www.avweb.com
Well either the customers are going to get screwed out of a bunch of money or they will go completely under and get bought out which will also screw their customers out of a bunch of money. Unless something is in stock and shipping today I’m not sure why anyone would place future orders with them. It’s not going to be a fun trip through bankruptcy and not nearly as rosy as the press release makes it sound.Van's Files For Chapter 11 Protection
Van’s Aircraft has filed for Chapter 11 protection while it reorganizes with the goal of maintaining existing services and emerging as a solvent company again. In a statement posted late...
It looks as of they are committed to continuing to shop kit's and parts long term.
I would not even call it somewhat comparable. They are very different aircraft.
Which trips through bankruptcy are "fun"?
Well , both are pretty much the only somewhat affordable 4 seaters ( albeit TSI is more like 3+) , one cruises at 140 kts, the other around 180 with higher gross and more room and so on … different planes for sure but these 2 are pretty much the only options in that category …
The business is very viable. Vans got hit with two huge issues that led to this. If just one had not occurred they would have been fine. Issue one was their quick build kits were improperly primed by a sub contractor and a large number had to be tossed and many delivered kits replaced. Issue two was kit demand soared so much they outsourced a large number of parts to a company using a laser cutting process. For reasons yet known these parts are developing micro cracks around rivet holes. Engineers seem to feel it’s not a issue but Vans has committed to replacing the parts at a massive expense.
Problem is, Vans QC shoulda caught it. The contracts I deal with say “if you catch a parts problem, I’m responsible. If you accept and use the parts, it is your problem” or words to that effect.
How do you catch a lie until it's exposed? By then it may be too late. We don't know that the contractor lied, but I do know of another company that found out a bit late that a contracting company said they were producing parts in the USA, when in reality they were producing them in Mexico with different quality standards and relabeling them after bringing them across the border. Stuff happens.
Isn't there a 3rd significant issue: reservation holders had prices locked-in that were not economically feasible for Van's to fill after significant inflation in material and labor costs. This is why current reservation holders are being given the option of paying current (and they better be economically viable) prices.
By having QA/QC oversight on your subcontractors whose express purpose is to catch this kind of thing *before* it causes problems like we have now. As for the example of fraud you posted, same-same.
Tooling for ramping up production...maybe production staff also? Sounds like they didn't transition well to mass production.
Oh, I know, but I'm thinking something broke down there.
It is prudent for any business to track/evaluate incoming shipments for quantity, adherence to specs, etc. Vans didn’t and got badly burned. OR they intentionally accepted the parts at their own risk, some of which they effectively passed to their customers.
Or they did and the sample ratio wasn't good enough? There's more than one way for things to go wrong.
www.kitplanes.com
Usually found via x-ray, dye penetrate or eddy current.
I’m familiar with all those types inspections and have used them myself countless times in numerous aircraft production and maintenance programs.
Your extensive experience notwithstanding, even Vans has acknowledged that some are "truly worth worrying about[sic]," and mitigation is one of the contributors to their current situation.
I prefer pathetic, but yes indeed. M2 imprudent juicing has consequences.
I'm not really sure what point you're making, but if it's that you think Vans is going under, I'll take that bet. There's very little chance of that. Chapter 11 will allow them to cancel or reprice sooner unprofitable contracts and escape some debt. Vans has a profitable business, notwithstanding a few short-sighted financial decisions.The copium on this topic promises to be epic. I'm sure they've started deleting posts over on the ministry of truth on that other site. buh buh hangErs aRe fullz and gA is tHriVibin'
Tribal affinity for the toy notwithstanding, they weren't immune from the covid fomo that overtook all manners of living in this country since 2020, and now a good clip of folks are dealing with the receding tide. My question as a sleepy leopard on a tree patiently stalking the resale market, what the impact will be on the legacy support. This reorganization may lead to the outcome everybody is emotionally fighting, Glasair 2.0. I'm hoping with some loss of marquee support on the older lines, prices may adjust, though I feel it will be the aggregate consumer economy receding in 2024 that would have a more significant impact on EAB resale prices, than whatever final form this reorganization ends up materializing as.
Sucks for the order holders of incomplete kits, they're getting re-priced and subsequently stiffed. Straw poll on reddit says most of the fomos are letting the kits go if they get re-priced. Which they will. Lots of "RV grins" turned upside down, and not because they're doing acro.
Rvs are not going anywhere, but this was irrational exuberance, and the OEM got rolled up in their own imprudence. The value is still there, which is why glasair boy will make short work of this me thinks.
In general, I don't think the micro-cracking would generate a fleet wide "fracture critical" type issue as you mentioned. Unfortunately, with this type of construction rivet hole prep is everything and when its not you run into possibilities where those micro-cracks start to run beyond the rivet head and sometimes for several inches. The bad thing is it usually doesn't happen for several years then you start to get smoking rivets or multiple cracks on each skin. Imagine where Vans may have been if they didn't stop it at the build level and had to deal with field level performance issues which probably would cost 3x more vs the cost of replacing the raw parts at the time of discovery.
That *is* the situation with builders who progressed rapidly and with a substantial inventory of quick-build kits. Van's had the opportunity to pump the brakes hard something like a year, year and a half ago and basically told people to build-on. So there was a 6-12 month period where Vans was knowingly distributing flawed parts and telling builders "nothing to see here". That's what turned a $3M problem into a $10M problem.
