Using nexus on Instrument ride?

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mxalix258

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mxalix258
I have Garmin pilot on my nexus 7, along with a yoke mount. The airplane I fly doesn't have GPS or DME, and was wondering if it'd be acceptable to have my nexus 7 along for situational awareness in the plane? or do you think the DPE would have a problem with it?

I'll probably just have to ask my instructor how the examiner is with Ipads and such, but figured I'd post the question on here first.

Thanks!
 
Situational awareness yes, a crutch for not knowing how to use the primary nav system, no. Expect the strong possibility it will "fail" during your checkride.
 
flyingron said:
Situational awareness yes, a crutch for not knowing how to use the primary nav system, no. Expect the strong possibility it will "fail" during your checkride.
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Agreed on all counts. Also, most DPE's are particularly happy if you use it to the max extent practical during the Primary Flight Instrument Failure ("partial panel") approach task -- shows good judgment. In fact, I know a few DPE's who will bust you on judgment if you don't try to use it during that portion of the ride.
 
flyingron said:
Situational awareness yes, a crutch for not knowing how to use the primary nav system, no. Expect the strong possibility it will "fail" during your checkride.
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:yeahthat:

VOR and pilotage will certainly be tested.

Cheers
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed on all counts. Also, most DPE's are particularly happy if you use it to the max extent practical during the Primary Flight Instrument Failure ("partial panel") approach task -- shows good judgment. In fact, I know a few DPE's who will bust you on judgment if you don't try to use it during that portion of the ride.
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Busted for handling the situation and flying the plane but forgetting to pull your toy out during a max workload event?

I don't buy that one. If true the DPE should be fired. Can you site the PTS section requiring use of personal electronics in order to pass?
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed on all counts. Also, most DPE's are particularly happy if you use it to the max extent practical during the Primary Flight Instrument Failure ("partial panel") approach task -- shows good judgment. In fact, I know a few DPE's who will bust you on judgment if you don't try to use it during that portion of the ride.
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That reminds me of my private checkride.

I had a Garmin 96c on the yoke. At one point, he asked me my ground speed and I answered "118 kts" after a glance down...he said "Excellent use of available resources...how long to your next checkpoint?" I checked, it was 20nm away and immediately answered "10 minutes...120 is 2 miles per minute, and 2 knots isn't worth doing a detailed calculation for..." Also got a compliment for appropriately using an estimate.
 
The DPEs around here are getting quite used to, and accepting of pad devices. I have transitioned to using a Nexus 7 tablet with Garmin Pilot for my charts and plates as well. You probably won't have any issues and you can use any device as an aid to situational awareness.
 
Pilotage no, electronic navigation yes.
 
Captain said:
Busted for handling the situation and flying the plane but forgetting to pull your toy out during a max workload event?

I don't buy that one. If true the DPE should be fired. Can you site the PTS section requiring use of personal electronics in order to pass?
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No, and I never said it did, but I can cite the PTS section which says that exercise of good judgment is a pass/fail criterion. See the section in the IR PTS on "Judgment Assessment Matrix". And every DPE I know considers failure to use all available tools to deal with an emergency to be unacceptably bad judgment.
 
What primary instrument could break that I'd need an iPad to replace and how the heck did I or any get a license before iPads? My poi t is if its REQUIRED to use to fly then how could anyone e get a license before they had them?

From your initial statement I see some instrument failing, me doing an awesome job partial panel, shooting the approach, using ATC and landing only to hear, "nice job. Too bad I have to bust you cause you didn't pull out your iPad."

That can't really be what you're saying but I can't find another way to read what you wrote.
 
And using "all available tools" doesn't mean you have to use everything in the world you have access to. There could be a Swiss Army knife in your bag and by your logic you'd have to not only pull it out sometime during the check ride, but use each and every 'tool' on it including the tooth pick and tweezers.

You only have to use tools at your disposal if you deem them appropriate. If I deem an iPad not necessary to handle my issue and I handle it fine without the iPad then who to second guess that? And I know for fact I can handle partial panel without an iPad because I've done it...and taught it. See the rub?
 
mxalix258 said:
I have Garmin pilot on my nexus 7, along with a yoke mount. The airplane I fly doesn't have GPS or DME, and was wondering if it'd be acceptable to have my nexus 7 along for situational awareness in the plane? or do you think the DPE would have a problem with it?

I'll probably just have to ask my instructor how the examiner is with Ipads and such, but figured I'd post the question on here first.

Thanks!
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Ask the DPE what they think of the idea. Personally I have no clue, but from the posts my bet is that different DPE have different ideas. I took my instrument ride in a G1000 plane and before the checkride my DPE made it clear to me and my CFII that on the VOR/PFD failure he expected me to use the magenta line.
 
Captain said:
And using "all available tools" doesn't mean you have to use everything in the world you have access to. There could be a Swiss Army knife in your bag and by your logic you'd have to not only pull it out sometime during the check ride, but use each and every 'tool' on it including the tooth pick and tweezers.
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I thought it would be patently obvious that what I meant is in an emergency you are expected to use every tool you have available which could be of help. So if an important screw comes loose, and you have that Swiss Army knife, you would be expected to use it. But here we're talking about loss of important flight instruments, and if you have a device which can substitute for those lost or supplement those remaining, you'd be exercising very bad judgment if you didn't try to use it. Is that clearer?
 
Maybe if you gave an example of a primary flight instrument that an iPad can replace.
 
I had a guy in the Army put his iPhone on the lower console during an instrument eval in the UH-60. Technically I could have made him turn it off due to EMI issues but instead I let him go with it. While his little Wing X, Foreflight or whatever was running was giving him good SA, it still had nothing to do with the eval. We don't do partial panel and rarely simulate a loss of NAV gear. He has to use the installed, certified equipment in the panel. There is no task in our Air Crew Training manual that states "Evaluate the student's use of a non certified iPhone for navigation." Is the use of these personal navigation devices easier than an analog, steam gauge cockpit? Yep, but until the regs or training manuals catch up to allow their use, it's a waste for evals.

Things are quickly changing though. I've been out for over a year and I hear now each crew is issued an iPad. Not sure if it's for charts or NAV or both. At least your tax payer's dollars are paying for something far cheaper than upgrading to a glass panel. :)
 
What if you pull out the iPad but don't have the right app...is that a bust?
 
Captain said:
What if you pull out the iPad but don't have the right app...is that a bust?
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(I am going to regret jumping in the middle of this)

You know you're being obstinate, and we get it, and doubtless many agree with you. On one side, you're not supposed to depend on easy mode gear during primary training because it inhibits learning pilotage (for example). On the other side, use of creative problem solving skills includes some thinking outside the box, particularly when the examiner is specifically trying to test your judgement and creative thinking under pressure.

You're right. The candidate is not required to have an iPad or android tablet with the requisite software; however, if such were aboard, it would show good judgement and creative thinking to suggest using one in an emergency, and I'm sure that the examiner would be interested in seeing how proficient the candidate was at using non-required tools, technologies, and techniques in a simulated emergency situation.

Ron didn't suggest that an examiner would fail a candidate for not HAVING an iPad, only that failing to consider all available tools in an emergency situation might indicate poor judgement.
 
Learned long ago, if something works, use it. If it doesn't work, get a bigger hammer or duct tape.

As a corollary after learning to fly, it doesn't work in flight, curse at it and use something that does.

Cheers
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed on all counts. Also, most DPE's are particularly happy if you use it to the max extent practical during the Primary Flight Instrument Failure ("partial panel") approach task -- shows good judgment. In fact, I know a few DPE's who will bust you on judgment if you don't try to use it during that portion of the ride.
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My iPad (I only have ForeFlight right now for aviation apps) wouldn't have helped with my partial panel on my checkride. He failed the vacuum system. So I got to shoot a GPS approach flying the little box. Tough life :rolleyes: I just used the 430 for heading, turn coordinator for level (and the 430 too) and altimeter for level. He really couldn't have made the partial panel any easier, though I think he realized that and changed it up for his later rides.


So even if you have the iPad/Nexus it may not help you.
 
Z06_Mir said:
My iPad (I only have ForeFlight right now for aviation apps) wouldn't have helped with my partial panel on my checkride. He failed the vacuum system. So I got to shoot a GPS approach flying the little box. Tough life :rolleyes: I just used the 430 for heading, turn coordinator for level (and the 430 too) and altimeter for level.
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Typical for both practical tests and reality -- how often do you have simultaneous vacuum pump and GPS failures?

He really couldn't have made the partial panel any easier, though I think he realized that and changed it up for his later rides.
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There are a few examiners who pile on one failure after another until they have reduced the examinee to an absolute minimum of equipment, but the FAA does not encourage this, and active instructors generally know and avoid such DPE's and their unrealistic testing.
 
ChrisK said:
Ron didn't suggest that an examiner would fail a candidate for not HAVING an iPad, only that failing to consider all available tools in an emergency situation might indicate poor judgement.
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ChrisK gets it. Captain doesn't.
 
I submit you don't know me or what I 'get'.

You said you know DPE's (a few) who 'will bust you if you don't try to use a nexus during partial panel' on a checkride.

Those words are very clear and don't leave much wiggle room. I don't believe that to be true and if it is true I take great offense at the notion. Is using 'all available resources' a good thing? Sure. No issue there. But to pick one thing and make the ride pass / fail over the use of that with zero regulatory requirement for its demonstration is not how I know the FAA.

I also 'get' that on this thread we have two type A personalities who both refuse to budge on the point. I'm pretty sure I'm right here and Ron overstated his point...but that's what a type A would be expected to say...
 
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Captain said:
I submit you don't know me or what I 'get'.

You said you know DPE's (a few) who 'will bust you if you don't try to use a nexus during partial panel' on a checkride.

Those words are very clear and don't leave much wiggle room. I don't believe that to be true and if it is true I take great offense at the notion. Is using 'all available resources' a good thing? Sure. No issue there. But to pick one thing and make the ride pass / fail over the use of that with zero regulatory requirement for its demonstration is not how I know the FAA.

I also 'get' that on this thread we have two type A personalities who both refuse to budge on the point. I'm pretty sure I'm right here and Ron overstated his point...but that's what a type A would be expected to say...
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I didn't overstate anything. You distorted and tortured what I said into something a) totally nonsensical and b) utterly different from what I said.

And you misquoted me above, too.

Good night.
 
Ron Levy said:
I didn't overstate anything. You distorted and tortured what I said into something a) totally nonsensical and b) utterly different from what I said.

And you misquoted me above, too.

Good night.
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Whatever. Good night.
 
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I'm kinda with the Captain on this one. We're gonna fail someone because they didn't use a piece of non certified equipment not installed in the aircraft but yet someone who doesn't even have an iPad passes? The DPE would be applying two different standards. You have one applicant who brings his iPad so the DPE fails the entire NAV system but the guy who doesn't bring one he only fails one portion of the NAV system? What are the odds of a total NAV failure. Its two different systems. On top of that, what are the odds of the aircraft's GPS signal failing but yet the iPad has a signal?

Also isn't the point of partial panel to see if the applicant can still fly IMC while missing a primary instrument? How is a DPE grading a partial panel if the applicant is using an iPads quasi glass panel to make up for the loss of a primary instrument? Once again two different standards. One guy passes partial panel because he has an iPad but another guy fails because he doesn't have one.
 
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McFly gets it. Cap'n Ron doesn't.

(Sorry, couldn't resist)
 
Velocity173 said:
I'm kinda with the Captain on this one. We're gonna fail someone because they didn't use a piece of non certified equipment not installed in the aircraft but yet someone who doesn't even have an iPad passes? The DPE would be applying two different standards. You have one applicant who brings his iPad so the DPE fails the entire NAV system but the guy who doesn't bring one he only fails one portion of the NAV system? What are the odds of a total NAV failure. Its two different systems. On top of that, what are the odds of the aircraft's GPS signal failing but yet the iPad has a signal?

Also isn't the point of partial panel to see if the applicant can still fly IMC while missing a primary instrument? How is a DPE grading a partial panel if the applicant is using an iPads quasi glass panel to make up for the loss of a primary instrument? Once again two different standards. One guy passes partial panel because he has an iPad but another guy fails because he doesn't have one.
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You and Captain need to review the PTS regarding the special interest areas and the Judgment Assessment Matrix. Without understanding that exercising good judgment is a pass/fail criterion, you won't understand the issue. In an emergency, neglecting to use a piece of equipment you have available which could help you deal with that emergency is considered unsatisfactory performance.
 
Oy vey,

Using 'all available equipment' is open to interpretation. Its based on the outcome. If an applicant successfully handles the partial panel with WHATEVER equipment / procedures they choose its a pass. No examiner is going to see a successful event during a check ride and bust them anyway because they didn't use the nexus that the examiner thought would be better.

Your statement flies in the face of that and for some reason you refuse to admit that point. I can review all the PTS and matrixes in the he world and nothing is going to change that fact.

...puzzling.
 
Ron Levy said:
You and Captain need to review the PTS regarding the special interest areas and the Judgment Assessment Matrix. Without understanding that exercising good judgment is a pass/fail criterion, you won't understand the issue. In an emergency, neglecting to use a piece of equipment you have available which could help you deal with that emergency is considered unsatisfactory performance.
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It's still applying an unrealistic standard. The DPE didn't fail both my GPS and VOR on my checkride. What are the odds? If he did is he suppose to ask me if I have a piece of equipment (iPad) to allow me to use all available resources? If all my NAV failed I'd think better judgment would be to find VMC or request a radar approach than to bust out something non certified. Just because my NAV failed doesn't automatically mean emergency non certified measures. I can see a DPE failing someone for busting out their iPad when they had other "legal" options available. Is there a standard in the PTS that specifically says what NAV failure constitutes an emergency and only at that point are you allowed to use your non certified device?

Like I said the whole partial panel criteria makes no sense either. If these devices are allowed than someone could use it to make up for a primary instrument. I can see two different applicants.
"Dude I failed my checkride...partial panel."
"Oh man, good thing I brought my Dynon D1 pocket panel because it saved me on my ride."

It's two different standards and to allow someone to pass or fail because they have or dont have an optional piece of equipment is rediculas.
 
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McFly, you're clearly better at arguing this than me!

:)

Good post.
 
Captain said:
McFly, you're clearly better at arguing this than me!

:)

Good post.
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I think both of you guys are skating on thin ice.

PHO-10Aug03-241938.jpg
 
That might be the most insulting post I've ever read.
 
On another note, there is the story of a private pilot failing a check ride for using the pre-configurd generic check list on their iPad and not the one that came with the aircraft...
 
Ventucky Red said:
On another note, there is the story of a private pilot failing a check ride for using the pre-configurd generic check list on their iPad and not the one that came with the aircraft...
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Too bad he wasn't 'Partial Panel'. Then he would have passed with aces...

Use an iPad for normal ops...FAIL!

DON'T use an iPad during abnormal ops...FAIL!



Yes sir...that's the FAA Ron and I want. Don't agree? Ron can quote PTS and Sac Arrow can show you gay pictures. HAS to be true...
 
Ventucky Red said:
On another note, there is the story of a private pilot failing a check ride for using the pre-configurd generic check list on their iPad and not the one that came with the aircraft...
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That's not a valid bust unless the checklist s/he used did not cover the necessary items. There is nothing in the regulations or PTS saying you must use the aircraft manufacturer's checklist.
Private-Airplane PTS said:

Applicant’s Use of Checklists​
Throughout the practical test, the applicant is evaluated on the use​
of an approved manufacturer’s checklist or equivalent.
Click to expand...
 
Ron Levy said:
That's not a valid bust unless the checklist s/he used did not cover the necessary items. There is nothing in the regulations or PTS saying you must use the aircraft manufacturer's checklist.
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Oh, but there is something in the regs saying you HAVE to use a nexus????



CHECKLIST: Ah, whatever...

NEXUS: YES!!!! MUST USE OR FAIL!!!!!!!!
 
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I've never trolled in my life. This is a valid topic. Your position is an applicant with a nexus has a higher standard than one without.
 
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