Using nexus on Instrument ride?

[Ventucky Red]

That's not a valid bust unless the checklist s/he used did not cover the necessary items. There is nothing in the regulations or PTS saying you must use the aircraft manufacturer's checklist.

You're probably right however, here is the after incident report from the CP at the flight school to the other CFI's

So how does a pilot bust a check ride over a checklist?

One answer to how a personalized checklist can mousetrap a pilot on a checkride may be found in FAR 91.9: “No person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the certificating authority of the country of registry.”

Checklists are included in the approved flight manual (AFM). Note that the
Pilots Operating Handbook (POH) for most light aircraft built after 1975 is also designated as the FAA-AFM. Using checklists that don’t include all of the elements of the POH/AFM checklists can be evidence of a violation of FAR 91.9. The Practical Test Standards (PTS), the guide to the conduct of a checkride, gives the method to enforce the use of appropriate checklists. For example, for the task of Starting the Engine, one objective is to determine that the applicant utilizes the appropriate checklist for the engine start procedure.

Although not specifically defined, the FAA use of the term "appropriate” is also found in the Pilot’s Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (FAA-H-8083-25) in the discussion of the POH/AFM Normal Procedures, Section 4.

The general format of Section 4 consists of “several checklists that may include preflight inspection, before starting procedures, starting engine, before taxiing, taxiing, before takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, before landing, balked landing, after landing, and post flight procedures. To avoid missing important steps, always use the appropriate checklists when available. Consistent adherence to approved checklists is a sign of a disciplined and competent pilot” “Appropriate” is further emphasized by adding the term “approved.”

 

[SbestCFII]

Well said Ron. The DPE can only pass or fail an applicant based on the practical test standards for the test being taken. That's the absolute bottom line.

 

[SbestCFII]

Stories abound. The PTS calls for propr use of checklists. Any number of checklists are available for a given make/model of aircraft. The minimum items required for a checklist are those items in the POH/AFM. Surecheck, Chapps, owner-made, electronic, etc. are all OK to use. It's the pilot that has to show the "proper" use of the checklist that is of concern to the DPE.

 

[poadeleted20]

You're probably right however, here is the after incident report from the CP at the flight school to the other CFI's

I agree with your analysis that a checklist which is not at least as comprehensive as the AFM/POH checklist would not be considered "equivalent" and thus grounds for a bust. But my experience is that the commercially-produced checklists from outfits like SureCheck meet that standard, and I've never in over 40 years as a CFI heard of a DPE taking issue with one like that. In addition, many 141 schools use their own checklists, which are approved by the FSDO as part of their TCO -- clearly, those aren't from the POH/AFM but they are FAA-approved. However, if you make up your own personal abbreviated checklist which is less complete than the AFM/POH one, you are at risk of FAA criticism.

In any event, as SBest pointed out, how you use whatever checklist you bring to the practical test party is far more important that its source.

 

[ChrisK]

I've never trolled in my life. This is a valid topic. Your position is an applicant with a nexus has a higher standard than one without.

Now wait a tick sir. An applicant who brings a plane with an ADF receiver on an instrument ride is held to a higher standard than one who brings an aircraft without one. Isn't this similar?

 

[poadeleted20]

Now wait a tick sir. An applicant who brings a plane with an ADF receiver on an instrument ride is held to a higher standard than one who brings an aircraft without one.

Doesn't matter whether you have an ADF in the plane or not -- the standards are the same. You are just tested to those same standards using the different equipment you bring.

 

[Captain]

Now wait a tick sir. An applicant who brings a plane with an ADF receiver on an instrument ride is held to a higher standard than one who brings an aircraft without one. Isn't this similar?

Based on that quote it does seem I'm making that point, however my statement wasn't the best. It's misses my larger point. I'm all for a pilot being tested on all installed equipment.

I just don't think an examiner is going to pick a random piece of non-standard equipment (a nexus in this case) and demand the applicant demonstrate its use to comply with the judgement portion of the checkride. There are other means to deal with any failure a DPE can give and a successful ride shouldn't depend on which way a pilot chooses to handle a system failure.

Plus, I haven't even gotten into the nexus itself. Maybe it's not the pilots. Maybe the batteries are dead. Maybe there are no aviation apps on it. Way too many variables to make its use a pass / fail item.

That's my argument in a nut shell. Cap'n Ron disagrees and we are at an impass on this. The world of aviation is big enough for both of us. It's fine.

 

[poadeleted20]

Based on that quote it does seem I'm making that point, however my statement wasn't the best. It's misses my larger point. I'm all for a pilot being tested on all installed equipment.

I just don't think an examiner is going to pick a random piece of non-standard equipment (a nexus in this case) and demand the applicant demonstrate its use to comply with the judgement portion of the checkride. There are other means to deal with any failure a DPE can give and a successful ride shouldn't depend on which way a pilot chooses to handle a system failure.

Plus, I haven't even gotten into the nexus itself. Maybe it's not the pilots. Maybe the batteries are dead. Maybe there are no aviation apps on it. Way too many variables to make its use a pass / fail item.

That's my argument in a nut shell. Cap'n Ron disagrees and we are at an impass on this. The world of aviation is big enough for both of us. It's fine.

I do not disagree with Captain's analysis, only with his complete distortion and misquotation of what I said. Perhaps he believes if he distorts and misquotes what I said enough times, people will believe I actually said it. I hope he's wrong.

 

[Captain]

This has been about me misquoting you? Initially I copied and pasted. Here it is again... unmodified in any way:

Agreed on all counts. Also, most DPE's are particularly happy if you use it to the max extent practical during the Primary Flight Instrument Failure ("partial panel") approach task -- shows good judgment. In fact, I know a few DPE's who will bust you on judgment if you don't try to use it during that portion of the ride.

That last sentence is where I took issue. To me that implied you know examiners who will bust an applicant if they don't use their nexus.

I honestly do not want to distort your words. Also, I honestly don't understand how else to interpret your words.

 

[poadeleted20]

This has been about me misquoting you? Initially I copied and pasted. Here it is again... unmodified in any way:





That last sentence is where I took issue. To me that implied you know examiners who will bust an applicant if they don't use their nexus.

I honestly do not want to distort your words. Also, I honestly don't understand how else to interpret your words.

You did it again. Let me say it one last time -- if you have a device which can assist you in an emergency and you do not use it when that emergency arises, that's considered bad judgment and there examiners who will bust you for it. However, you keep saying things like:

I just don't think an examiner is going to pick a random piece of non-standard equipment (a nexus in this case) and demand the applicant demonstrate its use to comply with the judgement portion of the checkride.

Your position is an applicant with a nexus has a higher standard than one without.

NEXUS: YES!!!! MUST USE OR FAIL!!!!!!!!

...and those are all your own distortions of what I said.

I'm tired of your trolling, and will not respond further to it.

 

[Captain]

Disagreeing is NOT trolling.

Too bad you missed my quote saying you and I are at odds on this and that's okay as the world's big enough for both of us. For the life of me I can't see how using this forums software to quote you verbatim, word for word, can be seen as twisting your words. Whatever.