(UPDATE-BOUGHT A PLANE)Airplane NEWB - May need a plane for business,help me find the best option

ronnieh said:
Jared, I will be one of the ones that MetalCloud is referring to. That is not my intent. The fact that you are trying to use good judgement, explore all sides and hopefully make a good decision is the reason that I am posting. I have owned two aircraft and retired a few years ago from my last corporate gig flying a twin turboprop. So these points I will make are based on the aforementioned experience.
1. It will cost more to acquire, maintain and operate than you think. I would suggest you take what you figure is an all in cost and increase by 50%. There is nothing cheap about an aircraft but, the pilot. $10,000 surprises are not at all rare on small simple aircraft.
2. You will not break even using your aircraft for business.The best to hope for is you might mitigate some of the expense of ownership with business use. Keep in mind the IRS is very suspicious of small aircraft owned by individuals for use in a business that is not owned by the aircraft owner. You will need meticulous records. Many here will chime in with "never happened to them". Check with your CPA and see what he says. BTDT
3a. You will cancel a lot of trips, many on short notice.
b.You will spend time at airports other than your destination.
c. You will be stuck at your destination perhaps, overnight.
These will be the result of both weather and mechanical issues. It WILL happen, more than you think. There is a saying, "Time to spare, go by air"
4.The few companies that allow individually owned private aircraft to be used for business, normally require large liability policies with the business as named insured. Might want to check on this. Might should confirm the company will even approve of this practice, most will not. Also check on your life insurance as the rates and coverage may be affected.
5. One or two posters made mention of the word safe. This will bring a howl from the low time pilots. The consensus on POA over the many discussions and outright arguments by those that may be more qualified is that is is in the same category as riding a motorcycle on the street. BTW, I have years on street bikes and both the wife and I have been mostly unscathed. As much as I love motorcycles I would never argue that street bikes are safe. I would not put either activity in the category of suicidal but, it is a factor. Small aircraft, low time private pilots and weather is not a particularly safe combination.
Having said all of this, I hope you can put together something that will work for you. General aviation needs more like you searching for ways to make GA work. It is a tough road with many potholes and road blocks. Best of luck! Oh, and keep us updated. There is a lot of good info on this site.
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Thank you for your detailed reply and things to look out for.
 
Lachlan said:
You may just end up “impressing” your prospective clients into another choice that looks more affordable. As in, “WOW, no wonder JimmBobb’s Metal Shax are so expensive- their salesmen drive AEROPLANES!” Just something to think about. ;)
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Well I'm in a very fortunate situation with what I sell. When comparing same spec'd buildings of larger sizes like 4,000sqft+ I have rarely if ever been outbid. So I see what your saying but fortunately its not going to be an issue with our prices.
 
RyanShort1 said:
I'd seriously look at a Cherokee 6 or Cessna 182. I had a student who owned a Cherokee Six and it was doable...
I'd stick with a fairly rugged fixed gear plane at first while you learn, may be a bit of a speed compromise, but it will get the job done and if you want to get something else later, sell it and go for it.
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I'll look into the Cherokee more
 
iamtheari said:
As I pointed out in another recent thread of this sort, your actual use case may vary wildly from what you imagine today. The passengers you buy a plane to accommodate may hate flying, for example. But you are doing the right thing by defining your mission, exploring the contours of it, and then evaluating different planes that can accomplish it. Don't get too caught up in the financial justification. Very few businesses can really make the numbers work out on paper, much less in reality. But there is much more to life than the bottom line.

I got into flying because, since I was a kid, I wanted to...and I finally had the time and money at the same time to make it happen. I knew that I would have business uses for an airplane, but it has not been a financial justification at any point. I won't get into that side of things as there are as many ways to approach the topic as people approaching it and you need to make your own business decisions. My personal approach for business travel in my airplane is to pretend I had driven instead, but much faster. Clients pay for less time, less hotel costs, and the same mileage costs as if I had driven, so they are happy.

I pay a little out of my own pocket for the privilege, but what it buys me is priceless. Since I bought my Arrow (original 180hp model, cruises at 130 KTAS) a little over two years ago, I have logged a little over 200 hours of cross-country time in it. The equivalent driving time would have been about 600 hours. That means that I have averaged 200 hours per year of my life back instead of staring at a windshield. Also, by making smart decisions about when to fly vs. drive (and always leaving a departure time margin wide enough on all "must be there" trips to take off, change my mind, land, get in the car, and still arrive on time), I also have much less stress from the time I spend staring at a windshield because I avoid hazards like icy roads, drunk drivers, and debris falling off of vehicles in front of me. It also makes me more effective at my job to have flown 1 hour to a meeting rather than driving 3 hours. It's just win-win-win all day long for me. The joy of flying. Less stress. Better results. And the equivalent of 25 eight-hour days of my life back every year.

Don't get too caught up in speed, either. When I was learning to fly, I made a spreadsheet with one row per what I thought would be a frequent destination and one column per airplane speed plus one for driving. For example:

Dest. / car / 105kt / 130kt / 150kt / 175kt
CityA / 3:00 / 1:09 / 0:56 / 0:48 / 0:42
CityB / 5:30 / 2:21 / 1:54 / 1:39 / 1:25
CityC / 9:30 / 4:13 / 3:24 / 2:57 / 2:32

This really helped me decide how much speed was worth it to me. Each marginal speed increase costs more while saving less time than the previous one did. This led me to capitalize on a great opportunity to buy an Arrow with a long history of local ownership and maintenance by people I trust. The cost of finding, inspecting, buying, and operating a 150-knot plane was not worth it according to my matrix.
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I really liked your reply, also that spreadsheet really helps put things into perspective... Im Really starting to like the N/A Lance even more, think it would work to learn in it? Or how long a runway would I need though, Is that something I am not taking into account enough? I dont really want a 3,000' runway, plus if that was a requirement I imagine that would narrow things down land wise alot in the area we want to be in.
 
Consider the time driving to the airport and back in your trip planning. Also the time to preflight and fuel the plane. It can add up.

And be willing to hop in the car and drive at the drop of the hat when the weather sucks, the plane has a mechanical issue, or you arent feeling 100%.

But, it won’t be cost justified and who cares. It’ll be way more cost justified than most of the rest of us.
 
Shawn said:
Don't let the naysayers deter you.

I got my PPP, IFR and bought a 182 for "fun" but in reality is has become and invaluable business travel tool. I travel up and down California regularly and it has been a Godsend.

You will never be able to "justify" the cost financially but what it does buy is time, freedom and flexibility. You can come and go on YOUR schedule, not the airlines and traffic as you discovered on your trip with your boss. Only you can determine that value to you.

Now with that, you can never rely on a single engine GA plane for a daily commuter. It is a luxury when able and conditions permit. Not something that you can rely on every trip. Even living in the great weather climate of CA probably 40% of my trips are still via Southwest or other means for one reason or another...but the 60% ish that I can fly myself is great to have.

You have a very doable budget, but it will not buy you everything. Live everything else in life...Better, cheaper, faster...pick two.

For reference, I have a 182 and at times wish I had a faster plane on ling X-Country trips...but that is balanced out by comfort, space, and useful load. You will need to comprise on something at your price point. It really is the Ford F-150 of the air.
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Also like your reply.. Ive read really good things about the 182, how does the 180 compare? Reason I ask is I know a guy that has a 1959 180 for sale for 45k and I believe its in good shape..
 
Also no one has answered one of my previous many questions lol. About the interiors and doing work to the plane yourself.. Totally fine, frowned upon, illegal or what?
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
I really liked your reply, also that spreadsheet really helps put things into perspective... Im Really starting to like the N/A Lance even more, think it would work to learn in it? Or how long a runway would I need though, Is that something I am not taking into account enough? I dont really want a 3,000' runway, plus if that was a requirement I imagine that would narrow things down land wise alot in the area we want to be in.
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I have flown a little in a turbocharged, retractable-gear Saratoga. Honestly that plane amounts to paying a lot of money to haul a few empty seats around in my mission. But the comfort level is just fantastic. If I needed the seats, the PA-32 would be a great choice. I think there would be nothing wrong with learning in a Cherokee Six. I would try to get some time in a much lighter plane so you get a more nuanced feel for the controls than you will at the controls of that Mack Truck of the Sky. (I started out in a J-3 Cub and it has made transitioning to other planes relatively easy.)

I can't speak to the performance on grass or anything, but some information online indicates a PA-32-300 will take off in 900 feet and land in 630 feet of runway. Triple both numbers for a safety margin and you're still well under 3,000 feet.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Also like your reply.. Ive read really good things about the 182, how does the 180 compare? Reason I ask is I know a guy that has a 1959 180 for sale for 45k and I believe its in good shape..
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45k is a total rip-off for a Cessna 180. Can you give me the guy's number so I can call and let him know he is totally out of line and also that I want to make a deposit on the plane?
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Also no one has answered one of my previous many questions lol. About the interiors and doing work to the plane yourself.. Totally fine, frowned upon, illegal or what?
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Some preventive maintenance can legally be done and signed off by a private pilot. Oil changes, tire changes, etc. Some work must be signed off by a licensed mechanic or even a mechanic with inspection authority. Some of that work can be done by the owner and then signed off by a mechanic. But you don't always save money or time that way. Here's a sample rate sheet from an FBO:

Mechanic time: $90/hr
If you watch: $140/hr
If you help: $200/hr

I don't know about interiors. The only person I know who did his own interior is an A&P and said that the results were worth it but doing the actual work was a major headache.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Also like your reply.. Ive read really good things about the 182, how does the 180 compare? Reason I ask is I know a guy that has a 1959 180 for sale for 45k and I believe its in good shape..
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The 180 is a great airplane but I wouldn't recommend that you start out in that. Unless you find a really good tailwheel instructor I suspect you are way too likely to bend it in your first 100 hours. The 180 is more like a 206 inside as compared to a 182.
 
Ignore the naysayers but don't expect to ALWAYS save time. Do it because you want to and it's fun. I fly to one location for work occasionally and have found that most of the time when I drive, it's about 3 hours from my office to theirs. When I fly, it's about 1 hour and 45 minutes. Between the pulling the plane out, preflight, courtesy cars, etc. I don't save a lot of time. Now when I go on vacation, I save about 8 hours of driving each way. :) It makes the weekend getaway possible.

*EDIT* I forgot to mention, don't do it to save money because you won't. However, work can help pay for the fun of flying instead of driving.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Also no one has answered one of my previous many questions lol. About the interiors and doing work to the plane yourself.. Totally fine, frowned upon, illegal or what?
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Doing upgrades is expensive. You best bet is to find a plane that has the interior and panel that you want but has a run out engine that needs a rebuild. You retain much more value in an engine rebuild but loose 50% right off the back with upgrades. That is what I did in my 182 and got twice the plane that I was anticipating I would get for my budget since many people are afraid of run out engines for some reason.
 
lancie00 said:
Ignore the naysayers but don't expect to ALWAYS save time. Do it because you want to and it's fun. I fly to one location for work occasionally and have found that most of the time when I drive, it's about 3 hours from my office to theirs. When I fly, it's about 1 hour and 45 minutes. Between the pulling the plane out, preflight, courtesy cars, etc. I don't save a lot of time.
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My regular flight is 250nm XC trips. I have timed it out...door to door it is about the same if I fly GA or if I fly Commercial. It is a wash...and usually cheper to fly commercial.

Where the time savings is valuable for me is being on my own schedule. Not having to worry about racing to the airport to get through security, leave traffic buffer time, ability to leave early or stay later, spending more time with a client...owing my own time is the value for me.

I can get done a meeting...then decide if I wanna get lunch...or make a pit stop...or head home early if able.

Get-there-itis also has its negative effects when flying commercial as well as GA.
 
iamtheari said:
I have flown a little in a turbocharged, retractable-gear Saratoga. Honestly that plane amounts to paying a lot of money to haul a few empty seats around in my mission. But the comfort level is just fantastic. If I needed the seats, the PA-32 would be a great choice. I think there would be nothing wrong with learning in a Cherokee Six. I would try to get some time in a much lighter plane so you get a more nuanced feel for the controls than you will at the controls of that Mack Truck of the Sky. (I started out in a J-3 Cub and it has made transitioning to other planes relatively easy.)

I can't speak to the performance on grass or anything, but some information online indicates a PA-32-300 will take off in 900 feet and land in 630 feet of runway. Triple both numbers for a safety margin and you're still well under 3,000 feet.
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So you would take a Cherokee 6/300 over a Lance because of the fixed landing gear? Looks like a decent 6/300 can be had for around 75k ish.
 
iamtheari said:
Some preventive maintenance can legally be done and signed off by a private pilot. Oil changes, tire changes, etc. Some work must be signed off by a licensed mechanic or even a mechanic with inspection authority. Some of that work can be done by the owner and then signed off by a mechanic. But you don't always save money or time that way. Here's a sample rate sheet from an FBO:

Mechanic time: $90/hr
If you watch: $140/hr
If you help: $200/hr

I don't know about interiors. The only person I know who did his own interior is an A&P and said that the results were worth it but doing the actual work was a major headache.
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Well some of these planes look almost like the plane equivalent of a 70's shag van... It wouldnt be hard to rip carpet out and redo that plus the head liner and then either put new seats in or take them to get redone...
 
Shawn said:
Doing upgrades is expensive. You best bet is to find a plane that has the interior and panel that you want but has a run out engine that needs a rebuild. You retain much more value in an engine rebuild but loose 50% right off the back with upgrades. That is what I did in my 182 and got twice the plane that I was anticipating I would get for my budget since many people are afraid of run out engines for some reason.
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What would I want as far as panel upgrades, I knew a little about planes but I know NOTHING about the instruments and panels really... Are there portables you can buy and mount on anything that make a big difference or is it plane by plane situations?
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
So you would take a Cherokee 6/300 over a Lance because of the fixed landing gear? Looks like a decent 6/300 can be had for around 75k ish.
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Fixed landing gear will probably save you a bunch of trouble for your first 200 hours. If you want to upgrade later, probably not too hard.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
What would I want as far as panel upgrades, I knew a little about planes but I know NOTHING about the instruments and panels really... Are there portables you can buy and mount on anything that make a big difference or is it plane by plane situations?
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Knowing what I know now...my minimum equipment list is an IFR capable plane with a two axis autopilot (meaning it holds altitude and heading) for regular cross country trips. For IFR operations (which you will ultimately need IFR for your missions to be practical), I would want a Garmin 430 GPS or better. For IFR to fly via GPS, it needs to be a certified panel mount unit. While portables can be used for added situational awareness, they can not be used as a primary source of navigation in IFR ops. You will need (and want IMO) a legal IFR GPS unit

Yes, you can hand fly a plane...yes you can navigate by VOR and lesser GPS units...but after 5 years of XC trips, that is my minimums in a plane that I am gonna purchase as a practical traveling machine. Then you can add the portables like ipads and EFBs for added situational awareness.

Adding a GPS or Autopilot is usually prohibitively expensive in your budget range...let someone else take that depreciation hit.
 
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Jared Kornelsen said:
What would I want as far as panel upgrades, I knew a little about planes but I know NOTHING about the instruments and panels really... Are there portables you can buy and mount on anything that make a big difference or is it plane by plane situations?
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Others can give more specifics, but I'd say get at least a basic IFR capable panel - better if you can find something with a Garmin 430 or better.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Well some of these planes look almost like the plane equivalent of a 70's shag van... It wouldnt be hard to rip carpet out and redo that plus the head liner and then either put new seats in or take them to get redone...
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The hard part is that there are a lot of little pieces so it's tedious and you have to calculate the weight and balance and submit appropriate paperwork, which is all squarely in the A&P-only territory. You could probably do it yourself and have the A&P sign off on it, but I would talk to the A&P you plan to use before ordering anything.
 
RyanShort1 said:
The 180 is a great airplane but I wouldn't recommend that you start out in that. Unless you find a really good tailwheel instructor I suspect you are way too likely to bend it in your first 100 hours. The 180 is more like a 206 inside as compared to a 182.
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The 180 cabin is identical to the early 182 cabin. The 182 got a swept tail in 1960 and a wider cabin in 1962.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Also like your reply.. Ive read really good things about the 182, how does the 180 compare? Reason I ask is I know a guy that has a 1959 180 for sale for 45k and I believe its in good shape..
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I haven't seen a 180 for sale for less than 70k in the past 6 months with the average around 110k and climbing. Send me his contact info if you don't mind. :)

They're really not even close to beginner planes. I got into mine with 100 hours of tailwheel time in a Cessna 172TW which is a notoriously difficult taildragger, and the 180 is still kicking my ass. That's not to say it can't be done... but it is a LOT of airplane.

I wouldn't trade my Skywagon for anything in the world, but if anything happened to it, I'd be replacing it with a 206 because of the difficulty of finding 180's and its growing harder.

They sure do look good though :).
IMG_20180613_203514-EFFECTS.jpg
 
iamtheari said:
That means that I have averaged 200 hours per year of my life back instead of staring at a windshield.
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I agree flying is faster, however I would have to think hard about 'getting time back'.
Many many hours have been spent staring at computer screens, maps, tablets, phones, and other devices while training, planning, weather checking. Also driving to airports, pre-flights, etc., the list goes on.
Would I rather be doing all than instead of staring at a car windshield amongst the crazy drivers?
Hells yeah....and I'll continue to do so.

Fly because you need to.
(but I don't mean physically)

p.s. Airplanes rule :rockon:
 
Loving all the replies! I'll see about getting the 180 guys number, I know him through my boss and didnt get his number the other day.

Lets change this up a little.. Lets assume my kids do not care for flying and the wife and kids would rather road trip in a car, which I also love, and the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
 
First, get your PPL and at least start out in a rented airplane. Can't beat a 172 or Cherokee to start that out with. Get past the written and solo, and then you will have a good idea on what you might want to purchase. I would go for a four place, fixed pitch airplane - 172, Warrior, Archer, Sundowner, etc. After you get your PPL, use your plane to get your IR.

At that point, you will be ready for a complex aircraft (could be just a constant speed prop). I would also form a LLC as the owner of your airplane and have your company reimburse the LLC for the use of the plane instead of you directly.

Flying small GA alot like hunting or fishing - I definitely don't hunt or fish because it is a cheap way to feed my family. Same with flying - it is NOT cost effective, but it can gain you efficiency and give you more hours in a week in which to get work done. That is hard to quantify, but there is an intrinsic value. But accountants don't like to hear about that!
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Loving all the replies! I'll see about getting the 180 guys number, I know him through my boss and didnt get his number the other day.

Lets change this up a little.. Lets assume my kids do not care for flying and the wife and kids would rather road trip in a car, which I also love, and the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
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Lancair. Definitely not a plane that a new pilot needs to be in lol
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
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For a newer pilot, my vote would be: RV-4,6,7,8,9 (if the speed still matters)
 
Hey guys, remember that it sounds like this guy is in West TX. Home of everything overpriced... although I have seen a few possible bargins on aircraft out there.

I fly through there every week and there aren't tons of instructors in the area, either. Even renting a 172 out there is expensive.
http://www.omniaero.net/the-fleet/

Owning might actually be preferable if one plans on using it long term.
 
While window and daydreaming is fun...if you are serious about this endeavor, go get your PPL first THEN go buy a plane. You can research till your eyes bleed, but until you start getting into the air, you will not know what will be truly important to YOU. It falls under the you don't know what you don't know yet category.

While there is nothing wrong with purchasing a plane THEN starting your PPL...you have a specific mission and will need to make SOME compromises to accomplish that in your budget and that will be hard to quantify right outta the gate.

Unless you are fine with flipping planes if your priorities change, but buy your second plane first and buy once, cry once!
 
DesertNomad said:
On the other hand, if I was a client and you flew in, I would assume your company has high fees and is not careful and efficient with money.
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Ranchers and oilfield operators in West Texas have seen airplanes before. They know it's a large area and that operating an aircraft is a time and efficiency tool.
 
The 182 has about 1000hrs SMOH and it has a three blade prop they put on new about 2-3years ago with about 200-300 hrs. Garmin 340 audio panel 4 place audio, kx155 with glide slope, and it has 2 radios, no gps though.
 
Shawn said:
While window and daydreaming is fun...if you are serious about this endeavor, go get your PPL first THEN go buy a plane. You can research till your eyes bleed, but until you start getting into the air, you will not know what will be truly important to YOU. It falls under the you don't know what you don't know yet category.

While there is nothing wrong with purchasing a plane THEN starting your PPL...you have a specific mission and will need to make SOME compromises to accomplish that in your budget and that will be hard to quantify right outta the gate.

Unless you are fine with flipping planes if your priorities change, but buy your second plane first and buy once, cry once!
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Jared Kornelsen said:
The 182 has about 1000hrs SMOH and it has a three blade prop they put on new about 2-3years ago with about 200-300 hrs. Garmin 340 audio panel 4 place audio, kx155 with glide slope, and it has 2 radios, no gps though.
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That might be a good deal for someone, especially if the dry west Texas heat has been kind and there are no major corrosion issues.
 
I'm in Texas as well... and just flew a business trip out to Odessa (ODO). I got my certificate 3 years ago and though it was "taking a large bite" I bought a Cessna 210. It's a six seater that basically is the "pickup truck of the skies." I haul four people and equipment all over the country in it. (Leaving tomorrow for Montana from Fort Worth). Operating cost is higher than some of the other options mentioned ($200/hr), but it's about as fast as a SR22 (though not as sporty or "cool"). Can carry a LOT more.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Loving all the replies! I'll see about getting the 180 guys number, I know him through my boss and didnt get his number the other day.

Lets change this up a little.. Lets assume my kids do not care for flying and the wife and kids would rather road trip in a car, which I also love, and the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
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If you don't need six seats get a V35 Bonanza. It will do fine on a grass strip which while I'm sure people do it is not ideal with a Cirrus. If you're serious about having a grass strip that does require more thought to your choices.
 
Glen R said:
If you don't need six seats get a V35 Bonanza. It will do fine on a grass strip which while I'm sure people do it is not ideal with a Cirrus. If you're serious about having a grass strip that does require more thought to your choices.
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Think learning in a V35 would be feasible?
 
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