Unable to cancel HFR

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

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Dave Taylor
Let's say you are given a clearance and hold for release at a non-towered airport in good vmc. For some reason you then decide you would like to depart vfr. Either you cannot reach the controller anymore (this happens to me at one airport where I have a good signal in the first part of the taxi but then the controller may drop out at the runway end. Or, it looks like waiting will result in a huge delay and departing vfr & getting a new clearance airborne is going to be much more practical.

Do you need to cancel or otherwise communicate this (somehow) to ATC or can you legally go, and sort it out airborne?
 
Right out of the AIM in Departure Procedures.

"2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure."

I never get my clearance on the ground if it is VFR at an uncontrolled field. Just time wasted sitting in the runup area.
 
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So we 'should' cancel but it is not a requirement - very helpful, thanks.
As is the code information.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Do you need to cancel or otherwise communicate this (somehow) to ATC or can you legally go, and sort it out airborne?
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It's your legal responsibility to cancel that IFR before the time specified in your release (the part that says "If not airborne by 1245, contact ATC no later than 1250 with intentions."). Otherwise, ATC is required to assume you either crashed on takeoff or went lost comm, and take appropriate actions to cover both contingencies (e.g., call the sheriff to check for a column of smoke near the airport, and start clearing a 91.185(c) hole through the airspace all the way to your destination). If you just take off VFR and do whatever you feel like without ATC knowing what you're doing, the pain that inflicts on ATC will be transferred back to you via the FSDO.

So, if you decide after receiving your release that you don't want to make this flight under IFR (either go VFR on your own or not go at all), you must find a means of communicating that to ATC and confirming they've received it (IOW, not just squawking 1200 and hoping they see it). On the ground, there are a lot of options, but once you take off, the options become fewer, so choose wisely.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
Let's say you are given a clearance and hold for release at a non-towered airport ...................... Either you cannot reach the controller anymore (this happens to me at one airport where I have a good signal in the first part of the taxi but then the controller may drop out at the runway end. .........
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How would you expect to receive the IFR release if you're in a position where you can't reach the controller?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
How would you expect to receive the IFR release if you're in a position where you can't reach the controller?
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I've been at airports where there's a good RCO signal on the ramp, but you lose it out at the end of the runway. At an airport like that, after getting the release on the ramp, if you decided out at the end of the runway that you didn't really want to go IFR, you'd have to taxi back to the ramp to communicate by RCO, and I gather that's what the OP is trying to avoid. Of course, these days, cell phones work just about anywhere, so you can always pull that out and call either the ATC facility directly (if you have the number), the national IFR clearance number (888-766-8267), or FSS (800-WX-BRIEF) to communicate your intentions. However, without that cell phone, you're going to have to taxi to wherever on the airport the RCO works to do that.
 
If you depart the airport VFR before the clearance void/report time can't you just climb up VFR and call them on the assigned frequency as if you were flying the release and say "29AB departed KABC VFR, would like to cancel IFR."? :dunno: Seems as it would satisfy requirements to me with no delays or taxis back to the ramp.
 
Cell service is not always so reliable out in the remote hinterlands; amazing, but still true.

A bad combination is (1) poor cell service, (2) no RCO, and (3) no ATC coverage until, say, 4,000' AGL (which can take a while when you're piston, NA and starting out at 5,000' MSL).
 
SCCutler said:
Cell service is not always so reliable out in the remote hinterlands; amazing, but still true.

A bad combination is (1) poor cell service, (2) no RCO, and (3) no ATC coverage until, say, 4,000' AGL (which can take a while when you're piston, NA and starting out at 5,000' MSL).
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Yeah, but even if you're climbing 500fpm that's 8 minutes to get on the radio, clearance times typically 10 minutes right? Normally the reason one would want to depart VFR rather than IFR in this scenario is because you don't want to wait for your departure time, so you should be at altitude to call them long before your clearance void time or 'contact f not off by' time.
 
Henning said:
If you depart the airport VFR before the clearance void/report time can't you just climb up VFR and call them on the assigned frequency as if you were flying the release and say "29AB departed KABC VFR, would like to cancel IFR."? :dunno: Seems as it would satisfy requirements to me with no delays or taxis back to the ramp.
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You could certainly take off, but by 91.123 you would have to adhere to your IFR clearance while you do, and if you aren't able to cancel, you have to follow 91.185 and either land visually if possible and then call on the phone, or if not possible to land visually, to continue on your IFR route per 91.185(c).
 
SCCutler said:
Cell service is not always so reliable out in the remote hinterlands; amazing, but still true.

A bad combination is (1) poor cell service, (2) no RCO, and (3) no ATC coverage until, say, 4,000' AGL (which can take a while when you're piston, NA and starting out at 5,000' MSL).
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That's when you're back to the pre-cell days when you had to get your clearance on the pay phone outside the ops building, then race to your plane and get in the air to beat your void time. If you didn't launch (bad run-up or whatever), you had to get back to the pay phone to let ATC know. Try that in the pouring rain...

PS: Verizon hasn't failed me yet. "Can you hear me now?"
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but even if you're climbing 500fpm that's 8 minutes to get on the radio, clearance times typically 10 minutes right?
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I've had them as long as 30 and as short as 3, but 5-10 is typical. Nevertheless, you've been cleared and released, and by 91.123, you're obligated to abide by that clearance until you cancel.

Normally the reason one would want to depart VFR rather than IFR in this scenario is because you don't want to wait for your departure time, so you should be at altitude to call them long before your clearance void time or 'contact f not off by' time.
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While it's rare to receive an IFR release with a departure time (i.e., a "not before" time as opposed to a "not after" void time), it does happen sometimes, and when it does, you are not authorized to take off in advance of that time.

The most common reason people take off VFR after receiving their IFR clearance is they've been told it will be a long time before they get their release, and they don't want to wait that long. In that case, they do not have a void time, and there is nothing stopping them from taking off VFR and doing anything they want (within the VFR rules) without further communication with ATC. Since they never got a release, ATC doesn't have to worry about all the "no communication after release" procedures. However, once they receive that release and void time, all that changes, and the monkey on the pilot's back to abide by that clearance and notify ATC before deviating from it.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but even if you're climbing 500fpm that's 8 minutes to get on the radio, clearance times typically 10 minutes right? Normally the reason one would want to depart VFR rather than IFR in this scenario is because you don't want to wait for your departure time, so you should be at altitude to call them long before your clearance void time or 'contact f not off by' time.
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I think people are confusing "hold for release" with a clearance void time. If you are instructed to hold for release you haven't received a void time yet. And if you have received a void time there is no worry about being delayed by ATC.
 
Henning said:
Yeah, but even if you're climbing 500fpm that's 8 minutes to get on the radio, clearance times typically 10 minutes right?
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Depends on the controller and situation. I once got a two-minute void time at a towered field after the tower had closed due to an incoming airliner, and the controller read the clearance so fast I had to ask for part of it over again, and he said "void in 30 seconds" the second time around, then shortly after takeoff he was already calling me on the radio, "71G did you make it off?"

I've gotten plenty of 5-minute voids as well as the 10-minute ones.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Let's say you are given a clearance and hold for release at a non-towered airport in good vmc. For some reason you then decide you would like to depart vfr. Either you cannot reach the controller anymore (this happens to me at one airport where I have a good signal in the first part of the taxi but then the controller may drop out at the runway end. Or, it looks like waiting will result in a huge delay and departing vfr & getting a new clearance airborne is going to be much more practical.
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If you're not within radio coverage to cancel IFR, how exactly were you planning on getting your release? :dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If you're not within radio coverage to cancel IFR, how exactly were you planning on getting your release? :dunno:
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Get it over the phone. In the not so old days that's how we did it. Not by cell either.

Guy calls approach on an FBO phone:

"Mooney 12345 looking for my IFR off Beaufort County to Florence."

"Ok, what runway you looking at going off and how long to get airborne?"

"Runway 7 and 10 minutes."

After coordinating with approach- "Mooney 12345 is cleared to Florence as filed. Upon entering controlled airspace fly heading 060, climb and maintain 2,000, expect 7,000 10 minutes after departure, departure control frequency 123.7. SQK 4321. Clearance void if not off by 1015, time now 1000. If not off by 1015, advise Beaufort approach no later than 1045 of your intentions."

Some controllers throw in a "and you're released for departure" but that's not necessary.

Some throw in a "hold for release" or "released after" but that's rare. If you can't clear the guy immediately due to approach's traffic situation, then it's just easier to have them call back in a few minutes to issue the clearance.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
........................ Either you cannot reach the controller anymore (this happens to me at one airport where I have a good signal in the first part of the taxi but then the controller may drop out at the runway end. ................
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from the original post ^^^
to quote flyingcheezehead;
"If you're not within radio coverage to cancel IFR, how exactly were you planning on getting your release?" :confused:
 
Velocity173 said:
Get it over the phone. In the not so old days that's how we did it. Not by cell either.

Guy calls approach on an FBO phone:

"Mooney 12345 looking for my IFR off Beaufort County to Florence."

"Ok, what runway you looking at going off and how long to get airborne?"

"Runway 7 and 10 minutes."

After coordinating with approach- "Mooney 12345 is cleared to Florence as filed. Upon entering controlled airspace fly heading 060, climb and maintain 2,000, expect 7,000 10 minutes after departure, departure control frequency 123.7. SQK 4321. Clearance void if not off by 1015, time now 1000. If not off by 1015, advise Beaufort approach no later than 1045 of your intentions."

Some controllers throw in a "and you're released for departure" but that's not necessary.

Some throw in a "hold for release" or "released after" but that's rare. If you can't clear the guy immediately due to approach's traffic situation, then it's just easier to have them call back in a few minutes to issue the clearance.
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It's my impression that the situation in question:
We pick up the clearance at a location on the airport where radio communications with ATC are possible and the clearance comes with ".........hold for release". Then we taxi out to the end of the runway where it's known that you can't talk to ATC and sit there wondering why ATC doesn't release us and pondering our options. I hate to sound sarcastic but I'm wondering how we expect ATC to call us with the release? And why would we taxi back in to the FBO and call on the phone when we could just taxi back to the ramp and talk to ATC on the radio? :mad2:
 
If it's known that you can't talk to ATC on the runway, why taxi out in the first place? Why wouldn't you inform ATC you won't be able to communicate with them if you taxi out?
 
MarkZ said:
If it's known that you can't talk to ATC on the runway, why taxi out in the first place? Why wouldn't you inform ATC you won't be able to communicate with them if you taxi out?
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Because it's not their problem. Once they issue your release, you are the one responsible to contact them if you wish to cancel your IFR clearance. How you do that is your problem, not theirs.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
It's my impression that the situation in question:
We pick up the clearance at a location on the airport where radio communications with ATC are possible and the clearance comes with ".........hold for release". Then we taxi out to the end of the runway where it's known that you can't talk to ATC and sit there wondering why ATC doesn't release us and pondering our options. I hate to sound sarcastic but I'm wondering how we expect ATC to call us with the release? And why would we taxi back in to the FBO and call on the phone when we could just taxi back to the ramp and talk to ATC on the radio? :mad2:
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Then you don't taxi out to a spot where ATC can't talk to you. Stay on the ramp and wait for ATC to release you. The release isn't a take off clearance where you're expected to depart immediately, it just means you're released into the IFR system consistent with the void time that's already been given.

One day holding over EDN, Cairns approach asked if I could get a hold of a Lear below me waiting for release. The Lear got his clearance on the ramp but it was well known (not to him) that you'd lose them at the approach end of 23. Anyway, I told him he was released and shortly thereafter he departed. No sure I'd be that liberal with my cert (either pink card or license) to trust a pilot to relay a release. Unconventional but it worked.

So, as I said, it's best just to hold off on even issuing the clearance until you're certain you can release the aircraft. Too many variables involved that could go wrong.
 
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Ron Levy said:
You could certainly take off, but by 91.123 you would have to adhere to your IFR clearance while you do, and if you aren't able to cancel, you have to follow 91.185 and either land visually if possible and then call on the phone, or if not possible to land visually, to continue on your IFR route per 91.185(c).
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I'm thinking this creates a problem for the controllers IFR-VFR separation requirements if there's VFR traffic just blasting-off, especially if its a towered field.
 
Ron Levy said:
It's your legal responsibility to cancel that IFR before the time specified in your release (the part that says "If not airborne by 1245, contact ATC no later than 1250 with intentions."). Otherwise, ATC is required to assume you either crashed on takeoff or went lost comm, and take appropriate actions to cover both contingencies (e.g., call the sheriff to check for a column of smoke near the airport, and start clearing a 91.185(c) hole through the airspace all the way to your destination). If you just take off VFR and do whatever you feel like without ATC knowing what you're doing, the pain that inflicts on ATC will be transferred back to you via the FSDO.

So, if you decide after receiving your release that you don't want to make this flight under IFR (either go VFR on your own or not go at all), you must find a means of communicating that to ATC and confirming they've received it (IOW, not just squawking 1200 and hoping they see it). On the ground, there are a lot of options, but once you take off, the options become fewer, so choose wisely.
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One problem....He hasn't gotten the release yet. The situation you are talking about is covered in the paragraph above the hold for release section in the AIM.

peerlesscowboy said:
You'd need to cancel or otherwise communicate this (somehow) to ATC.....
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You SHOULD communicate it to ATC. But not required.
 
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Velocity173 said:
.......................
So, as I said, it's best just to hold off on even issuing the clearance until you're certain you can release the aircraft. Too many variables involved that could go wrong.
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That's how it usually works in my experience, I can't remember a single time when I got a clearance issued with a "hold for release" at a non-towered airport.
Had a new one (new to me) a couple of weeks ago, departing Glacier Park International @ Kalispell, MT. Class "D" with the overlying airspace class "E" and app/dep control by Salt Lake City Center. Called ground for the clearance and it was "cleared to the felts field airport as filed altitude assignment on release squawk 4321.......". Sounded like a delay to me so I sat on the ramp waiting for release for a good fifteen minutes idling. Finally called the tower and suggested if I can get out without this delay I could just depart VFR and pick the clearance up airborne? He said "No delay expected, just taxi out and when you're ready for take-off we'll get your altitude assignment along with your release". :)
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm thinking this creates a problem for the controllers IFR-VFR separation requirements if there's VFR traffic just blasting-off, especially if its a towered field.
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Unless you're in Class B airspace, in which case you can't take off contrary to your clearance, there is no IFR-VFR separation requirement other than on the runway at tower-controlled airports.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
That's how it usually works in my experience, I can't remember a single time when I got a clearance issued with a "hold for release" at a non-towered airport.
Had a new one (new to me) a couple of weeks ago, departing Glacier Park International @ Kalispell, MT. Class "D" with the overlying airspace class "E" and app/dep control by Salt Lake City Center. Called ground for the clearance and it was "cleared to the felts field airport as filed altitude assignment on release squawk 4321.......". Sounded like a delay to me so I sat on the ramp waiting for release for a good fifteen minutes idling. Finally called the tower and suggested if I can get out without this delay I could just depart VFR and pick the clearance up airborne? He said "No delay expected, just taxi out and when you're ready for take-off we'll get your altitude assignment along with your release". :)
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You can taxi without your IFR clearance. Thats why it's good to request it early.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
You SHOULD communicate it to ATC. But not required.
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I suspect we're talking past each other here but, if you get a clearance with a "hold for release" and then depart VFR without an IFR release expecting to get a ticket into the system airborne my guess you could forget about your IFR clearance, OTOH I suppose one could depart VFR and just tell the controller to cancel when you get a'hold of him? In that case you never had a valid IFR clearance.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
That's how it usually works in my experience, I can't remember a single time when I got a clearance issued with a "hold for release" at a non-towered airport.
Had a new one (new to me) a couple of weeks ago, departing Glacier Park International @ Kalispell, MT. Class "D" with the overlying airspace class "E" and app/dep control by Salt Lake City Center. Called ground for the clearance and it was "cleared to the felts field airport as filed altitude assignment on release squawk 4321.......". Sounded like a delay to me so I sat on the ramp waiting for release for a good fifteen minutes idling. Finally called the tower and suggested if I can get out without this delay I could just depart VFR and pick the clearance up airborne? He said "No delay expected, just taxi out and when you're ready for take-off we'll get your altitude assignment along with your release". :)
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When we get our clearance on the ground at an uncontrolled airport we tell them approximately when we will be ready. They usually give us the route, a hold for release, and tell us to call when we are ready to go. But I had a new-to-me experience about a week ago too. We told them we would be ready in about 5 minutes and they gave us a clearance with no void time. When we questioned them about it they were pretty blasé, as in "just call us when you are airborne", so that's what we did. I was surprised, mostly because of the location. It was Napa, CA. Granted, it was in the evening.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
You can taxi without your IFR clearance. Thats why it's good to request it early.
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Yes, I'm aware of that. Expecting a delay I didn't want to taxi out and block the taxiway. I'd never encountered the ".....altitude assignment on release" thing before and incorrectly expected that meant there'd be a delay :redface:
 
Gucci Pilot said:
One problem....He hasn't gotten the release yet. The situation you are talking about is covered in the paragraph above the hold for release section in the AIM.
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If you haven't received your release, you can do anything you like while remaining VFR, but I think I said that earlier. Further, if you haven't yet received your release, there is no requirement to contact ATC again unless you want your release. However, if you do want your release, you'll have to taxi to where your radio comm with ATC works (or pull out your cell phone) to get it before launching IFR. Further, if you launch VFR without your release, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to pick up your IFR in the air even if you've already received your route clearance on the ground. See this report for how badly that can end.

You SHOULD communicate it to ATC. But not required.
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Once you obtain your release, it is required, but before then, it is merely a courtesy. However, if you have not been released, you aren't cancelling IFR, just telling them you are not going to be requesting that IFR release.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
That's how it usually works in my experience, I can't remember a single time when I got a clearance issued with a "hold for release" at a non-towered airport.
Had a new one (new to me) a couple of weeks ago, departing Glacier Park International @ Kalispell, MT. Class "D" with the overlying airspace class "E" and app/dep control by Salt Lake City Center. Called ground for the clearance and it was "cleared to the felts field airport as filed altitude assignment on release squawk 4321.......". Sounded like a delay to me so I sat on the ramp waiting for release for a good fifteen minutes idling. Finally called the tower and suggested if I can get out without this delay I could just depart VFR and pick the clearance up airborne? He said "No delay expected, just taxi out and when you're ready for take-off we'll get your altitude assignment along with your release". :)
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He said "altitude assignment on release?" Never heard that before. Usually you can almost always give an initial assignment and then to expect your filed in 10 minutes.

In your situation I'd just call tower "Glacier tower N12345 holding short of rwy 2 at B8 ready for departure." That way you've clarified if indeed you're holding for release and ATC will come back "N12345, continue holding short of runway 2, awaiting IFR release." Or, they'll come back with your take off clearance if a release was already obtained.
 
Velocity173 said:
So, as I said, it's best just to hold off on even issuing the clearance until you're certain you can release the aircraft. Too many variables involved that could go wrong.
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That may be better for the controller, but it may be difficult for the pilot, especially if you're going to be issuing a full route clearance significantly different from the filed route. Ain't easy trying to figure out where the new route goes and reprogram your GPS for a complex Northeast Corridor routing with a 3-5 minute void time (BTDT :eek:). All it takes is one VFR inbound to the runway after you spent that time to look at it and punch it in to bust your void time, and I really don't like trying to reprogram in flight if I can avoid it (not having an autopilot makes that even worse).
 
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Ron Levy said:
If you haven't received your release, you can do anything you like while remaining VFR, but I think I said that earlier. Further, if you haven't yet received your release, there is no requirement to contact ATC again unless you want your release. However, if you do want your release, you'll have to taxi to where your radio comm with ATC works (or pull out your cell phone) to get it before launching IFR. Further, if you launch VFR without your release, there's no guarantee that you'll be able to pick up your IFR in the air even if you've already received your route clearance on the ground. See this report for how badly that can end.

Once you obtain your release, it is required, but before then, it is merely a courtesy. However, if you have not been released, you aren't cancelling IFR, just telling them you are not going to be requesting that IFR release.
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peerlesscowboy said:
I suspect we're talking past each other here but, if you get a clearance with a "hold for release" and then depart VFR without an IFR release expecting to get a ticket into the system airborne my guess you could forget about your IFR clearance, OTOH I suppose one could depart VFR and just tell the controller to cancel when you get a'hold of him? In that case you never had a valid IFR clearance.
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I think we are all on the same page now:D
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be better for the controller, but it may be difficult for the pilot, especially if you're going to be issuing a full route clearance significantly different from the filed route. Ain't easy trying to figure out where the new route goes and reprogram your GPS for a complex Northeast Corridor routing with a 3-5 minute void time (BTDT :eek:). All it takes is one VFR inbound to the runway after you spent that time to look at it and punch it in to bust your void time, and I really don't like trying to reprogram in flight if I can avoid it (not having an autopilot makes that even worse).
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Well unless you've been given a HFR you better be ready to execute at the void time. That's why my technique was to always ask the pilot 1) what runway departing? and 2)how long till you're ready to depart? Usually they were ready to go within 10 minutes. You adjust the void time around that. I imagine there are busier uncontrolled fields where the controller might just issue a void of 3-5 minutes though. In that case if you need to tell them you can't be off within those time constraints.

Just depart VFR and pick it up in the air. Easier on everyone involved...I know a BE-400 crashed years ago trying that but that's a different story.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well unless you've been given a HFR you better be ready to execute at the void time.
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That's the problem -- if you won't give me the route with a HFR when I first ask for the clearance, a short void time issued with the route later may not allow me enough time to get ready to go if the route is significantly different than filed.
That's why my technique was to always ask the pilot 1) what runway departing? and 2)how long till you're ready to depart? Usually they were ready to go within 10 minutes. You adjust the void time around that. I imagine there are busier uncontrolled fields where the controller might just issue a void of 3-5 minutes though. In that case if you need to tell them you can't be off within those time constraints.
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That's all great if they really can be ready that fast, but if you're issuing a new route, 3-5 minutes may not be enough, so it sure helps if you issue the route with a HFR and then say "Call back when you're #1 ready to go" and just issue the release when they call back. Even if that means they have to stay on the ramp in order to call back for the release, it's still probably a lot easier for the pilot to make a 5 minute void time that way than if you issue that complex clearance on the ramp with a 5-minute void time along with the clearance when they first call.
Just depart VFR and pick it up in the air. Easier on everyone involved...I know a BE-400 crashed years ago trying that but that's a different story.
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Again, I disagree unless you can guarantee before launch that there will be no delay once airborne and the route won't be too cosmically different than expected -- and that BE400 accident (which I linked above) is a good part of why I say that.
 
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The BE-400 accident isn't a good example though Ron. They departed into mountainous terrain with marginal VFR (OVC 10) in a jet trying to get contact with ATL below radar coverage. If it was VFR then they would've had a problem at all. It was a short hop in an area with light traffic so a clearance over to Huntsville would be easy. They just didn't have the wx for that operation.

Of course it didn't help that other FO that flew with that CAP questioned his decision making. He deviated from standard procedures several times prior to the fatal accident. His accident was only a matter of time.
 
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Velocity173 said:
He said "altitude assignment on release?" Never heard that before. ..................
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Yes, that's what he said and it was the same thing on the return trip 2 days later so I assume it was standard procedure at Glacier. I'd never heard it before either but I assume it was some LOA thing between Glacier twr & Salt Lake Center:confused:
 
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