Unable to cancel HFR

[MarkZ]

Yes, that's what he said and it was the same thing on the return trip 2 days later so I assume it was standard procedure at Glacier. I'd never heard it before either but I assume it was some LOA thing between Glacier twr & Salt Lake Center

It's possible that this is a local technique with the controllers there. If ATC omits the altitude portion of an IFR clearance, the user will not know what altitude he or she is cleared to, and thus wait further instruction.

 

[Henning]

I think people are confusing "hold for release" with a clearance void time. If you are instructed to hold for release you haven't received a void time yet. And if you have received a void time there is no worry about being delayed by ATC.

I'm not confusing them. In order to depart IFR, you have to wait for your HFR time. If you cannot get off the ground by your Clearance Void time, you have x amount of time to get in touch with ATC and let them know to cancel your clearance. What I am trying to clarify is if you depart VFR before your HFR time, you will be at your point of contact where you can get ahold of ATC before the required time for contact and let them know you are out VFR and to cancel IFR. IOW, I'm not seeing where the big deal is with getting in touch with ATC to cancel the IFR before leaving the ground since I can contact them in the air before the required time much more easily and check in for FF at the same time.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm not confusing them. In order to depart IFR, you have to wait for your HFR time. If you cannot get off the ground by your Clearance Void time, you have x amount of time to get in touch with ATC and let them know to cancel your clearance. What I am trying to clarify is if you depart VFR before your HFR time, you will be at your point of contact where you can get ahold of ATC before the required time for contact and let them know you are out VFR and to cancel IFR. IOW, I'm not seeing where the big deal is with getting in touch with ATC to cancel the IFR before leaving the ground since I can contact them in the air before the required time much more easily and check in for FF at the same time.

You are not going to know what that time is. When they say "hold for release" they might give you an estimate if you ask, but it's not an exact time like the clearance void time, and it could change. Also, you need to actually get your release from ATC even if they give you some sort of time estimate. You can't just take off at that time. You probably know that but I think others in the thread were somewhat confused.

I think the answer to your question was given in post #2.

2. Hold for Release. ATC may issue "hold for release" instructions in a clearance to delay an aircraft's departure for traffic management reasons (i.e., weather, traffic volume, etc.). When ATC states in the clearance, "hold for release," the pilot may not depart utilizing that IFR clearance until a release time or additional instructions are issued by ATC. In addition, ATC will include departure delay information in conjunction with "hold for release" instructions. The ATC instruction, "hold for release," applies to the IFR clearance and does not prevent the pilot from departing under VFR. However, prior to takeoff the pilot should cancel the IFR flight plan and operate the transponder on the appropriate VFR code. An IFR clearance may not be available after departure.

Edit: I see in that quote that they talk about a release time but I have never encountered that except at controlled airports.

 

[dtuuri]

I never get my clearance on the ground if it is VFR at an uncontrolled field. Just time wasted sitting in the runup area.

Personally, I don't care for that practice at all. It puts pressure on ATC when you pop-up and sets you up for the same kind of accident the Beechjet 400 had at Rome, GA. You can walk across the ramp in clear morning sun under a nice blue sky, depart and then find yourself struggling to maintain VFR in haze and low wispy clouds. I prefer to get a void time clearance over the phone before punching the start button.

Another thing, when you depart VFR, after planning to assure avoidance of obstructions using the IFR departure procedure (or the default 200 ft/nm), you'll get the request for the "magic words" and have to enter into an oral 'hold harmless' agreement with ATC before they grant you the clearance. THAT"S a "waste of time" because you're climbing and accelerating and might have to level off to maintain VFR under marginal conditions ruining your well thought-out departure scheme. BTDT. :wink2:

dtuuri

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I did not read all the discussion, but is the consensus that the AIM is correct or not?
(it says you should cancel, it does not say you must).

 

[Everskyward]

I did not read all the discussion, but is the consensus that the AIM is correct or not?
(it says you should cancel, it does not say you must).

You expect a consensus on POA?

I would go with the AIM but that's just my vote.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Get it over the phone. In the not so old days that's how we did it. Not by cell either.

I mean within the context of the OP which I quoted. If you "cannot reach the controller anymore" at the end of the runway to cancel the HFR, you wouldn't be able to reach the controller to get the IFR release either.

from the original post ^^^
to quote flyingcheezehead;
"If you're not within radio coverage to cancel IFR, how exactly were you planning on getting your release?"

Right. The part of the OP you quoted is exactly why I asked the question. If you can't call the controller to cancel at the end of the runway, you wouldn't have been able to get your release either.

You are not going to know what that time is. When they say "hold for release" they might give you an estimate if you ask, but it's not an exact time like the clearance void time, and it could change.

Also, you need to actually get your release from ATC even if they give you some sort of time estimate. You can't just take off at that time. You probably know that but I think others in the thread were somewhat confused.

I think the answer to your question was given in post #2.

Edit: I see in that quote that they talk about a release time but I have never encountered that except at controlled airports.

Mari, what you're referring to is an EDCT (expected departure clearance time), which is, as you say, not binding nor an authorization for release. But there is such a thing as a release time as well. I've gotten it a couple of times, like so:

"Bugsmasher 12345, cleared to Podunk Muni as filed, climb and maintain 3000, expect 8000 10 minutes after departure, departure is Far-off Center on 123.45, squawk 7654. Released for departure at 1810, clearance void at 1815, if unable to depart by 1815 contact Far-off Center by 1845, time now 1803."

And then by the time you read all that back your release time has arrived. But when it's given like this, it's a release, not an EDCT and it is authorization to take off at the time given.

c. Release Times.
1. Release times must be issued to pilots when necessary to specify the earliest time an aircraft may depart.
NOTE−
A release time is a departure restriction issued to a pilot (either directly or through authorized relay) to separate a departing aircraft from other traffic.
2. The facility issuing a release time to a pilot must include a time check.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(Aircraft identification) RELEASED FOR DEPARTURE AT (time in hours and/or minutes),
and if required,
IF NOT OFF BY (time), ADVISE (facility) NOT LATER THAN (time) OF INTENTIONS.
TIME (time in hours, minutes, and nearest quarter minute).

 

[Everskyward]

I've gotten it a couple of times, like so:

"Bugsmasher 12345, cleared to Podunk Muni as filed, climb and maintain 3000, expect 8000 10 minutes after departure, departure is Far-off Center on 123.45, squawk 7654. Released for departure at 1810, clearance void at 1815, if unable to depart by 1815 contact Far-off Center by 1845, time now 1803."

I have never gotten anything like that but usually we are waiting for other IFR traffic inbound to the airport to cancel or traffic which has just taken off and they are waiting to get it radar identified. They can't predict exactly when either of these things will occur so I'm not sure how they can issue a time. But I'll take for granted they do sometimes.

What usually happens with us is that we pick up our clearance in advance and tell them that. They give us the clearance and "hold for release, call us back when you are ready to go."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have never gotten anything like that but usually we are waiting for other IFR traffic inbound to the airport to cancel or traffic which has just taken off and they are waiting to get it radar identified. They can't predict exactly when either of these things will occur so I'm not sure how they can issue a time. But I'll take for granted they do sometimes.

Yep, it's pretty rare. I'm guessing they use it when there's traffic that'll be passing close to the field and at an altitude where radar coverage is uncertain in the next few minutes so they can't release you right away. Maybe one of the controllers here can clarify when they'd use it.

 

[Velocity173]

I have never gotten anything like that but usually we are waiting for other IFR traffic inbound to the airport to cancel or traffic which has just taken off and they are waiting to get it radar identified. They can't predict exactly when either of these things will occur so I'm not sure how they can issue a time. But I'll take for granted they do sometimes.

It's used at busier non towered fields. You have one aircraft that has a clearance with a void time and then another aircraft calls for their IFR. You can either issue the clearance and "hold for release" or issue the clearance with a release time a few minutes after the first aircraft's void time.

It really can't be applied to a departure vs arrival because there's no way of really knowing how long it will take for the arrival to land. Aircraft could circle and screw up the whole release time for the departure.

Overflight? I suppose but it's easier to just restrict the overflight higher than the initial assigned altitude of the departure.



A sleepy field with hardly any traffic? No need to issue a release time.

 

[Everskyward]

It's used at busier non towered fields. You have one aircraft that has a clearance with a void time and then another aircraft calls for their IFR. You can either issue the clearance and "hold for release" or issue the clearance with a release time a few minutes after the first aircraft's void time.

It really can't be applied to a departure vs arrival because there's no way of really knowing how long it will take for the arrival to land. Aircraft could circle and screw up the who release time.

A sleepy field with hardly any traffic? No need to issue a release time.

Thanks for that explanation. I guess in that instance you are trusting the first airplane with the void time to actually comply and not take off late.

 

[Velocity173]

Thanks for that explanation. I guess in that instance you are trusting the first airplane with the void time to actually comply and not take off late.

Well now that I think of it I don't believe you could actually give a release based on the other aircraft's void. You can clear the second aircraft but but you have to give a hold for release. Once approach gets radar, they can release the next departure. I appoligize for the confusion on that I was thinking of timed departures.

Whenever I had a late departure on approach, I would tilt the strip up on the board at their void time. You gotta wait a few minutes for fudge time for the aircraft to depart and get radar ID. Generally either 1) the aircraft was late and just departed VFR looking to get recleared, 2) they're late and still departed IFR and appoligzing profusely or 3) the crashed on departure.

I've seen 1 & 2 happen before. Generally it's not an issue but 2 would get you into trouble these days. Never seen 3 but you need to sanitize the airspace for the next 30 minutes or until contact with ATC. After the 30 minutes after void time then the sup gets notified and he calls center to get the SAR ball rolling.

 

[Henning]

You are not going to know what that time is. When they say "hold for release" they might give you an estimate if you ask, but it's not an exact time like the clearance void time, and it could change. Also, you need to actually get your release from ATC even if they give you some sort of time estimate. You can't just take off at that time. You probably know that but I think others in the thread were somewhat confused.

I think the answer to your question was given in post #2.



Edit: I see in that quote that they talk about a release time but I have never encountered that except at controlled airports.

Also note that they make it clear it is NOT a restriction on departing VFR. My point is that if you are going to depart VFR, there is nothing to prevent that, and that you will be in a position to contact ATC from a VFR position and cancel your IFR before such a time as you would be getting in trouble for not contacting them to cancel.

I just think it was over complicating things to taxi back and make calls from the ground if one was seeing VFR conditions to launch into. You can just launch VFR, climb, and cancel. I've done it more times than I've used a clearance I filed for just in case. If you can maintain VFR they don't care a bit what you do out in Styx, just let them know you are up and VFR canceling IFR, I usually request VFR advisories at that point.

 

[Everskyward]

Well now that I think of it I don't believe you could actually give a release based on the other aircraft's void. You can clear the second aircraft but but you have to give a hold for release. Once approach gets radar, they can release the next departure. I appoligize for the confusion on that I was thinking of timed departures.

Can you come up with a scenario where you would get a hold for release time which is some time in the future? It must happen since Kent (flyingcheesehead) has gotten one.

 

[Everskyward]

Also note that they make it clear it is NOT a restriction on departing VFR. My point is that if you are going to depart VFR, there is nothing to prevent that, and that you will be in a position to contact ATC from a VFR position and cancel your IFR before such a time as you would be getting in trouble for not contacting them to cancel.

I just think it was over complicating things to taxi back and make calls from the ground if one was seeing VFR conditions to launch into. You can just launch VFR, climb, and cancel. I've done it more times than I've used a clearance I filed for just in case. If you can maintain VFR they don't care a bit what you do out in Styx, just let them know you are up and VFR canceling IFR, I usually request VFR advisories at that point.

Being that the paragraph from the AIM says "should" not "must" I think you would be fine. My opinion only which is worth what you paid for it. But in the real world I think you would rarely get a HFR time (see discussion with Velocity173) and if they gave one to you and you thought it was too far in the future you could decline at that time while you were still talking to them.

 

[Velocity173]

Can you come up with a scenario where you would get a hold for release time which is some time in the future? It must happen since Kent (flyingcheesehead) has gotten one.

Well the only thing I can think of would be a traffic management unit issue where they can't let you go til a certain time based on your destination delays. When I did ATC, out of maybe 100 non towered airport clearances, I never once issued a release time. Done the hold for release once or twice but like I said, sometimes it's just easier to say "hey I got a guy on final right now, I'll call you back in a couple of minutes with your clearance."

I don't know, maybe Mark or JC have examples of a release time off non towered fields. They're both current controllers.

 

[poadeleted20]

I did not read all the discussion, but is the consensus that the AIM is correct or not?
(it says you should cancel, it does not say you must).

I've lost track of what the AIM was answering in this discussion, so please let me summarize. If you've received a "hold for release? clearance but not received your release, then you should inform the controller if you then choose not to obtain your release. However, once you receive your release, you must cancel within the stated time frame (usually five minutes after the void time in the release) or they set the emergency wheels in motion.

 

[poadeleted20]

Can you come up with a scenario where you would get a hold for release time which is some time in the future? It must happen since Kent (flyingcheesehead) has gotten one.

What you can get is a release time in the future, not a hold for release time in the future. You may get this in your release after calling ready after being issued a hold for release clearance, but you will not get it as part of the original hold for release clearance since a release time clearance is a release. The controller will say something like this:

Tiger 22RL, you are released at 1500Z, clearance is void at 1510Z, time now 1450Z. If not airborne by 1510Z, contact ATC no later than 1515Z with your intentions.

This makes you wait at least the ten minutes or so until 1500Z before you take off, then you have a ten minute window in which to do so before your window closes. If they don't hear from you one way or another before 1515Z, they'll start the no-contact procedures, including both clearing your lost comm route and getting someone on the ground to see if you're either still on the ramp or underneath a column of smoke.

This doesn't happen often (I'm thinking maybe half a dozen times in my 44 years of IFR flying), but occasionally it does. I'll leave it to the controllers to explain why they may have to or want to do this.

 

[Jmcmanna]

It happens sometimes at LOT or 1C5 when MDW is landing runway 13C (for example). Because of the pattern/altitudes required to stay beneath the ORD traffic, MDW tfc can't be restricted to 1000' above the minimum vectoring altitude. Instead, if an aircraft is looking for an IFR release, the controller can build a hole and time it by controlling the speed of the potentially conflicting airplanes. At 180 knots, aircraft are moving 3NM per minute, so if I can get you out behind an airplane 12 miles from the airport from which you want to depart, I will give a release for 5 minutes in the future from right now. I need an 18 or so mile hole for a five minute window, but I will protect the airspace if the void time comes and goes and you haven't departed.

The other reason is for airspace/airport flow programs.

 

[azure]

Being released at some future time happens all the time when departing KVLL. I think it is not so much the field that is busy, more the airspace, being under the Detroit bravo and not far from KPTK which is very busy. Typically if you tell them you need 5 minutes to start up and get your cleared route punched in, they will release you 5 minutes in the future, with a void time 3 to 5 minutes after that (never more than 10 minutes though, IME; it's always a fairly narrow window).

The wording Kent gave is pretty much what is used there. Sometimes it is "clearance valid at" instead of "released at".

 

[Speed]

Get it over the phone. In the not so old days that's how we did it. Not by cell either.

BTDT. Also had one airport I flew freight out of over a decade ago where ATC would give us very short void times, so we would have one guy stay in the FBO, call on the phone to get the clearance/release times and he would relay it to us over company freq. Worked like a charm.

 

[bluerooster]

Because it's not their problem. Once they issue your release, you are the one responsible to contact them if you wish to cancel your IFR clearance. How you do that is your problem, not theirs.

he hasn't been issued his release yet. He's been told to wait for it. So I would suspect that he should sit on the ramp (where he has good reception) untill he gets his release.

 

[poadeleted20]

It happens sometimes at LOT

Exactly where it happened to me in July of last year on the way home from the AYA convention in Arlington WA. In fact, the plane ahead of me got a "released at [time]" clearance, and started to take the runway as soon as he received his release -- about 3 minutes before the release time. I was sitting next to him, #2 to go, listening to both CTAF and the remote Clearance Delivery, and when he called on CTAF that he was departing, I managed to get him to stop and wait. When he reviewed the release, he realized what he'd done wrong -- and thanked me. He got airborne right at the time, and about a minute after he called "departing the pattern" on CTAF, Approach called me on the remote Clearance Delivery and gave me my own "released at [time]" clearance.

So thanks for the explanation of why that happens.

 

[Everskyward]

It happens sometimes at LOT or 1C5 when MDW is landing runway 13C (for example). Because of the pattern/altitudes required to stay beneath the ORD traffic, MDW tfc can't be restricted to 1000' above the minimum vectoring altitude. Instead, if an aircraft is looking for an IFR release, the controller can build a hole and time it by controlling the speed of the potentially conflicting airplanes. At 180 knots, aircraft are moving 3NM per minute, so if I can get you out behind an airplane 12 miles from the airport from which you want to depart, I will give a release for 5 minutes in the future from right now. I need an 18 or so mile hole for a five minute window, but I will protect the airspace if the void time comes and goes and you haven't departed.

The other reason is for airspace/airport flow programs.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[poadeleted20]

he hasn't been issued his release yet. He's been told to wait for it. So I would suspect that he should sit on the ramp (where he has good reception) untill he gets his release.

That would be the best course of action at that point. And if during the wait, he decides to go ahead and launch VFR, it would be a really good idea (although not the law) to call whoever was handling the clearance and tell them what he's doing before he leaves the ramp going to somewhere else on the field that frequency won't work.