Two VFR ATC questions-

nj-pilot

nj-pilot

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I'm flying VFR with flight following from ATC.

1) "remain VFR" - once they establish me on their radar. What does that mean? Would I have otherwise started flying IFR?

2) Once I terminate my flight following, I get "radar service terminated, frequency change approved" - but sometimes they say "squawk VFR" and sometimes they don't. My question is - if they do not say "squawk VFR" - do I assume that I should stay on my discrete code?
 
1. Remain VFR means exactly that - remain in visual flight conditions, do not enter IMC.
2. Yes, you can squawk VFR after flight following terminated.
 
Timbeck2 said:
One and done....end of thread.
Click to expand...

Not so fast, while the answer to avoid IMC is correct, I would argue the main point is that you are still responsible for traffic and obstacle separation...

Moreover, I do not think that you have the "option" to sqwauk 1200 once you are terminated.

However, this is POA, so let us hear from the rest...
 
Timbeck2 said:
One and done....end of thread.
Click to expand...

Rooney Freimund said:
Not so fast, while the answer to avoid IMC is correct, I would argue the main point is that you are still responsible for traffic and obstacle separation...

Moreover, I do not think that you have the "option" to sqwauk 1200 once you are terminated.

However, this is POA, so let us hear from the rest...
Click to expand...
See what I mean, Tim? ;)
 
1) controller technique. The statement is obvious. Also a waste of time.

2) the controller is required to tell you to squawk VFR at the termination of radar service. If they don’t, they either forgot or just don’t care. Yes, squawk VFR on your own.
 
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VFR - Visual Flight Rules - maintain that - juuuuuuust like the controller told you to do.
If the controller wanted you to keep the discreet code, they would have told you.


Radar service terminated - squawk a dozen, call your cousin

I really thought we were done here.
 
What kind of pattern entry did you make once you got home?
 
nj-pilot said:
1) "remain VFR" - once they establish me on their radar. What does that mean? Would I have otherwise started flying IFR?
Click to expand...
Man this is probably digging pretty deep but.....perhaps some pilots perceive FF as the cloud clearance rules having been relaxed because they are being watched by radar. Technically they shouldn't even have to say it because you are not flying under a Instrument Flight plan. I guess its also a nice short way to say you ain't got no Special VFR clearance either.

I had to @Timbeck2, I had to.
 
I think "maintain VFR" is just something they say because they need to say something to acknowledge a transmission. The instruction is pretty redundant for an aircraft under VFR.
 
cowman said:
I think "maintain VFR" is just something they say because they need to say something to acknowledge a transmission. The instruction is pretty redundant for an aircraft under VFR.
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Ha! The funniest is when it’s CAVU as far as the eyes can see and ATC says ‘maintain VFR’...........okay.
 
I hear the "Maintain vfr" instruction mostly when pilots ask atc to change altitude.
Perhaps those pilots are thinking they need permission for an altitude change when they do not.
So it appears that atc is using the phrase to reinforce what is already the rule; the pilot can choose any altitude appropriate for flight, within the limits imposed by VFR.
 
One or the other should be regulatory on ending flight following...either it must be "squawk VFR" or "keep your beacon code". I've heard both and neither. Sounds like if you don't hear it, you may squawk 1200, but should only ever keep your code if told to do so. I'm guessing from the controller side, you are required to say "keep your beacon code" if the transition is to a tower that will handle the code?
 
CharlieD3 said:
Why are we done? Surely there's some nuance we missed?
Click to expand...

Yes, remember when flying VFR in an easterly direction above 3000AGL to fly at even altitudes minus 500 feet....westerly heading odd altitudes minus 500 feet.
 
nj-pilot said:
I'm flying VFR with flight following from ATC.

1) "remain VFR" - once they establish me on their radar. What does that mean? Would I have otherwise started flying IFR?

2) Once I terminate my flight following, I get "radar service terminated, frequency change approved" - but sometimes they say "squawk VFR" and sometimes they don't. My question is - if they do not say "squawk VFR" - do I assume that I should stay on my discrete code?
Click to expand...

Here ya go :https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO_7110.65X_Air_Traffic_Control_CHG_1.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/atc.pdf
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I hear the "Maintain vfr" instruction mostly when pilots ask atc to change altitude.
Perhaps those pilots are thinking they need permission for an altitude change when they do not.
So it appears that atc is using the phrase to reinforce what is already the rule; the pilot can choose any altitude appropriate for flight, within the limits imposed by VFR.
Click to expand...

I always let ATC know when I am going to change altitudes, it might help them with separation etc.
I have been told while on FF to maintain an altitude until otherwise instructed.
 
1RTK1 said:
I always let ATC know when I am going to change altitudes, it might help them with separation etc.
I have been told while on FF to maintain an altitude until otherwise instructed.
Click to expand...

This^

Or "notify before any altitude changes"
 
And in case you don’t feel like taking the time to go through the .65:


5365B371-31D9-49F7-AEB5-13B4359AEE32.jpeg
 
In busy airspace, it is common to be told to keep the code till the ground. Some towers prefer that you are squawking something other than 1200 before landing, because of how much traffic they have.
 
nj-pilot said:
I'm flying VFR with flight following from ATC.

1) "remain VFR" - once they establish me on their radar. What does that mean? Would I have otherwise started flying IFR?

2) Once I terminate my flight following, I get "radar service terminated, frequency change approved" - but sometimes they say "squawk VFR" and sometimes they don't. My question is - if they do not say "squawk VFR" - do I assume that I should stay on my discrete code?
Click to expand...

Remain VFR means talking to them is not an ifr clearance, stay out of the clouds. Probably more relevant for practicing IFR approaches, but still a good idea.

The squawk vfr part, around here they will sometimes tell us to keep the code, in fact most of the time. But bottom line, if you are not sure , ask them. "Bug smasher 123, should I keep my code or squawk vfr?"
 
See, I just knowed there was nuance.... Do, all these rules apply on second Tuesdays as well?

If, I'm no longer getting hand holding, and it's mutually agreed, Imma squawk VFR.

My plane, my responsibility... If he wants to know where I am, he'll tell me to keep the number. And, of course, I'll comply.
 
nj-pilot said:
1) "remain VFR" - once they establish me on their radar. What does that mean? Would I have otherwise started flying IFR?

2) Once I terminate my flight following, I get "radar service terminated, frequency change approved" - but sometimes they say "squawk VFR" and sometimes they don't. My question is - if they do not say "squawk VFR" - do I assume that I should stay on my discrete code?
Click to expand...

1.) that's easy.. stay VFR.. remember the rules about clouds and clearances and all that.. yeah, obey those.. the nuanced part.. let's say they ask you to climb to 5,500 and fly a heading of 180 for traffic.. well if that puts you in a cloud then you are NOT allowed to fly into it.. you have to tell ATC "unable due to cloud layer" or something like that. SoCal has done that to me when coming back in the evenings and the marine layer starts rolling in.. my response is usually "have to stay under X to remain clear of clouds or need an IFR clearance"

2.) in socal they're very specific (at least in my experience) about either stating "remain beacon code" or "squawk VFR".. if they don't say anything though.. then in my opinion you have no obligation to stay on your code.. they cancelled flight following, you're allowed to F-off and switch frequencies.. you're basically "not on their radar" anymore so go to 1200. But never hurts to ask if you are curios. Honestly, in my experience the only time I am told to "remain this beacon code" is if they cancelled flight following for me but also handing me off to the tower... I assume it's so tower can find me easier and know who I am

But surely this thread will go on for 5 or 6 pages..
 
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I get that after departing the DC SFRA, too. Also get that instruction when requesting switch to untowered airport while on FF.

Shhhh, don’t tell anyone, but once I forgot to squawk vfr and left it on the code even after switching to CTAF.
 
Timbeck2 said:
One and done....end of thread.
Click to expand...

Who are you kidding? This is POA where the right answer on post two just means the thread probably won’t go for 5 pages.
 
nj-pilot said:
I'm flying VFR with flight following from ATC.

1) "remain VFR" - once they establish me on their radar. What does that mean? Would I have otherwise started flying IFR?

2) Once I terminate my flight following, I get "radar service terminated, frequency change approved" - but sometimes they say "squawk VFR" and sometimes they don't. My question is - if they do not say "squawk VFR" - do I assume that I should stay on my discrete code?
Click to expand...

The remain VFR is useless. Just like you said it seems to imply that if they didn’t say it then you could just go IFR which is ridiculous. A lot of controllers say it anyway. Some do, some don’t. In 30 years as a controller, 24 of it Radar, I never saw any directive that said do it.
 
Note that in certain airspace (TFRs, DC area stuff) you are expected to continue the discrete code to the ground so don't dial up 1200.
 
The "maintain VFR" only seems to be required when issuing practice approaches to VFR aircraft (Order 7110.65 4-8-11), however is issued routinely to all VFR aircraft at least where I fly. Could be habit due to the practice approach requirement, or something that stems from worry on the part of controllers that a pilot might accidentally think they've been given an IFR clearance. It also seems to be used in lieu of an altitude assignment.

For example:
- Approach: "November 345, maintain VFR at or below X,000, traffic X o'clock, southbound, crossing 500 feet above you."
A few seconds later:
- Approach: "November 345, traffic no factor. Maintain VFR."

Departing a Class C, clearance delivery will also say "maintain VFR" instead of an altitude if they don't have a need to assign a particular altitude after departure.

As for question 2, keeping the code is unusual. If I did not have a reason to believe I should keep the code, I would assume the controller simply forgot or got lazy in telling me to squawk VFR.
 
luvflyin said:
The remain VFR is useless. Just like you said it seems to imply that if they didn’t say it then you could just go IFR which is ridiculous. A lot of controllers say it anyway. Some do, some don’t. In 30 years as a controller, 24 of it Radar, I never saw any directive that said do it.
Click to expand...

I wonder if it has to do with being near controlled airspace, namely a bravo, where someone busting it practicing an approach might claim they were under an instrument clearance?
 
1RTK1 said:
I always let ATC know when I am going to change altitudes, it might help them with separation etc.
I have been told while on FF to maintain an altitude until otherwise instructed.
Click to expand...
I learned the importance of advising ATC of alititude changes my last day trip. The exchange went something like:

Me: "Skyhawk 12345 descending to 3000ft"
ATC: "Skyhawk 12345 maintain VFR at or above 4000ft, traffic 12 o'clock, 5 miles, 3000ft"
Me: "Skyhawk 12345 VFR at or above 4000, looking for traffic..."

Also reinforced to me why FF is important to get. We ended up seeing each other and being no factor, but it was great to have the controller help us out.
 
I thought when ATC issues a "Maintain VFR" statement, not only does it mean remain in VMC conditions, but it also leaves the onus of traffic separation and terrain clearance and obstacle avoidance on the pilot. I will occasionally be told to maintain vfr when picking up flight following, particularly when a controller is handling a considerable load of traffic. In that case, the controller has given me a squawk code so he/she knows my whereabouts, but they are not spending time on traffic separation for me, nor monitoring my altitude in regards to terrain and obstacle avoidance.
When the "Maintain VFR" phrase is not used, my assumption was they are actually watching my flight path and helping me out with traffic, terrain, and obstacle separation.
 
jwschrag said:
I thought when ATC issues a "Maintain VFR" statement, not only does it mean remain in VMC conditions, but it also leaves the onus of traffic separation and terrain clearance and obstacle avoidance on the pilot. I will occasionally be told to maintain vfr when picking up flight following, particularly when a controller is handling a considerable load of traffic. In that case, the controller has given me a squawk code so he/she knows my whereabouts, but they are not spending time on traffic separation for me, nor monitoring my altitude in regards to terrain and obstacle avoidance.
When the "Maintain VFR" phrase is not used, my assumption was they are actually watching my flight path and helping me out with traffic, terrain, and obstacle separation.
Click to expand...

No, that's not it at all.
 
jwschrag said:
I thought when ATC issues a "Maintain VFR" statement, not only does it mean remain in VMC conditions, but it also leaves the onus of traffic separation and terrain clearance and obstacle avoidance on the pilot. I will occasionally be told to maintain vfr when picking up flight following, particularly when a controller is handling a considerable load of traffic. In that case, the controller has given me a squawk code so he/she knows my whereabouts, but they are not spending time on traffic separation for me, nor monitoring my altitude in regards to terrain and obstacle avoidance.
When the "Maintain VFR" phrase is not used, my assumption was they are actually watching my flight path and helping me out with traffic, terrain, and obstacle separation.
Click to expand...

NO!!! Well yes, kinda, in a way, some of the time. First of all before going any farther, that sometimes they say it and sometimes they don’t has nothing to do with it. They have no requirement to say it for Flight Following. But sometimes, some of them do it anyway but it does not change the ‘level’ of flight following you are getting. The key word in your last sentence is “helping.” When in VMC the Pilot has an absolute responsibility to “see and avoid.” Both when operating VFR and IFR. When receiving Traffic Advisories, what is commonly known as Flight Following(look up flight following in the pilot/controller glossary) it is being given as an ‘additional service.’ They are ‘assisting’ you in complying with FAR 91.113 b. The Controllers have no requirement to keep constant track of you. In fact they have a requirement not to if it would interfere with their primary responsibility of separating IFR traffic.
 
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Make sure to verify what they told you.

ATC: "N1234, radar contact 13 miles southwest of airport, 2,500 feet, cleared through Bravo, maintain VFR 3,500, altimeter 2992."
You: "Uh, rog, 13 miles southeast, I mean west, of airport. Two thousand and five hundred climbing to 3 thousand an' five hundred. I got the altimeter of two nine niner two, and I'll stay clear of the clouds, N1234."
Still you: "Oh and cleared through Bravo."
You again: "That's uh N1234."

ATC: "N1234 radar services terminated, frequency change approved, there's one target between you and the airport at your 12 o'clock 3 miles out altimeter showing 1,500' type unknown."
You: "Right uh, swap frequencies and I'll keep an eye out for that traffic- thanks for the heads up, N1234."
Still you: "And confirm squawk VFR?"
You again: "N1234."
 
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