Turning base at a towered airport.

jordane93 said:
FRG does
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Published or known to locals only? IOW, assuming I fly to FRG for the first time ever, is there an official way (AFD, ATIS broadcast) I can know about them in advance.

There's a difference. A lot of airports, especially in busier airspace, have commonly used reporting points. Some are visual (non-mandatory) reporting points on the charts; others are not - just local landmarks the locals all know about.
 
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Stewartb said:
You guys don't have specified reporting points for inbound traffic?
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Except for Overhead Approaches, Simulated Flameout Approaches and Practice Precautionary Approaches there are no position reports that Tower Controllers are required to request from VFR arrivals. This does not mean that certain Towers may not have a local Facility Directive requiring their controllers to do it. My guess is many do.
 
luvflyin said:
Except for Overhead Approaches, Simulated Flameout Approaches and Practice Precautionary Approaches there are no position reports that Tower Controllers are required to request from VFR arrivals. This does not mean that certain Towers may not have a local Facility Directive requiring their controllers to do it. My guess is many do.
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Correct. They can use prominent geographical reporting points though. Depends on the individual controller.
 
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EdFred said:
When I do pattern work at GRR they never tell me to report downwind. Nor do they at MKG.

So this standard, isn't so standard.
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Yes, it is -- at about 95% of the tower-controlled airports at which I've flown for nearly half a century. OTOH, what I think you really meant was "standard" doesn't mean "always", and I would have agreed with that. But what I said originally (i.e., do what Tower says) should cover those cases.
 
No I meant what I said, and exactly how I said it. So unless you produce something in writing that says it is standard, it's just another case of you talking out your ass, throwing out that you've been flying for x number of years and everyone should remain silent once The Ron speaks.

Note that I said pattern work, not initial entry into the pattern.
 
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Ron Levy said:
It's been part of the program for every tower controlled airport at which I've flown for 45 years (and that's a lot of airports and a lot of programs). Never checked to see if it was written anywhere. :dunno:
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Come to CRQ, or MYF or basically any Class D in SoCal that has radar (which is most of them). The only places I've EVER been asked to report downwind were smaller airports where the controller didn't have a scope. Just because it's "standard" where you fly doesn't make it standard everywhere, especially if you cant produce anything saying it is.
 
StinkBug said:
Come to CRQ, or MYF or basically any Class D in SoCal that has radar (which is most of them). The only places I've EVER been asked to report downwind were smaller airports where the controller didn't have a scope. Just because it's "standard" where you fly doesn't make it standard everywhere, especially if you cant produce anything saying it is.
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LGB would either say "call on the 45" if it was busy, or clear me to land on first call if it wasn't. Most of the time coming into not busy airports I get cleared to land on first call, next person Imtalk to is ground.
 
jordane93 said:
Some of them are VFR reporting points on the sectional and some of them are local
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That's what I thought. None are mandatory, just local custom. Even the ones on the sectional are to help us tell the Tower where we are when we report in or to help Tower tell us where to report. So, instead of "8 southeast" we can say "over the Walmart."
 
No pattern position reports are requested where I trained/fly: KPIE (St Pete/Clearwater).
 
midlifeflyer said:
Published or known to locals only? IOW, assuming I fly to FRG for the first time ever, is there an official way (AFD, ATIS broadcast) I can know about them in advance.

There's a difference. A lot of airports, especially in busier airspace, have commonly used reporting points. Some are visual (non-mandatory) reporting points on the charts; others are not - just local landmarks the locals all know about.
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Case in point: The most commonly used reporting point at Palo Alto (PAO) is Leslie Salt, which is not even on the chart.

And of course the funny thing is, it's actually been Cargill Salt since 1978!

na31250201.jpg
 
Palmpilot said:
Case in point: The most commonly used reporting point at Palo Alto (PAO) is Leslie Salt, which is not even on the chart.

And of course the funny thing is, it's actually been Cargill Salt since 1978!

na31250201.jpg
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Hmm, I never report in there as it's too close to the Class C shelf. Some of the common reporting points are charted (KGO, SLAC, Train Bridge, etc.) and some aren't, but you can always report in with distance and direction. Just don't screw it up, as cardinal directions are screwy around the bay. Like, a straight in from Moffett is east of the field, not south, even if that's what the signs on 101 say.

The few times I do hear people reporting in there, they call it the Salt Pile. But honestly, I hear SLAC a lot more on a nice day.
 
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It's possible that it may not be used as much as it used to be.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the controller didn't tell them about the traffic on a straight-in, or the pilot failed to make a report instructed by the controller (or in absence of an instruction, the standard midfield downwind report), that's the controller's fault, not the pilot's.
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This whole discussion is paradoxical. Tower controllers do not provide separation between VFR aircraft (AIM 3-2-5). That they do so as evidenced by this thread means that something has to be done about that.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
This whole discussion is paradoxical. Tower controllers do not provide separation between VFR aircraft (AIM 3-2-5). That they do so as evidenced by this thread means that something has to be done about that.

Bob Gardner
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But they do provide separation in the landing environment (same runway, intersecting, non intersecting, helipad, etc). In order to achieve that separation, the pattern occasionally needs to be adjusted (extend downwind, turn base now, make short approach, etc).
 
bobmrg said:
This whole discussion is paradoxical. Tower controllers do not provide separation between VFR aircraft (AIM 3-2-5). That they do so as evidenced by this thread means that something has to be done about that.

Bob Gardner
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They only separate aircraft on/over the runway(s). They provide traffic information and sequencing to other aircraft in their airspace.

Be careful what you ask for. If tower controllers were required to separate VFR aircraft in the Class D (what separation standard would you suggest?), it would significantly impact the amount of traffic they could handle.
 
Henning said:
LGB would either say "call on the 45" if it was busy, or clear me to land on first call if it wasn't. Most of the time coming into not busy airports I get cleared to land on first call, next person Imtalk to is ground.
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Or if you are coming out of TOA to do some pattern work at LGB, they tell you to report Signal Hill.
 
I'm beginning to see with a lot of posts that commonly used procedures to land at towered airports are geographically similar. In the north east in my experience flying into towered airports I always get the report midfield left/right downwind for runway xx.

It's probably that as controllers are trained in say the southwest or northeast, they see other controllers giving these certain instructions and just carry it on as their own preferred method of controlling traffic.
 
jimbilly said:
Student pilot here, been training at a class D, i've been instructed that if i haven't been cleared to land by midfield on downwind, call tower and report downwind. They'll usually call before that with instructions.
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Depends on the airport. I have trained at multiple towered airports and some request it and others (KFXE) will rip your head off for it. Follow the local controller instructions.
 
bobmrg said:
This whole discussion is paradoxical. Tower controllers do not provide separation between VFR aircraft (AIM 3-2-5). That they do so as evidenced by this thread means that something has to be done about that.

Bob Gardner
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Of course they provide separation services for landing traffic -- how could they not. What would be the point of the tower controller if they didn't provide separation services? Plus, there is also IFR traffic that requires separation from VFR traffic.
 
FTLAUSA said:
Of course they provide separation services for landing traffic -- how could they not. What would be the point of the tower controller if they didn't provide separation services? Plus, there is also IFR traffic that requires separation from VFR traffic.
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In Class Ds they provide separation over the movement area for arriving and departing traffic such as same runway sep or wake turb sep. There is no prescribed separation while transitioning or in the pattern for VFR vs VFR.

There is no separation in the Class D for IFR vs VFR other than the standard movement area separation (runway environment) as mentioned above. Services provided to a VFR in in or around a Class D are "Basic Radar Services." They may get sequencing to the primary airport with an LOA but separation from VFR or other IFRs is not provided unless the aircraft is operating SVFR. TRSA, Class C and Class B have prescribed separation for VFR vs IFR
 
FTLAUSA said:
Of course they provide separation services for landing traffic -- how could they not. What would be the point of the tower controller if they didn't provide separation services? Plus, there is also IFR traffic that requires separation from VFR traffic.
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No.

Will they call out traffic if they see it? Yes.

Are they legally responsible for keeping two VFR flights from hitting each other? No. Not in Class D. You are VFR... it's see and avoid.

Re IFR flights... If it's an IFR flight coming in during VFR conditions they flight is technically VFR in the class D and you should hear the tower either grant a visual approach (aka VFR) or tell the IFR flight to fly the published approach but maintain VFR at all times (aka it's see and avoid for traffic until you land).

If it's IFR in IFR conditions then there shouldn't be VFR flights up there and the Class D airspace is typically treated by allowing only one flight airborne in the airspace at a time... that's how separation is ensured. Not radar service from the tower.
 
FTLAUSA said:
Of course they provide separation services for landing traffic -- how could they not. What would be the point of the tower controller if they didn't provide separation services? Plus, there is also IFR traffic that requires separation from VFR traffic.
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I'll defer to McFly, who is a controller.

Bob
 
Velocity173 said:
In Class Ds they provide separation over the movement area for arriving and departing traffic such as same runway sep or wake turb sep. There is no prescribed separation while transitioning or in the pattern for VFR vs VFR.

There is no separation in the Class D for IFR vs VFR other than the standard movement area separation (runway environment) as mentioned above. Services provided to a VFR in in or around a Class D are "Basic Radar Services." They may get sequencing to the primary airport with an LOA but separation from VFR or other IFRs is not provided unless the aircraft is operating SVFR. TRSA, Class C and Class B have prescribed separation for VFR vs IFR
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Nothing in my post said anything about transitioning aircraft into or out of the Class D environment. My comment was regarding landing aircraft (the subject of the discussion topic), and the tower controller most certainly does control pattern and approaching aircraft for sequencing and landing. I chose my words carefully, perhaps they didn't get read as carefully.
 
Velocity173 said:
But they do provide separation in the landing environment (same runway, intersecting, non intersecting, helipad, etc). In order to achieve that separation, the pattern occasionally needs to be adjusted (extend downwind, turn base now, make short approach, etc).
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Right. On the airport there are required separation minimums. 3000 feet between dinks, 4500 feet between light twins, 6000 feet between faster stuff. Sometimes the runway has to be clear, sometimes the intersection has to be clear. Sometimes parallel operations cannot be authorized if the runways are to close. To achieve that separation instructions are given (follow, extend downwind, turn base now, make short approach, hold short, go around, etc.). In the air there are no separation minimums. Whether or not someone interprets that to mean the Tower is separating aircraft in the air in the Class D I guess is a matter of perception.
 
FTLAUSA said:
Nothing in my post said anything about transitioning aircraft into or out of the Class D environment. My comment was regarding landing aircraft (the subject of the discussion topic), and the tower controller most certainly does control pattern and approaching aircraft for sequencing and landing. I chose my words carefully, perhaps they didn't get read as carefully.
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No, I read them carefully and never said your comment on VFRs was incorrect. I was just trying to clarify that separation in a Class D. I used the transition and pattern statement because I believe that's what the AIM is getting at in Bob's reference.

Your statement on VFR vs IFR is a broad statement that only applies to TRSA, Class C and Class B airports or VFR practice IAP at the primary airport. I would say in that case, you need to choose your words more carefully.
 
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Agree with most of the above. However, I frequently fly at an airport that has lots of traffic and lots of trainee controllers (KVNY). Normally they tell me what to do. If they haven't or if I'm not sure (like when I'm #3 in the sequence and don't see traffic), I announce, "N37XXX" turning base. Typically they say "N37XXX Roger" or"N37XXX Extend Downwind".
 
Unless you are flying in a towered airport with little traffic, you will need to call on downwind and will either be cleared to land (#1, you decide when to turn base), cleared to land (#2,3,4,5... to follow specific traffic, so you follow that traffic), instructed to follow specific traffic in (but not yet cleared), or extended until further advised (tower calls base). Occasionally, they may have a faster plane/jet established on longer final and want you to go right for the numbers.

I train at a very busy class D (FRG) and I have never flown a pattern without calling tower on downwind, even if totally dead. Just the way I was trained to not turn base unless I make contact first.
 
Palo Alto Tower (PAO) never expects an unsolicited downwind call. Maybe it's because they have a radar display. :dunno:
 
I made an unsolicited downwind call once. I was flying a Cub and been cleared to land about 8 miles out. So ten minutes later, when I was on downwind, I figured I'd reminds tower I was still there.
 
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