Turning base at a towered airport.

jimbilly said:
Student pilot here, been training at a class D, i've been instructed that if i haven't been cleared to land by midfield on downwind, call tower and report downwind. They'll usually call before that with instructions.
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Haven't you been instructed to report downwind to tower on every circuit?
 
AuntPeggy said:
Haven't you been instructed to report downwind to tower on every circuit?
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I'm guessing not. Not every tower does that and for those that do, not all the time.

I'm trying to imagine my old home base asking for or, better yet, getting an unsolicited downwind report from every airplane in the pattern on a saturday morning (even excluding those that aren't doing any downwind) and have to chuckle at the idea. I'd bet those familiar with it can just picture the controller responding to all the self-announcements with, "Everyone in the traffic pattern, just shut the hell up unless I talk to you!"
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm guessing not. Not every tower does that and for those that do, not all the time.

I'm trying to imagine my old home base asking for or, better yet, getting an unsolicited downwind report from every airplane in the pattern on a saturday morning (even excluding those that aren't doing any downwind) and have to chuckle at the idea. I'd bet those familiar with it can just picture the controller responding to all the self-announcements with, "Everyone in the traffic pattern, just shut the hell up unless I talk to you!"
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That has happened when they are dealing with a situation, but I've been to a lot of Class D airports and always report downwind and request touch and go or stay in pattern or landing. That is the moment that they usually respond with clearance to land or the option or other instructions. If they beat me to it, I don't report downwind because we are already talking. Since a circuit takes 10 to 15 minutes, one single call per circuit per plane ought to be well handled by tower.
 
AuntPeggy said:
That has happened when they are dealing with a situation, but I've been to a lot of Class D airports and always report downwind and request touch and go or stay in pattern or landing. That is the moment that they usually respond with clearance to land or the option or other instructions. If they beat me to it, I don't report downwind because we are already talking. Since a circuit takes 10 to 15 minutes, one single call per circuit per plane ought to be well handled by tower.
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OTOH, I've been to a lot of Class Ds also and never have reported downind, base or final unless asked to (unless I was concerned about a situation). Seems to have worked just as well.

But 10-15 minutes sounds like pretty big circuits. I have a night currency flight from some years ago with 3 stop and goes in a 152 that included at least 10 minutes on the ground, with a total Hobbs time of 0.5.

Translate your 1 unrequested call per circuit to a Class D airport with 3 runways in use, over 300,000 operations per year, and 3 airplanes at various points on the downwind doing touch & goes on just one of the three runways.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I'm guessing not. Not every tower does that and for those that do, not all the time.

I'm trying to imagine my old home base asking for or, better yet, getting an unsolicited downwind report from every airplane in the pattern on a saturday morning (even excluding those that aren't doing any downwind) and have to chuckle at the idea. I'd bet those familiar with it can just picture the controller responding to all the self-announcements with, "Everyone in the traffic pattern, just shut the hell up unless I talk to you!"
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:yes: Well said!!!
 
I don't think most controllers would be mad if a pilot reported all downwinds and restated their intentions. If you reported every leg in the pattern or asked permission to turn crosswind or base, then you might annoy them.
 
Velocity173 said:
I don't think most controllers would be mad if a pilot reported all downwinds and restated their intentions. If you reported every leg in the pattern or asked permission to turn crosswind or base, then you might annoy them.
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Depends. If you have to struggle to get a word in edgewise, it may not be a good idea. It takes a lot less traffic than Centennial to get there.
 
10-15 mins per circuit? WTF?!?

In 10 minutes I cover 25nm.
 
EdFred said:
10-15 mins per circuit? WTF?!?

In 10 minutes I cover 25nm.
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Full stops at a large airport?

It takes more than that at SJC, which is why I don't go there.

I really doubt you fly patterns at 150 knots unless you fly a 737.
 
Request the option. A full stop taxi back is not a circuit.

A pattern on an 8,000 ft runway should be under 4nm total flown per circuit. Now, if you're flying your patterns at 24kts, yeah it will take 10 minutes.
 
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StinkBug said:
Yes, it absolutely is. The problem is if you decide to make a turn without telling the tower before they get a chance to tell you to follow you put yourself right into their path.
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That's the controller's concern. Sure, if you see someone ahead of you, don't turn without saying something, but I'm having trouble figuring how you could reach in a situation where the controller didn't get a chance to tell you to follow someone unless you failed to make the standard midfield downwind call.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
Maybe I wasn't clear... If cleared to land then it would be OK.

Where I've heard people get into trouble is if they're told on contacting the tower to enter a downwind and then without further instruction they just decide on their own to turn base. They just assumed they were good but in reality weren't paying attending and just cut-off someone coming in on a straight in final.
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If the controller didn't tell them about the traffic on a straight-in, or the pilot failed to make a report instructed by the controller (or in absence of an instruction, the standard midfield downwind report), that's the controller's fault, not the pilot's.
 
Clark1961 said:
Sometimes ya hafta tell. You're still PIC and it's your butt.
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What I meant to say is that if you thing there will be a conflict, ask if they need you to extend, conduct a short approach, etc.

It is you butt on the line but why not be helpful and not just do stuff that the controller isn't expecting just for thw sake of doing something.

Sent from my SPH-L900 using Tapatalk
 
red4golf said:
What I meant to say is that if you thing there will be a conflict, ask if they need you to extend, conduct a short approach, etc.

It is you butt on the line but why not be helpful and not just do stuff that the controller isn't expecting just for thw sake of doing something.
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I agree that generally one shouldn't do stuff the controller isn't expecting but be willing to tell the controller what you are doing to avoid a conflict. The controller can't see what you can see and/or may have misinterpeted the situation or may simply have a different perspective on the situation. In the end it is up to the pilot to decide what needs to be done. That decision may be to accept the controller's instruction or it may be to do something different. Certainly we need to communicate either way.
 
If I'm doing touch-and-goes, I call mid-field on the downwind leg if tower hasn't called me first.
 
Ron Levy said:
If the controller didn't tell them about the traffic on a straight-in, or the pilot failed to make a report instructed by the controller (or in absence of an instruction, the standard midfield downwind report), that's the controller's fault, not the pilot's.
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Is there a reference in the AIM (or elsewhere) the talks about this standard midfield downwind report?
 
One of the controllers at my home field has told me during pattern work that I don't need to report location. She knows where I am. So she gets "N12345, request the option". And she is good with that. Others don't seem to care either way.

She is also famous locally for her "Expect clearance on final", usually after you've been extended for a fly or a bird crossing over the airport at 3k.
 
Ron Levy said:
... (or in absence of an instruction, the standard midfield downwind report), that's the controller's fault, not the pilot's.
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:confused:


As asked above...where is a "standard midfield downwind" report anywhere in the FAR's or AIM??

Or are you just making this up as you go along? :rolleyes:
 
MikeELP said:
:confused:


As asked above...where is a "standard midfield downwind" report anywhere in the FAR's or AIM??

Or are you just making this up as you go along? :rolleyes:
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It's been part of the program for every tower controlled airport at which I've flown for 45 years (and that's a lot of airports and a lot of programs). Never checked to see if it was written anywhere. :dunno:
 
Ron Levy said:
It's been part of the program for every tower controlled airport at which I've flown for 45 years (and that's a lot of airports and a lot of programs). Never checked to see if it was written anywhere. :dunno:
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I find that kind of odd, you usually quote a ton of regs :confused:
 
MikeELP said:
:confused:


As asked above...where is a "standard midfield downwind" report anywhere in the FAR's or AIM??

Or are you just making this up as you go along? :rolleyes:
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Standard meaning typical, not regulatory.
 
When I do pattern work at GRR they never tell me to report downwind. Nor do they at MKG.

So this standard, isn't so standard.
 
I think people are confusing reporting downwind for the sake of reporting, as in non-towered field, with, checking in with the tower by reporting downwind if they haven't cleared you or provided instructions by the time you're midfield.

95% of the time you'd never do it, they'll be instructing you, its just if they haven't cleared you or given you instructions and you're in the pattern waiting for them basically. (and if they clear you to land you won't call your base/final as you're following your clearance and the tower is coordinating traffic).
 
scooter said:
At a towered airport with the tower open and working, when do you consider it appropriate to turn base from downwind?

- do you wait for the tower to give landing clearance or other instruction to turn base?

- or do you just turn base at a normal point in the pattern even if you have heard nothing specific from the tower, and assume that's what they expect, and that a landing clearance will be forthcoming?
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Once they clear you to land, you're good to do as needed. If they clear you #2 or 3, make sure you leave proper spacing. If you don't have the traffic in sight (call negative contact) often you'll get a "I'll call your base."
 
Ron Levy said:
It's been part of the program for every tower controlled airport at which I've flown for 45 years (and that's a lot of airports and a lot of programs). Never checked to see if it was written anywhere. :dunno:
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Never EVER done nor seen/heard anyone else do that at the towered airport I operate out of. So it might be part of the "program" for some airports, but certainly not all.

As far as the OP, I turn crosswind where I want(400-500 feet AGL), and then downwind wherever necessary to get the spacing away from the runway that I want. The tower usually tells me when I'm about at a midfield downwind to either "extend the downwind and I'll call the base", or clear to land. If I have to extend, at some point I'll get a "base turn your discretion, clear to land". There are variations on this depending on other traffic in the pattern or even jets coming in, but that's the jist of it.
 
jimbilly said:
I think people are confusing reporting downwind for the sake of reporting, as in non-towered field, with, checking in with the tower by reporting downwind if they haven't cleared you or provided instructions by the time you're midfield.
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Sure hope not since the whole thread has been about towered airports.
 
Maciej said:
Standard meaning typical, not regulatory.
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Even so. "Typical" can be pretty localized. It certainly wasn't typical for flying circuits at my home base and I've never even heard of regular unsolicited position reporting after initial contact at towered airports before this thread.
 
I know of no rule or regulation requiring any position reports in the pattern at controlled airports not requested by the Tower. Controllers requesting the downwind report is so common though, it would be easy to think it was "Standard." There is certainly no rule or regulation against doing it. I make unrequested reports sometimes when it becomes obvious the controller is confused about which airplane is where. I'm not suggesting we all just start doing it and congesting the frequency, but sometimes it's the right thing to do. More than once I've seen unrequested position reports get a pattern back under control.
 
You guys don't have specified reporting points for inbound traffic?
 
Stewartb said:
You guys don't have specified reporting points for inbound traffic?
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Not everywhere, and typically they aren't published where they exist. If they don't tell me to report on first contact, I just keep it coming for the pattern (or straight in where appropriate) and don't say anything until I pass the point where I would expect to be turning base without hearing anything. Once they clear me to land I'm done talking unless I need to go around.
 
Stewartb said:
You guys don't have specified reporting points for inbound traffic?
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Inbound yes, already in the pattern, no. Although, not specified as in published, more like requested by the facility on initial contact.
 
Henning said:
Not everywhere, and typically they aren't published where they exist. If they don't tell me to report on first contact, I just keep it coming for the pattern (or straight in where appropriate) and don't say anything until I pass the point where I would expect to be turning base without hearing anything. Once they clear me to land I'm done talking unless I need to go around.
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Pretty simple, really. :yes:
 
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