Trent Palmer (YouTuber Bush Pilot Channel) Suspended By FAA

Palmpilot said:
Do administrative law judge decisions set precedents? If so, are the decisions published?
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No really just appeals and higher for practical purposes…as they offer written decisions in the review.
 
Jim K said:
I didn't get that feel. Nothing in that video that's out of the ordinary for him.
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I found it and listened to it. He did say it was going to be different from what he usually does. I tried to find it again to get the time where he said that. But I can’t find it again. Do you have the link?
 
Regarding “the other side of the story”, I’m wondering if Trent and his friend with the RC field had any discussions about the neighbor who reported him prior to this incident. Did his friend relate with Trent any animosity this neighbor might have about RC model noise and possible overflights of his property? Was there a history of the neighbor complaining to Trent’s friend? If so, it seems to me, in an attempt to keep the peace with this neighbor, Trent and his friend could have taken this into account and either nixed the idea, or make sure all approaches/go arounds were directed away from the neighbor. Nothing dissimilar to noise abatement at various airports.

Just say’n that unfortunately, all this might have been avoided. I fear that a “screw the neighbor, I’m doing what I want” attitude might have been the flash point.
 
Silvaire said:
Trent Palmer has appealed the decision, he is still flying, it's still an open case. So as such he has no business airing this on Instagram and YouTube, drumming up a riot from his enormous fanbase against both the FAA and the complainant. There is a process to this and it's not about how many 'likes' you get on social media. It seems to parallel the Red Bull incident. Don't agree with the decision just ignore the FAA's authority and if you get more thumbs-up on YT you win. That ain't how the system works, nor should it be.
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I know what you meant by “…no business…” But there just may be a ‘business’ aspect to all this. Yeah, it’s not how the system is supposed to work. But unfortunately it does to a certain extent. Hmm. Unfortunately. Isn’t that a derivative of the word ‘fortune’
 
luvflyin said:
I found it and listened to it. He did say it was going to be different from what he usually does. I tried to find it again to get the time where he said that. But I can’t find it again. Do you have the link?
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yeah, I got all kinds of links. In fact I just bought 4 25' 5/16 g70 chains for the equipment trailer.


Oh you mean a link to the video? No. Can't help you. I can say that I've watched probably 3/4 of his videos, and the only things that stood out were the subject matter, and the fact that the music was too loud and there were a couple choppy cuts. His editing is usually flawless...the gold standard for YT, which is why he has so many subs, so it stood out. I think he made it in a hurry; couldn't speak to the motivation, as there wasn't much new in there.

Side note....I've become convinced editing is the key to being successful at youtube. The biggest channels have excellent audio and editing and make you want to watch even if you aren't all that interested in the subject. Well, that, or being good at video games.

luvflyin said:
Is Squarespace helping out with the legal fees?
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Money is fungible....
 
Palmpilot said:
Do administrative law judge decisions set precedents? If so, are the decisions published?
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The final decisions on most cases are published below. I don't believe any initial decisions are "published" but might be available via FOIA, etc.? As to whether final decisions set a "precedent" don't know but have seen previous decisions footnoted in other final decision filings.
https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/Pages/ONOQuery.aspx
 
This thread makes me want to start wearing my baseball hats with a straight bill, and I generally hate the look, but if if makes the right people dismiss me, maybe it is worth it!
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah, I was kinda liking this thread. Howsa about a moratorium on the gun stuff until at least the Appeal has been heard
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Or maybe like, I dunno... forever. Listen, I'm game for debating gun issues and a lot of other stuff, but absolutely positively not here.
 
DaleB said:
Or maybe like, I dunno... forever. Listen, I'm game for debating gun issues and a lot of other stuff, but absolutely positively not here.
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yeah, me too.

(sorry for the AOL-style post)
 
Bell206 said:
The final decisions on most cases are published below. I don't believe any initial decisions are "published" but might be available via FOIA, etc.? As to whether final decisions set a "precedent" don't know but have seen previous decisions footnoted in other final decision filings.
https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/Pages/ONOQuery.aspx
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I meant ALJ decisions that have not been appealed to the NTSB. I haven't been able to find any of those.
 
Silvaire said:
inevitable slathering of idolatry
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No comment on the OP topic, but got to like the unexpected and creative writing!

I’m adding this to the list next to “feeble babble”.
 
Palmpilot said:
I meant ALJ decisions that have not been appealed to the NTSB. I haven't been able to find any of those.
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Are you talking about certificate actions or civil penalty actions? If you're talking about the FAA civil penalty side under Part 13 those decisions should be stored in the links below. However, unless certain conditions are met civil penalty actions usually don't make it to the ALJ level. If they do it's usually handled by the DOT.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ractice_areas/adjudication/civil_penalty/pubs
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...agc/practice_areas/adjudication/civil_penalty
https://www.transportation.gov/foia/foia-electronic-reading-room-category-one
 
America On Line? Yikes - that’s a throw back. Now I’m remembering that modem buzzing noise and “you’ve got Mail”
 
Silvaire said:
Well, if by "pushback" you mean telling the story from your side without due process to an enormous crowd of gushing fans for the inevitable slathering of idolatry I disagree. He has permanently compromised the integrity of both the case and himself. I admire the guy for his videography skills and his part in the revitalization of general aviation with an influx of younger participants but grow up and stop playing the victim card. I'm going to have a real hard time losing sleep at night if Trent Palmer has his certificate suspended for two months. Give me a friggin' break.
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I wonder if Bob Hoover had similar sentiments aimed at him when he had to fight to get his medical back.
 
Bell206 said:
Are you talking about certificate actions or civil penalty actions? If you're talking about the FAA civil penalty side under Part 13 those decisions should be stored in the links below. However, unless certain conditions are met civil penalty actions usually don't make it to the ALJ level. If they do it's usually handled by the DOT.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ractice_areas/adjudication/civil_penalty/pubs
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...agc/practice_areas/adjudication/civil_penalty
https://www.transportation.gov/foia/foia-electronic-reading-room-category-one
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The subject of the thread is a certificate action, and people are worried about the precedent it might set. It doesn't seem to have been appealed to the NTSB, and I'm wondering if it can set a precedent without a written opinion being published.
 
So. Did they suspend it for 60 days, or is he appealing still and still has license? Or trying to get it back via appeal? Losing track
 
Palmpilot said:
The subject of the thread is a certificate action, and people are worried about the precedent it might set. It doesn't seem to have been appealed to the NTSB, and I'm wondering if it can set a precedent without a written opinion being published.
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It has been appealed.
 
So they recommend 210 days for Palmer's low approach and reduce it to 60 days. Meanwhile a rocket scientist in a Cirrus clips a high tension wire at 50 feet last month, while cruising at 180 mph, you know, at 50 feet. The cable impacted the vertical fin, removing the rudder. They estimate the cable was about six inches above the cockpit when he flew into it. He managed to land at an airport without incident, while being trailed by a police chopper. It's unclear to me whether the police chopper was following because of his antics or the ensuing emergency.

He ends up getting a choice between a revocation or a 709 ride, he chose the ride. He still has his license. Which offense deserves the harsher penalty, the Cirrus guy or Palmer?
 
Palmpilot said:
It doesn't seem to have been appealed to the NTSB,
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Palmpilot said:
So far nothing turns up in a search on his name.
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The only ALJ process I recall for certificate actions is through the NTSB. So if he is at the 1st level appeal then his next appeal is to the NTSB full board. But his public narrative is full of so many holes no telling where he's at in the process. However, unless things have changed until there is a final NTSB decision there won't be any record to find publicly unless you try a FOIA request.
 
His suspension has not taken effect yet, hence he is still flying.

Well, actually not. His Kitfox is now in Annual Condition Inspection and that last video was his last flight for a while.
 
IK04 said:
His suspension has not taken effect yet, hence he is still flying.

Well, actually not. His Kitfox is now in Annual Condition Inspection and that last video was his last flight for a while.
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I can't think of a better time to be suspended from flying, except maybe a major avionics upgrade.
 
PaulS said:
He ends up getting a choice between a revocation or a 709 ride, he chose the ride. He still has his license. Which offense deserves the harsher penalty, the Cirrus guy or Palmer?
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How do you figure Trent received a harsher penalty?

A suspension is simply a time out/go to the penalty box and cool off. When the time is up, back in the game you go.

A Revocation means no license. Period. You don’t get it back. You have to reapply/take a check ride for a new one…..OR, if offered the 709 ride, again you are grounded until you can get the FSDO to schedule and complete your checkride.

I don’t see a 709 ride as lighter punishment than a 60 day suspension.
 
Fearless Tower said:
How do you figure Trent received a harsher penalty?

A suspension is simply a time out/go to the penalty box and cool off. When the time is up, back in the game you go.

A Revocation means no license. Period. You don’t get it back. You have to reapply/take a check ride for a new one…..OR, if offered the 709 ride, again you are grounded until you can get the FSDO to schedule and complete your checkride.

I don’t see a 709 ride as lighter punishment than a 60 day suspension.
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I do, the 709 ride was done well before 60 days, at least that was my impression from the guy who wrote this up. If I were given the choice, 60 days or a 709, I'd take the 709.
 
PaulS said:
I do, the 709 ride was done well before 60 days, at least that was my impression from the guy who wrote this up. If I were given the choice, 60 days or a 709, I'd take the 709.
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60 days and out of jail or give the Faa another chance to screw you? Nah, I'll take the 60
 
Bell206 said:
The only ALJ process I recall for certificate actions is through the NTSB. So if he is at the 1st level appeal then his next appeal is to the NTSB full board. But his public narrative is full of so many holes no telling where he's at in the process. However, unless things have changed until there is a final NTSB decision there won't be any record to find publicly unless you try a FOIA request.
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Thanks for the clarification. The appeal decisions of the full board that I have read say that they are appeals from an ALJ oral decision, which leads me to believe that the board is working from the transcripts of the ALJ proceedings. If the transcript is the only documentation there is of the reasons for an ALJ decision that is not appealed, I'm wondering if the decisions in such cases have any precedential value.
 
Narwhal said:
If you think there has to be "more to the story" for the FAA to do this to Trent Palmer, well, you've had a very different experience than I with this agency over the last 20+ years. The only "more to the story" is probably that they were out to get him since they violated him on 91.13 for waterskiing a few years back. Who has this pilot injured or put at risk?
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There IS more to the story simply in terms of details that Trent is glossing over which leads one to ponder what he is actually omitting.

And yes, I have apparently had a different experience with the FAA than you have. By and large the FAA people I have interacted with in my 20 years in the business are professionals. Yes, there are rogue FSDO people, but they are the exceptions to the norm. Note, I am speaking in terms of FSDO folks. Medical in OKC is a very unique breed of government civilians.

I don't believe the FAA violated him here for doing a go around. Reading between the lines of his statements in the video, I suspect the issue is whether he should have been attempting to land there in the first place, and that in the course of his attempt to land, he came within 500 feet of someone other than the guy who gave him permission to land there.

Consider this: 10 acres of land is NOT that big of a piece of property and that is the size of the property on which the RC strip was located. If the lots there are 10 acres, it is very conceivable that there were neighbors within 500' of his attempted landing. Trent is naturally trying to get sympathy by bringing up implications for others. I can't say that I blame him for that, and I don't think he's a Trevor Jacob. I do think it is a little disingenuous to claim that he was violated for performing a go-around.

I have zero opposition to back country flying, but to use your 2nd Amendment analogy, just because I'm a firm supporter of the right to bear arms, doesn't mean that I think it's ok to discharge my firearm anywhere I please.
 
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