"Traffic to follow, report in sight"

[Gilbert Buettner]

But I don't recall EVER using Angels for altitude. But did do the XX point X call. Again, not proper from AIM, but controllers seem to understand.

No, I never used Angels for altitude, either, but I do remember hearing on Guard in Vietnam, "Bandits! Bandits! Angels seven, southbound" (and a reference to a fix I have forgotten). We were flying from DaNang to NKP across Laos and the thought of being jumped by a flight of MiGs was unsettling. However, the North Vietnamese fighters did not venture as far south as we were. At 7,000 feet they were lower than us, but in a C-130 that's not necessarily a good thing. Our only defense would be to get down very low above the jungle where we could hope our camouflage would make it hard for them to see us, and then to try to slow down and turn inside of them. The flight deck was very quiet until they turned away from the border and headed back north.

 

[Velocity173]

“Tally” and “no joy” were in our common terms in our aircrew training manual but like all brevity codes, shouldn’t be used with ATC. Even military ATC, for the most part the PCG should be standard. But, if it (military jargon) happens and the controller understands, eh, no biggie.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I've never understood "negative contact." I'm not trying to contact them. That's called a mid air collision.

 

[Larry in TN]

I've never understood "negative contact." I'm not trying to contact them. That's called a mid air collision.

The point of "Negative contact" and "Traffic in sight" is that they share no words and sound very different to each other. This prevents, when used properly, confusion when the transmission is partially blocked or garbled. It's the same reason that "Tally ho" and "No joy" is used in the military. The everyday meaning of the words in the standardized phraseology is less important than the uniqueness of the possible responses.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

The point of "Negative contact" and "Traffic in sight" is that they share no words and sound very different to each other. This prevents, when used properly, confusion when the transmission is partially blocked or garbled. It's the same reason that "Tally ho" and "No joy" is used in the military. The everyday meaning of the words in the standardized phraseology is less important than the uniqueness of the possible responses.

"Looking" doesn't sound like "traffic in sight." Why do people have a problem with it? Tradition? Get off my lawn?

 

[Larry in TN]

"Looking" doesn't sound like "traffic in sight." Why do people have a problem with it?

Because "looking" is not in the P/CG and "Negative contact" is.

Standardized phraseology reduces communication errors when there is standard phraseology is available for the message to be sent.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Because "looking" is not in the P/CG and "Negative contact" is.

Standardized phraseology reduces communication errors when there is standard phraseology is available for the message to be sent.

Why isn't phraseology tested in the ACS? I will now have to ponder that.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Because "looking" is not in the P/CG and "Negative contact" is.

Standardized phraseology reduces communication errors when there is standard phraseology is available for the message to be sent.

Having "such a problem with" a natural plain English initial response to a traffic call out because it doesn't appear in the PCG strikes me as part of the reason so many pilots are afraid to talk to ATC.

Besides, "looking [for the traffic you called out to me a half second ago]" isn't a replacement for "negative contact." You haven't even started to look for traffic when you say it. You say it as an acknowledgment you got the message. If it's a replacement for something in the PCG, it's a replacement for "Roger."

 

[flyingron]

This. I was on final at KCWA. No landing clearance. I called, "Tower, Bonanza 85 Tango, verify cleared to land." No answer. Then short final, I call, "Tower, 85 Tango, confirm cleared to land." No answer. I initiate the go-around, call "going around" and as I am climbing to pattern altitude, the controller says, "85 Tango, sorry, I was on the phone with Minneapolis and he wouldn't shut up."

I told him no problem, we need to practice go-arounds, too.

I once got a late handoff to tower from center and the tower made some crack about "that's why they're called enroute controllers."

 

[Pinecone]

Since the controllers are trained and experienced working with military pilots as well as civilian, I still don't see why it is such a faux paux to use Tally and No Joy?????

 

[flyingron]

"Looking" doesn't sound like "traffic in sight." Why do people have a problem with it? Tradition? Get off my lawn?

Because it conveys no information. ATC assumes you're looking. What they need to know is if you have it in sight.

 

[flyingron]

Since the controllers are trained and experienced working with military pilots as well as civilian, I still don't see why it is such a faux paux to use Tally and No Joy?????

Do you fly overhead breaks in the pattern as well?

 

[Pugs]

Well, probably best to not use "No joy," which is military jargon. Better to say, "Negative contact." I think that is also better than "looking."

And when you see the traffic, please don't say "tally" which is more military jargon. Would you tell ATC your altitude is "Angels seven, cherubs five?'

No they'd say Angels 7.5 At that point I call them Strike and report my fuel state.

 

[Velocity173]

Since the controllers are trained and experienced working with military pilots as well as civilian, I still don't see why it is such a faux paux to use Tally and No Joy?????

While those are pretty common terms, I’d say where do you draw the line of acceptable military brevity codes in ATC.

While controllers are taught different procedures for different branches, there isn’t any standard in brevity code training. Just like there isn’t any standard in a controller being taught aircraft type / performance.

I remember the first time I heard “popeye” when calling out traffic to an F-18. Looked over at my sup and was like “WTH is popeye?” Same as “angels” when they would return from the warning area. While I came to understand what they meant, I had no official training on those terms.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

Because it conveys no information. ATC assumes you're looking. What they need to know is if you have it in sight.

So do you just say nothing at first? Shouldn't you acknowledge the transmission? Looking means you're looking and you don't see then. Same as negative contact.

 

[Larry in TN]

So do you just say nothing at first? Shouldn't you acknowledge the transmission? Looking means you're looking and you don't see then. Same as negative contact.

Either "[callsign], Negative contact" or just "[Callsign]" would be consistent with the P/CG and communication recommendations in the AIM.

 

[Pinecone]

Do you fly overhead breaks in the pattern as well?

Sometimes yes.

When I was flying my friend's T-34, flew them a lot. Going in to Hickory one time, the tower offered me the overhead break.