Tower and ADS-B

LowHrsMan

LowHrsMan

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Washington
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LowHrsMan
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KVUO
Can controllers for class D airports that do not have radar (example: KBLI) see the ADS-B data for aircraft in their airspace ?
I've read on FF that controllers at KBFI get annoyed with VFR pilots who don't report a the published VFR reporting points, and was wondering why unless they can't see ADS-B?
 
Not sure about that airport, but I've encountered towered fields that use ADS-B as a crutch to the point that they would deny transit services to aircraft that they can't identify on ADS-B. Easy to have a computer with your choice of live traffic website running, even if you don't get an official feed.
I've had one such place tell me to buzz off because my ADS-B "was not operational". Tower boy couldn't cope with a target that reported VFR instead of an N-number.
 
In general, no. I asked my tower guys recently and they said they are not allowed to use adsb even as an aide to locate a plane. I got the feeling they might be doing it unofficially, but the official answer is that they are not equipped and not allowed to use it.

This does not apply to all towers.
 
LowHrsMan said:
Can controllers for class D airports that do not have radar (example: KBLI) see the ADS-B data for aircraft in their airspace ?
I've read on FF that controllers at KBFI get annoyed with VFR pilots who don't report a the published VFR reporting points, and was wondering why unless they can't see ADS-B?
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They do like their reporting points up there, I reported radial and distance on my initial call to KBLI and they still asked for the nearest point.

Truckee KTRK tower likes their ADS-B a lot, always points out when I am not broadcasting.
 
Salty said:
In general, no. I asked my tower guys recently and they said they are not allowed to use adsb even as an aide to locate a plane. I got the feeling they might be doing it unofficially, but the official answer is that they are not equipped and not allowed to use it.

This does not apply to all towers.
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I have heard the same regarding a local delta that lacks a radar feed.

When I toured the tower at a local bravo, IIRC some ASDE-X equipment had been generously donated by an airline.

GeorgeC,
and the kindness of strangers
 
Thanks to all who replied. It's amazing to me that the FAA spent so much time & money on ads-b only to not allow non-radar towers to use the data. It seems like there should be a safe and approved way for those controllers to use ads-b to increase SA in the tower.
 
LowHrsMan said:
Can controllers for class D airports that do not have radar (example: KBLI) see the ADS-B data for aircraft in their airspace ?
I've read on FF that controllers at KBFI get annoyed with VFR pilots who don't report a the published VFR reporting points, and was wondering why unless they can't see ADS-B?
Click to expand...
I believe the only way that a Tower can see ADS-B info is if they have a Radar. There is no way for them to use something like FlightAware, FlightRadar24, etc., as that data can be delayed. So if they were looking at an iPad showing the traffic, they could call out traffic to you at your 10 o'clock when it was really crossing right in front of you. Same reason why you should NEVER use Cellular Data or onboard WiFi for Traffic.

I know there's a lot of traffic up in the BLI area, so I'm wondering if they are pushing people using the Visual Reporting Points to sort of create their own (unofficial) VFR arrival procedure. I haven't been into BLI for a long long time, it will be interesting to see if I get yelled at if I fly in there and report like I do at airports across the country. :D
 
M20K said:
I believe the only way that a Tower can see ADS-B info is if they have a Radar. There is no way for them to use something like FlightAware, FlightRadar24, etc., as that data can be delayed. So if they were looking at an iPad showing the traffic, they could call out traffic to you at your 10 o'clock when it was really crossing right in front of you. Same reason why you should NEVER use Cellular Data or onboard WiFi for Traffic.

I know there's a lot of traffic up in the BLI area, so I'm wondering if they are pushing people using the Visual Reporting Points to sort of create their own (unofficial) VFR arrival procedure. I haven't been into BLI for a long long time, it will be interesting to see if I get yelled at if I fly in there and report like I do at airports across the country. :D
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Yeah, it’s like “…their own (unofficial) VFR arrival procedure…”. Here’s this on the Seattle FLY Chart. They also have a Graphic they put out to local pilots that specify how they want you to do things. I can’t find it right now.

1758222106443.png
 
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luvflyin said:
Yeah, it’s like “…their own (unofficial) VFR arrival procedure…”. Here’s this on the Seattle FLY Chart. They also have a Graphic they put out to local pilots that specify how they want you to do things. I can’t find it right now.
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I've seen the BFI chart and I had looked in FF and the BLI website to see if I could find any kind of an Arrival/Departure chart. So far I'm not finding anything official or unofficial either.

I'd suggest @LowHrsMan and the other local pilots see if they can get the Twr to come talk to them at a Pilots/Airport Users meeting so they can all work in sync. And I'd also be sure to get friendly with the Twr Chief and give them a call if they have a rouge Controller wasting airtime. Especially if the rant is not becuase the Pilot did anything wrong, just a Controller that doesn't get that planes arrive from different directions. :D
 
LowHrsMan said:
Thanks to all who replied. It's amazing to me that the FAA spent so much time & money on ads-b only to not allow non-radar towers to use the data. It seems like there should be a safe and approved way for those controllers to use ads-b to increase SA in the tower.
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Unfortunately the FAA is only going to allow tower controllers to use the products that are assigned to that facility. In this case, it’s either a certified radar display or non certified. There are limitations involved in each.

Also, you've got a lot (around 265) of private contract Class Ds and maybe a third of those don’t have a radar feed at all. Even the ones that do have a radar feed, some are not certified for any radar functions. The FAA is currently in the process to implement new radar (STARS) systems at towers but it’s a slow process. Contract towers aren’t very high on the FAA budget priority list. In fact, my brother recently quit ATC at one after only a day and said the tower was over 60 years old and was an absolute mess.
 
M20K said:
I've seen the BFI chart and I had looked in FF and the BLI website to see if I could find any kind of an Arrival/Departure chart. So far I'm not finding anything official or unofficial either.

I'd suggest @LowHrsMan and the other local pilots see if they can get the Twr to come talk to them at a Pilots/Airport Users meeting so they can all work in sync. And I'd also be sure to get friendly with the Twr Chief and give them a call if they have a rouge Controller wasting airtime. Especially if the rant is not becuase the Pilot did anything wrong, just a Controller that doesn't get that planes arrive from different directions. :D
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I would love to hear from the tower controllers, except I live near KPDX. However I'm flying up to KBFI today and will ask around in the pilots' lounge for best practices for VFR arrivals at KBLI.
P.S. I'm planning to call tower over VPCNB (Chuckanut Bay) so I don't get yelled at...
 
LowHrsMan said:
I would love to hear from the tower controllers, except I live near KPDX. However I'm flying up to KBFI today and will ask around in the pilots' lounge for best practices for VFR arrivals at KBLI.
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Let us know. Check the bulletin boards. It’s pretty common to find pictures of traffic patterns an noise abatement procedures there for a lot of airports. What Washington airport near PDX do you fly out of?
 
luvflyin said:
Let us know. Check the bulletin boards. It’s pretty common to find pictures of traffic patterns an noise abatement procedures there for a lot of airports. What Washington airport near PDX do you fly out of?
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Will do! I fly out of KVUO
 
Salty said:
In general, no. I asked my tower guys recently and they said they are not allowed to use adsb even as an aide to locate a plane. I got the feeling they might be doing it unofficially, but the official answer is that they are not equipped and not allowed to use it.

This does not apply to all towers.
Click to expand...
An airport very close to my home base transitioned to a class d in the past few years (contract tower).
There was a ‘meet the controllers meeting’ where they discussed the fact that they do not have radar and that they too are NOT allowed to use ADSB per the FAA. It was not a gripe session, but it was candid.
They may have suggested some use of ADSB on personal devices.
Their primary point - As a non-towered D, they are reliant upon accurate self-reporting of positions to do their job.
 
Not tower related but it looks like some facilities use 3rd party ADSB products as an emergency backup.

How ADS-B Exchange Works - ADS-B Exchange

Automatic Dependent Surveillance–Broadcast (ADS-B) is a surveillance technology that allows aircraft to automatically broadcast essential information, such as their current position, altitude, and velocity, at regular intervals. This information is relayed via radio waves, typically on the 1090...
www.adsbexchange.com www.adsbexchange.com
 
Velocity173 said:
Not tower related but it looks like some facilities use 3rd party ADSB products as an emergency backup.
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Great that they used all of the available resources... But it is pretty obvious why he remained "nameless" as I'd bet it was not officially allowed.
 
M20K said:
Great that they used all of the available resources... But it is pretty obvious why he remained "nameless" as I'd bet it was not officially allowed.
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I don’t know. I think if like the sup’s desk has one of the 3rd party products up on the desktop and used only for emergency, they could get away with it. A tower controller staring down at their iPhone as a primary source for aircraft position, probably isn’t going to happen though.
 
Velocity173 said:
I don’t know. I think if like the sup’s desk has one of the 3rd party products up on the desktop and used only for emergency, they could get away with it. A tower controller staring down at their iPhone as a primary source for aircraft position, probably isn’t going to happen though.
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In the Emergency situation, that's what I meant by all available resources. Great way to find the GENERAL area and get them headed back the same way.

But when I say GENERAL I mean GENERAL and if they used FlightAware or any of the other ADS-B sites, they're putting your life at risk!! Yes, the majority of the time they location shown with Internet Traffic is pretty close, but even FlightAware says it can be DELAYED. So it's great for sitting at your desk or even in XPlane or some other Sim, but not in the real world of flying. (Note: Internet Traffic used in a plane can not only have the latency or server delays at the source, but then you put in the potential delays in the Cellular or Satellite Data Network.)
 
uAvionix has been working with the FAA to get their software and ADS-B receivers approved for use by controllers. Last month the FAA approved their system for use in contract towers under the FAA APRT program https://www.faa.gov/airports/planning_capacity/non_federal/aprt

Controllers aren't allowed to vector traffic based on this, but it's now officially approved for situational awareness.

uavionix.com

Airborne Position Reference Tool

Transform tower operations with the Airborne Position Reference Tool (APRT) for seamless air and ground awareness integration.
uavionix.com uavionix.com
 
What a shame; so close to Flight Airborne Reference Tool...
 
GeorgeC said:
What a shame; so close to Flight Airborne Reference Tool...
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Umm... Same thing (I'm pretty sure). In the August FAA release they said "...the agency has approved a number of APRTs for purchase and operation by airports...."

I think APRT is a standard and uAvionix's has an APRT system. Flight... FlightLine... But still APRT.
 
GeorgeC said:
What a shame; so close to Flight Airborne Reference Tool...
Click to expand...

M20K said:
Umm... Same thing (I'm pretty sure). In the August FAA release they said "...the agency has approved a number of APRTs for purchase and operation by airports...."

I think APRT is a standard and uAvionix's has an APRT system. Flight... FlightLine... But still APRT.
Click to expand...
Might want to do an acronym check on the first quote. :)
 
Some Class D "VFR" Towers may have a repeater scope from the local TRACON or Center or "bright scope" back in the day that they could use for traffic awareness but they cannot "radar vector" for separation, they are not radar qualified. In today's technology, they may have a computer display to provide that information.

I regularly fly airplanes with no transponder, or transponder with no ADSB Out. I asked the local Class D if he had a "scope" or display from TRACON. No, all they can do is rely on position reports until they can be seen visually.

Up until a few years ago, I flew at a Class D VFR airport that was tucked under the local Class B. The Class B was divided between military control on the north and FAA control on the south. If I arrived from the south with Class B transition, the Class D tower could see my squawk and call sign. When I checked in they knew were I was. If I arrived from the north, through the military side of the Class B, they needed a very good position report as they did not get the feed from the military data to their FAA display. Again, they were Class D, VFR, not trained to use radar for separation, just situational awareness.
 
BillTIZ said:
Some Class D "VFR" Towers may have a repeater scope from the local TRACON or Center or "bright scope" back in the day that they could use for traffic awareness but they cannot "radar vector" for separation, they are not radar qualified. In today's technology, they may have a computer display to provide that information.

I regularly fly airplanes with no transponder, or transponder with no ADSB Out. I asked the local Class D if he had a "scope" or display from TRACON. No, all they can do is rely on position reports until they can be seen visually.

Up until a few years ago, I flew at a Class D VFR airport that was tucked under the local Class B. The Class B was divided between military control on the north and FAA control on the south. If I arrived from the south with Class B transition, the Class D tower could see my squawk and call sign. When I checked in they knew were I was. If I arrived from the north, through the military side of the Class B, they needed a very good position report as they did not get the feed from the military data to their FAA display. Again, they were Class D, VFR, not trained to use radar for separation, just situational awareness.
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Where was that?
 
Fun fact, I learned during the testing of an adsb transmitter. The tower could not see adsb only targets (1090 with mode c/s turned off). I assume the same would be true with 978mhz and no transponder.

If you have a mode S transponder (without adsb) your tail number is transmitted. So likely the controller would not know you are not adsb equipped.
 
LowHrsMan said:
Will do! I fly out of KVUO
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luvflyin said:
Let us know. Check the bulletin boards. It’s pretty common to find pictures of traffic patterns an noise abatement procedures there for a lot of airports. What Washington airport near PDX do you fly out of?
Click to expand...
No issues flying in/out of KBLI. Controller was perfectly nice to me and those who reported from positions shown on the sectional. My buddy called tower 10 miles out and was told he was too early and to call back when over one of the VFR reporting points. Also tower could not give me flight following and said they're not setup to do that and to call Whidbey Approach once airborne. Noise abatement on take off is pretty simple: do not turn until over the water. Turning early is a big no-no. I heard some guy get yelled at for that. Serves him right as it's posted all over the FBO.

Another slightly unexpected thing was tower vectoring traffic on both right and left downwinds at the same time. 16 is shown with right traffic on the sectional so a few guys setup expecting right downwind only to be told to fly left downwind.
 
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LowHrsMan said:
Another slightly unexpected thing was tower vectoring traffic on both right and left downwinds at the same time. 16 is shown with right traffic on the sectional so a few guys setup expecting right downwind only to be told to fly left downwind.
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Easton, MD (KESN) will do that on occasion. They’re great controllers and it’s never been an issue.
 
LowHrsMan said:
No issues flying in/out of KBLI. Controller was perfectly nice to me and those who reported from positions shown on the sectional. My buddy called tower 10 miles out and was told he was too early and to call back when over one of the VFR reporting points. Also tower could not give me flight following and said they're not setup to do that and to call Whidbey Approach once airborne. Noise abatement on take off is pretty simple: do not turn until over the water. Turning early is a big no-no. I heard some guy get yelled at for that. Serves him right as it's posted all over the FBO.

Another slightly unexpected thing was tower vectoring traffic on both right and left downwinds at the same time. 16 is shown with right traffic on the sectional so a few guys setup expecting right downwind only to be told to fly left downwind.
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I had been thinking you were flying to BFI, not BLI. It would have been at BFI where you may have found the graphics I was talking about at FBO’s. The RP 16R, 34R is not really intended to apply when the Tower is open. This is hinted at in AIM 4-3-3 d. 3.
“Right traffic patterns are not shown at airports with full−time control towers”
 
luvflyin said:
Where was that?
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Which? Sorry for the delay in answering. I don't check PoA on a regular basis.

KORH is Class D with no display from ARTCC or Approach Control, when I asked last summer 2024.
KVGT gets traffic from LAS TRACON and Nellis AFB Approach. TRACON controls the Class B on the south, Military Approach controls traffic on the north side. That was their configuration about 10yrs ago. They may have updated the system since then that VGT gets a display showing traffic from both sides. Class D towers are "VFR" towers and were not trained to use RADAR for SEPERATION. Only situational awareness. That too may have changed in the last few years.
 
BillTIZ said:
Which? Sorry for the delay in answering. I don't check PoA on a regular basis.

KORH is Class D with no display from ARTCC or Approach Control, when I asked last summer 2024.
KVGT gets traffic from LAS TRACON and Nellis AFB Approach. TRACON controls the Class B on the south, Military Approach controls traffic on the north side. That was their configuration about 10yrs ago. They may have updated the system since then that VGT gets a display showing traffic from both sides. Class D towers are "VFR" towers and were not trained to use RADAR for SEPERATION. Only situational awareness. That too may have changed in the last few years.
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I was just wondering where “…The Class B was divided between military control on the north and FAA control on the south...” was. I should have guessed that might be at VGT. I’ve flown around there before. Looks like that’s still how they do things there. The current TAC Chart does say contact Nellis up at the top.
 
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