Touch-n-Go Ban

Lowflynjack

Lowflynjack

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Jack Fleetwood
So this will be sure to stir up some heated discussion. For those not familiar with Austin, we had an almost abandoned airport called Bird's Nest. A rich guy bought it and rebuilt the airport into Austin Executive Airport. We were happy to see the airport saved and it basically created a new airport. We were assured he loved general aviation and wasn't just trying to get the rich guys in their Gulfstreams in there.

So last night I head over there to do some touch-n-goes. I've done them many times over the years and didn't think anything about it. As I'm making my radio calls, I hear a man on the scratchy radio saying something, but I can't understand him. Then I finally hear faintly, "Tailwheel Plane at Austin Executive". At this point, the lady working inside the terminal says, "This is Austin Executive, go ahead." He says, "No, I'm not trying to call you, I'm calling the tailwheel plane doing touch-n-goes. Touch-n-goes are not allowed at Austin Executive." Every time I tried to talk to him, he says my radio is unreadable, but everyone else can hear me clearly, so I'm assuming he was on a bad hand-held.

I was already on base, so I did another touch-n-go and left.

So this is a private airport. I get they don't want me there, it's become painfully obvious from the time someone working there was going to move my plane without my permission, the ban on tngs, the outrageous hangar rental rates, etc. However, if this is not a 100% privately funded airport, what would they have to do to ban tngs? If they have any federal funding, they would have to justify this ban to the FAA from what I've read. It's not a really busy airport, so no safety issue. It's not in a neighborhood, so no noise issue. What if I do tngs there? I guess they could ban me. What if I change to stop-n-goes? Not technically a tng, right?

I know there will be some people who say just leave it alone, and I may, but it just ruffled my feathers. Full disclosure, it is listed as no tngs in the AFD, which I don't read fully before going into an airport I'm already familiar with.

According to the FAA, but would this be only applicable if they took federal funding? I believe so.
14.8. Restrictions on Touch-and-Go Operations. A touch-and-go operation is an aircraft procedure used in flight training. It is considered an aeronautical activity. As such, it cannot be prohibited by the airport sponsor without justification.
 
Well, I guess you could do full stops(either a stop & go or a taxi back). Of course, these type of operations can leave you on the runway much longer causing the rich guy in his Gulfstream to need to go around.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Well, I guess you could do full stops(either a stop & go or a taxi back). Of course, these type of operations can leave you on the runway much longer causing the rich guy in his Gulfstream to need to go around.
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I was thinking stop & go, but I figure they would ultimately just ban me from their private property and I do need to go in there occasionally!
 
touch and goes should be banned at all airports!

(runnin' and duckin' and bobbin' and weavin')
 
Jack is it officially written that tngs are banned? I wouldn't take someone in another plane telling me tngs are banned there. Just curious.
 
The rule doesn't say they have to explain it to any airport user whose feather's are ruffled. The prohibition is published and hence you were ill-advised both from a regulatory and safety standpoint to intentionally violate the restriction. If you want to know, write the operator or follow up with the SW region Airport District Office.
 
mscard88 said:
Jack is it officially written that tngs are banned? I wouldn't take someone in another plane telling me tngs are banned there. Just curious.
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Yep. It's in the AFD in the Additional Remarks section. "TOUCH & GO LNDGS PROHIBITED" I didn't know this when I flew over.
 
flyingron said:
The rule doesn't say they have to explain it to any airport user whose feather's are ruffled. The prohibition is published and hence you were ill-advised both from a regulatory and safety standpoint to intentionally violate the restriction. If you want to know, write the operator or follow up with the SW region Airport District Office.
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I agree, I'm required to know in advance and I didn't, no argument. I'm questioning whether they have the right to make that ban. Once you accept federal funding, it's not as easy to just say you don't want certain activities. I'm trying to find the case, but in Florida a town decided airplanes couldn't do tngs, run-up their engines, and several other things. The FAA deemed these to be standard aircraft operations and ruled the city had no rights to ban these things.
 
Do we know who it is for sure? Maybe it is just one neighbor with a handheld and not the owner? Whoever it would be nice to get his name and phone number; maybe you can chat with him, find out what the issue is with your activities. (An airport owner is one thing, a neighbor may have different wishes.) It's possible you could slightly modify your tngs or pattern or times and all would be well.
(I have been to edc many times and really like the airport, the counter staff has always been very accommodating.)
Not seeing many neighbors on the sat view, btw:

https://goo.gl/maps/yFKaLRY3JfB2
 
mscard88 said:
Jack is it officially written that tngs are banned? I wouldn't take someone in another plane telling me tngs are banned there. Just curious.
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It's listed in the A/FD for KEDC, so I would think that makes it pretty close to being official? Nothing noted about prohibiting stop-n-go's though. :)

http://vfrmap.com/20160526/afd/sc/EDC_afd.png

Cheers,
Brian
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Do we know who it is for sure? Maybe it is just one neighbor with a handheld and not the owner? Whoever it would be nice to get his name and phone number; maybe you can chat with him, find out what the issue is with your activities. (An airport owner is one thing, a neighbor may have different wishes.) It's possible you could slightly modify your tngs or pattern or times and all would be well.
(I have been to edc many times and really like the airport, the counter staff has always been very accommodating.)
Not seeing many neighbors on the sat view, btw:

https://goo.gl/maps/yFKaLRY3JfB2
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Good point. No, I'm not 100% certain it was someone that works there. I left out one part. When I was coming in, there was an airport truck with a yellow flashing light on the taxiway, driving the length of the runway. I assumed it was him, but that was truly an assumption. I'm about 10 miles from this airport and just wanted to do a few landings right before sunset to relax. There was no other traffic and I only did 4 landings.

I did admit I didn't read the AFD and the ban is in there, but who really does before flying to a familiar airport. I know we're required to know the information about the airport, but if we're being honest, I'm assuming most of us don't read all the way down to the bottom where the additional remarks are. I look at runway lengths, conditions, obstacles, etc. Enough to make a safe landing.
 
Although the listing says that it is open to the public, AirNav also posts this:

Airport Ownership and Management from official FAA records

Ownership:​
Privately-owned <<======================== (could this make a difference?)
Owner:​
TRAVIS COUNTY FIELD LLC
2916 CARDIFF ROAD
BROOKSHIRE, TX 77423
Phone 512-247-7678
Manager:​
JODIE KALUZA
6012 AVIATION DR
PFLUGERVILLE, TX 78660
Phone 512-247-7678
 
Just come to SA and do your practice at KSSF. Plus you get cross country time.
 
So many of the noise complaints from airports are due to touch and go flight training.

I have to wonder why someone just doesn't pave a strip out in the middle of the desert and say "just go do it there, please"...
 
There are differences between ownership and use. This is privately-owned public use. I also think there are some issues here with pilot preparation...didn't read the NOTAMs and has his feathers ruffled.
 
An airport gets saved,and a bunch of pilots want to write the rules. Give the owner a break,it's posted ,obey the rules or go elsewhere.
 
If they get all aggressive with you, tell them you need to know who called on the radio and what radio it was done with, so that you can investigate if they have an operators permit for the radio....
 
dans2992 said:
So many of the noise complaints from airports are due to touch and go flight training.

I have to wonder why someone just doesn't pave a strip out in the middle of the desert and say "just go do it there, please"...
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KTNT
 
I understand both sides of the coin.
And I see a nice heated discussion brewing. How long till the thread gets locked? :)

Jack, a little trick for ya. Come during daylight and slow times, chat up the line guys, most of them are cool and love airplanes. Especially yours. Then if you come to do TnGs and they recognize you, there should be silence on the radio. :)
 
coloradobluesky said:
They do. Then somebody builds houses around it.
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What I'm suggesting is a purpose built strip of pavement, purposefully placed in a far out location - easy to get to from the air, but unlikely to be high traffic from the ground.

No FBO, no buildings, no desire for "growth" just a strip built for flight training...

I totally support the "airport was here first" idea, but I can't understand why local flight schools insist on doing repetitive touch and gos over "grumpy" locals when other options are a 5-10 minute flight away, that's all.
 
Wow, I stepped away from the computer for awhile and this thread blew up! I figured it would.

Let'sgoflying! said:
I think any reasonable person, upon seeing the beauty of your airplane, should beg you to do tngs at their airport.
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Thanks!

oldShar said:
Privately-owned <<======================== (could this make a difference?)​
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It absolutely does. Their airport, their rules.

MichiPilot said:
I also think there are some issues here with pilot preparation...didn't read the NOTAMs and has his feathers ruffled.
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A couple of things here... I admitted I didn't read all the way down in the AFD for an airport I've been to many times. Are you saying you do? Do you know the difference between an AFD and a NOTAM? There's no NOTAM, so it didn't pop up on my Garmin Pilot.

frfly172 said:
An airport gets saved,and a bunch of pilots want to write the rules. Give the owner a break,it's posted ,obey the rules or go elsewhere.
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Why do I have to give the owner a break? I'm just questioning it. I'm not sure he's asking for a break. Apparently he spent $33M of his own money to build this airport.

Fearless Tower said:
Maybe, but there are plenty of airports that get federal funding and don't allow Touch and Goes.
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Agree, but if it's a federally funded airport, that's our money. We have the right to question it and make sure they're following the rules. You can't take federal funds and then do anything you want with an airport. That's all I'm wondering. Private airport, paid for with your money, thanks for letting me play there. Your sandbox, your rules.

I'm really not in a fight here. A few have mentioned me saying it "ruffled my feathers". To clarify, the guy on the radio was hard to hear, yet he seemed to be getting mad that he couldn't understand me when I think it was his radio. This aggravated me a little. Had I read the AFD to the end, I would have known and this thread would never have been started... I was wrong.

If everyone here is honest, you have to admit you don't read all about every airport you're flying into, especially if you've been there many times. I don't think this rule has been there all along, but I don't know when it came about.

Again, if you have a private airport, you can do what you want with it and I either play by the rules or go away. Take federal funding and we have the right to complain and maybe get it changed.

A good example of this is in the 80s and 90s when ultralights were very popular, a lot of local airports started saying you couldn't land there without having a pilot's license, and N-Numbered airplane, or sometimes even insurance. The FAA had to get involved in a few times and threaten to make the cities repay the federal funding if they didn't stop banning aircraft. In cases where it made sense because of high traffic, they could ask the FAA to do a traffic study and determine if it was feasible.
 
The same guy owns Houston Executive (KTME) and he has the same restriction there... When I was training at West Houston (KIWS) I would float on over and do full stop landings with a taxi back.
I guess I can't offer a lot of value to this conversation other than to say I knew about it through word of mouth that was verified by reviewing the AFD.
One other note of caution, the traffic pattern is a bit odd at TME if I remember correctly...
 
I drove in there today to check it out again. It's not meant for us. They've even put Henriksen Jet Center on the door and they have "Authorized Personnel Only" on the doors that go to the ramp. I didn't ask if I was authorized. I've got plenty of airports to play at, not a big deal.
 
If your airplane is on the ramp, then that sounds like enough authorization to me.
 
Just do go arounds, can't fault safety...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Lowflynjack said:
I drove in there today to check it out again. It's not meant for us. They've even put Henriksen Jet Center on the door and they have "Authorized Personnel Only" on the doors that go to the ramp. I didn't ask if I was authorized. I've got plenty of airports to play at, not a big deal.
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I haven't flown there since March, but had a ton of landings there the past 2 years as I land there to visit my son at UT Austin. I've heard AC doing TNGs a few times there. I'd imagine they'd WANT TNGs on the shorter original runway to wear out the grass coming up in the cracks:confused:
 
If it's private, well not much to really say about that.
 
I've seen that kind of restriction before. Pretty sure it's listed in the 5C1 AF/D entry, too, although it was always unofficially meant to keep other flight schools from filling up the pattern.

Personally, I think it's stupid, annoying, and potentially hazardous to tailwheel folks. An addition of power if the plane gets squirrely on a landing is always an acceptable outcome as opposed to a ground-loop, so I think a "touch-n-go" out should always be legal. Besides, it isn't a landing in a tailwheel for currency purposes if you don't full-stop it anyway, right? It's about as stupid as someone publishing "no go-arounds."
 
Well for the saftey of flight, do what you gotta do and they can suck it, but if someone put their own bank roll into a airport and doesn't want touches and goes, I might not go there as much, but I'd honor their request.

Now if they are a publicly funded airport, I'll do touch and goes if I like.
 
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