Touch and Go Safety

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airheadpenguin

Pre-takeoff checklist
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airheadpenguin
I was approaching 7B2 today to land on 14, and on final ahead of a student at this point on downwind doing touch and goes. I announced my positions, as was the student. They seemed to be heeding my calls but not responding, even though I heard them on CTAF and the FBO confirmed that they heard me.

When I landed I was on the active and heard the student call that they were on short final. I was past the turn off and headed for the key at the end of the 3k ft strip, to taxi back. Not having heard anything from the plane on short final, that announced the intention for a touch and go I held in the key area where 10 seconds later they landed and departed.

I typically fly out of a towered field, so this behavior of having a touch and go use a runway with another aircraft on it even if taxiing seems odd and contrary to safety. I really would have expected them to go-around even though I signaled my intention to turn around in the key area but didn't do anything to signal that they were clear to land.

Is this common for untowered fields where backtaxi ops are required?
 
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No,looks like a serious mid communication,stuff happens,be safe.
 
Just a nit, but there is no such thing as an "active" at an uncontrolled airport.

I'm based at 7B2, did you announce your intention to hold in the keyhole? It's generally not a big deal there but hard to know without witnessing what happened.

There is no problem with doing the touch and go while you held there.

Student pilots always deserve a bit of a wide berth...


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I announced my intention to hold in the key only once I was on the ground and past the midfield turn off and uncertain of the other plane's intentions. It wasn't a big deal since I know the airport and had good situational awareness. If I'd done something like stop midfield to make that turn off it could have been ugly, that's not why I'm asking though.

I'm more curious if this is expected behavior since we don't do this at towered fields.
 
Welcome to life at non towered fields. The one I trained at had T&Gs in left pattern, helos doing right patterns, IFR approaches and transient traffic coming and going because of cheap fuel. Oh, and the warbird guys doing overhead breaks...:yikes: Weekend mornings were the worse. Oh yeah, there are crossing runways at the field. We all survived somehow but there were days...
 
airheadpenguin said:
I announced my intention to hold in the key only once I was on the ground and past the midfield turn off and uncertain of the other plane's intentions. It wasn't a big deal since I know the airport and had good situational awareness. If I'd done something like stop midfield to make that turn off it could have been ugly, that's not why I'm asking though.

I'm more curious if this is expected behavior since we don't do this at towered fields.
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They should have asked or gone around if they didn't know you were to hold in the keyhole, but since you did the courteous and correct thing and held for landing traffic (immediate taxi back is a no no) then they were fine to proceed and indeed that's normal!


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After all you knew he was behind you and since you missed the only turn off before the far end of the runway what else would you do except proceed to the end and get clear?


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Did your CFI cover non-towered operations with you before signing you off to fly to this airport? How many non-towered fields have you flown to?
 
Your language saying "signaled that they were cleared to land" shows a misunderstanding. Your job is to get clear expeditiously and announce clear, and to hold short not taxiing on the runway until landing traffic permits. They had every reason to believe you'd be clear and you got clear. And held. Until you had a chance to back taxi.

You don't clear them to do anything...


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My CFI covered non-towered ops, several years ago. Its hard to differentiate towered vs non-towered fields in my logbook without looking them all up.

What's the concern other than flying a practice approach to a full stop and not breaking off the approach and joining the pattern when we got there?
 
Your second paragraph doesn't make any sense to me, I don't see your issue...


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gsengle said:
Your language saying "signaled that they were cleared to land" shows a misunderstanding. Your job is to get clear expeditiously and announce clear, and to hold short not taxiing on the runway until landing traffic permits. They had every reason to believe you'd be clear and you got clear. And held. Until you had a chance to back taxi.

You don't clear them to do anything...


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Correct, what I meant was that I didn't do anything to encourage them to land behind me or go-around. Its not up to me to play ATC :)
 
Yep it's your job to get clear and they judged correctly that you would and had you in sight the whole time I bet and you then even confirmed correctly that you were holding clear of the runway in the keyhole. All sounds good to me.


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airheadpenguin said:
My CFI covered non-towered ops, several years ago. Its hard to differentiate towered vs non-towered fields in my logbook without looking them all up.

What's the concern other than flying a practice approach to a full stop and not breaking off the approach and joining the pattern when we got there?
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Practice instrument approach in VMC conditions? If yes, then you still have to look for traffic in the pattern and attempt not to cut anyone off. Might be 3-4 in the VFR pattern already.
 
Nothing wrong with a straight in unless too busy. Remember a student practicing approaches with an instructor under the hood is practicing down often to 200ft, agl. From there you don't break off and fly a normal pattern...


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So, he heeded your calls but did not respond to them. Did you ask a specific question?
Non towered airports are "broadcast" position and intentions, not carry on a conversation.

You landed long and rolled to the end, into the "key", so yes, the next plane doing a touch n go behind you is no big deal. I'm sure if he had seen you taxi out of the key he would have gone around.

You turned into the key (cleared) and stopped, so the runway was available for a TnG.
Why should they break off their approach just because you arrived?
 
BillTIZ said:
Why should they break off their approach just because you arrived?
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This was actually my question, at my towered field even if the full-stop on the field is 5k ft down the runway when they're ready to TnG they'd be sent around. They were on the ground when I had completed by turn in the key and was perpendicular to the runway. Given that untowered ops tend to differ, I was wondering if this was normal for untowered or not since I believe I was clear after they had touched down but before there was any imminent danger as long as everything went to plan.

Its been pointed out a few times that everything did work out, because everyone was doing what was expected.
 
mscard88 said:
Practice instrument approach in VMC conditions? If yes, then you still have to look for traffic in the pattern and attempt not to cut anyone off. Might be 3-4 in the VFR pattern already.
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Flying a straight in and being 2-3 mile final while the other plane is on downwind and short final when they turn base doesn't seem like cutting someone off.
 
Yeah but the regs make clear that the plane on final has the right of way, and you need to extend your downwind if you have to...


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On uncontrolled fields I try to speak with a German accent and declare an emergency. I just make my way to tarmac as fast as possible. If anyone says anything I just pretend I don't speak English.
 
Lol


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It seems like untowered fields have their own personalities, where local procedure/custom is more pronounced than at towered fields which are whitewashed by FAA rules.
 
Yes but in this case none of that was local custom, just flying by the rules of uncontrolled fields... although a runway you have of back taxi due to lack of taxiway and a key hole are situations not every airport has...


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airheadpenguin said:
Flying a straight in and being 2-3 mile final while the other plane is on downwind and short final when they turn base doesn't seem like cutting someone off.
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Didn't say that. I was answering your question. Reread it. ALL of it.
 
Sorry, once you leave the airplane, another plane landing has the right of way over anything you want to do. I'm not seeing the issue. A T&G will get him out of your hair faster than if he had landed (and possibly overshot the midfield turn). What makes you think you sitting comfy on the ground has any rights over a landing aircraft?
 
I was still on the runway, my plane hadn't crossed any hold short lines when the other plane landed.
 
Hard to know if he/she was recklessly close. Probably not, but none of us were there and you still have responsibility to expeditiously clear the runway...


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airheadpenguin said:
I was still on the runway, my plane hadn't crossed any hold short lines when the other plane landed.
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Still sounds safe to me. Plenty of runway there, and you were off the centerline off in the holding area. You were communicating, they knew what you were going to do.
 
I think he means he was not yet in the holding area as the other plane touched down...


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gsengle said:
They had every reason to believe you'd be clear and you got clear. And held. Until you had a chance to back taxi.
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But it's their job as PIC to confirm that, not just rely on his word. If I understand correctly, it appears that someone failed to do that.
airheadpenguin said:
See the attachment, the 2 semi-circular areas at the ends of the runway
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Those semi-circles have always been known to me as the run-up positions. The "key" is a first for me as well.
 
Not key, keyhole.

We have no reason to believe that the PIC didn't have him in sight the entire time.

The nuance here is that this space is used for clearing before back taxiing if you use full length as there is no taxiway to that end of the runway.

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Ryanb said:
But it's their job as PIC to confirm that
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No, it's really not. The rules say they shouldn't use the landing preference to force you off a runway, but if you're heading off the runway it is then incumbent on you to stay out of the way of landing aircraft. Had you pulled back on the runway, you'd be 100% at fault.

I'm still not seeing how them doing a touch and go rather than any other landing makes any difference here. There would have been more problems if they had attempted a full stop landing. You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder about touch and go operations to the point it is clouding your ability to safely operate in airspace with others.
 
Cmon don't beat up the OP, he asked a reasonable respectful question, we are having a civil discussion and there is no need to escalate this to "massive chip on shoulder" smh


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flyingron said:
No, it's really not. The rules say they shouldn't use the landing preference to force you off a runway, but if you're heading off the runway it is then incumbent on you to stay out of the way of landing aircraft. Had you pulled back on the runway, you'd be 100% at fault.

I'm still not seeing how them doing a touch and go rather than any other landing makes any difference here. There would have been more problems if they had attempted a full stop landing. You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder about touch and go operations to the point it is clouding your ability to safely operate in airspace with others.
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I must not be understanding the situation. The way I took it was that the OP was already on the ground and holding in the "keyhole" while the student did a T/G on the runway.

If I'm on final and an aircraft had just landed in front of me, it is my job to scan the runway and confirm they have cleared, before I land. Not just assume they have taxied clear. Not sure how someone wouldn't notice, but that's how I'm thinking.
 
The op seems to be saying the pilot behind him may have touched down before he cleared. Not that that is necessarily a problem either.


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gsengle said:
Cmon don't beat up the OP, he asked a reasonable respectful question, we are having a civil discussion and there is no need to escalate this to "massive chip on shoulder" smh


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Not beating anyone up. Pardon me if I come across that way.

If the OP was holding in the "key" while the student did the T/G, I see no problem with that. He was clear and not posing any kind of traffic confliction.
 
Again no, he was headed for the keyhole when the other pilot touched i.e. before the op got there or crossed the hold short line and he thinks the other pilot may have cut it close...


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I'll explain it one more time, I was on the runway taxiing towards the holding area at the end and another plane decided to land on the runway that I had not yet cleared. If this was a full stop I would say it was a safety foul, but since it was a T&G it seems grayer.
 
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