Some folks are more flexible than others.
Touch and Go Safety
- Thread starter airheadpenguin
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Lachlan
En-Route
But the OP called it "key" and "key area" not "keyhole" so even among you fellers @ 7Bravo2 there's no convention. I hear circus music...
Excellent point. You can still argue it either way but I wonder how many people looked before commenting.
Is there someone other than @gsengle from there (currently, I mean; I left about 25 years ago)?
I am from close by in MA and have been in and out of there a few times. I would have no idea what someone is walking about if they said "key area"
Me either. I never heard either term when I flew out of there.
"Keyhole" I'd figure out easily enough on the fly (so to speak). "Key area" not so much.
gsengle
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He is a transient, I'm based there. It's referred to as the keyhole.
On a side note this is a really cool active community airport and flight school.
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MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
can someone educate me (a low time PP with very little uncrontrolled time)
i thought that the definition of runway incursion is more than one plane at a time on the runway. to my understanding, i thought that no plane (whether landing or taxiing) can pass the hold short line/touch the runway until the other plane is fully clear of the runway
James331
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SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Not true. ATC will give the "line up & wait" instruction while another aircraft is still on the runway. Also at most non-towered fields, the aircraft waiting to take off will frequently pull onto the runway right after the aircraft in front of him has started his takeoff roll or when the landing aircraft has passed by.
mscard88
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All true SkyDog. In the controller's handbook it's called "anticipating separation". At the Air Force bases I worked towers at we could even use "reduced runway separation" between like aircraft, fighters for instance, so an F-15 could land behind an F-16 as long as the F-16 was 3000' or more down the runway. Think that's how I recall it, sound right Tim?
dmspilot
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That's not the definition of a runway incursion.
https://www.faa.gov/airports/runway_safety/media/pdf/PHAK - Appendix 1 - April 2012.pdf
The turn around looks just like I expected from the initial explanation. once he was past the line at the end of the runway it was his responsibility to stay clear of the following aircraft. I'm sorry he thinks the is unfair, but it was his responsibility to wait until there was no more landing traffic before heading back to back taxi. I'm not seeing anything wrong on the other aircraft's part.
flyingfrog
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I fly out of a very "informal" private use airport. The runway is 2,900 feet of asphalt, but all taxiways are grass. It is pretty common to roll out to the end of the runway or turn off into the grass (not necessarily on the taxiway) to make room for arriving traffic. The bottom line is you were paying attention and playing it safe. The other people may have seen you and felt safe, or perhaps it was a busy flight lesson and they never knew you were there. Personally, I hate not being able to see landing traffic behind me. I always prefer to exit the runway and turn where I can see the traffic, but I know that isn't realastic on runways with edge lights and unprepared infields.
Whether he had the ability to land and taxi off is irrelevant. He didn't and that's the scenario both pilots had to deal with.
BTW, you may notice I haven't taken sides. I wasn't there.
James331
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Agreed.
However when it's busy, it's just common curtesy to minimize your time on the active runway. Most GA planes should be able to get off at the mid field taxiway without heroic measures.
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
Thanks. I've never seen our controllers do this, even when it gets very busy. Good to know
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I've also landed on a runway before another airplane had taxied off at a towered airport. First time, I said I was going to go around and ATS replied I was cleared to land "sufficient spacing."
Checkout_my_Six
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Ours does the opposite.....+5,000 ft runway and if a poor soul is in the middle of it exiting....you're going around.
gsengle
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Yes but please there isn't any such thing as an active runway at an uncontrolled airport. They are all available for use and no one controls who uses what. Don't ask for the active don't tell someone the active, that's controlled airport terminology....
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James331
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... what's your experience level?
If everyone is using runway 18, that's the active as far as most folks are concerned.
Yes, you could be a blazing idiot and shoot 36, no the non existent tower won't prevent it, but the flow of traffic and having an IQ above that of a house hold pet WOULD prevent using 36 when you got 4 planes in the pattern for 18, that's called airmanship and common sense.
Also
Definition of active
5: marked by vigorous activity : busy <the stock market was activ
10: marked by present operation, transaction, movement, or use <anactive account
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Yeah, but you likely have four planes landing downwind because the lemmings won't suggest that they ought to be using the more favorable runway.
Without ATC declaring it the active, it's my job as a pilot to declare it as the active. So in all reality, yes I do.
gsengle
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James331
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I'll chirp up and ask if folks want to change, but if not, the active is the ones folks are using, rather go land with a tailwind than go head to head with 4 weekend warriors in their 172s.
ATC defining active < 4 3,000+lb pieces of aluminum going over 100MPH defining as active.
If you need ATC to tell you which is the "active" that's ....not good
Well like your CFI should have taught you, you communicate with the other pilot and arrange something safe, all else fails and he's an idiot or doesn't have his listening ears on, you land after him.
Dangerous? So who is supposed to make the decision as to what runway is in use at an non-towered field? Me, the pilot. I disagree with your argument.
Ever called up UNICOM and asked for airport advisories and they tell you which runway is in use? I suppose that would be dangerous as well.
gsengle
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This is an uncontrolled field. There is no atc, therefore no one active runway. Every pilot gets to pick for him or her self. Saying you're doing something like "taking the active" is poor form because it's potentially ambiguous.
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gsengle
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Yep it's dangerous. You call up "taking the active". You're departing 32. Someone is landing 14. They think that's the active. No atis no atc. Good phraseology is "departing runway 32". So yes it's dangerous. At an uncontrolled field there is no one "active" runway and implying otherwise is problematic. They are all active unless closed.
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James331
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I take it you fly/train out of a towered field?
If there are planes in the pattern, not observing and listening before making a plan is in bad forum. If you got a few guys landing 15, that's the active.
If you're the only one, yeah, say you're landing 15.
The argument he disagrees with:
Violent agreement!
Non-towered field. Pilot decides on which runway. Input of other valuable but not binding.
gsengle
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Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like what they think a pro sounds like
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James331
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Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like a pro
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You also can pick to drive south bound on a north bound road, or try to exercise your right of way as a pedestrian with a semi truck in a iced road.
Saying the active is no bueno, but "the key" is cool??
Guess I'm a pro trying to sounds like newbie lol
But as far as any runway you want being the active, no matter of the traffic sounds a lot like
If you got folks in the pattern for one runway, you taxi off and say clear the active, every single pilot working that runway knows exactly what you're talking about.
Say something about "the key" and not so much,
That's the whole point, you've said it's not the pilots' job to declare a runway the active, but now you say we as pilots "get to pick YOUR active."Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like a pro
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Sounds like you contradicted yourself.So that's the whole argument I'm implying. There is no ATC declared active runway, but it's our job as pilots to declare it the active, whether others' agree with my active runway or not, that's the RWY I've chosen to use.
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MAKG1
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Why is it important to label any particular runway as active?
I was at Watsonville a few days ago. There was one other aircraft, landing 27. I landed 20, since I don't think freaking out soccer moms at the shopping center is very nice (it's VERY close to the 27 threshold). Which was "active" and why does it matter?
Announce a runway number, and people don't have to guess what you mean.
I was at Watsonville a few days ago. There was one other aircraft, landing 27. I landed 20, since I don't think freaking out soccer moms at the shopping center is very nice (it's VERY close to the 27 threshold). Which was "active" and why does it matter?
Announce a runway number, and people don't have to guess what you mean.
You won't sound like a newbie. Plenty of pilots use the term. Some very, very experienced. Just an unfortunate habit like "with you." I stopped getting all bent out of shape about people using the term "active" at nontowered fields.Yes you get to pick YOUR active. You don't get to call it THE active. So don't say it, or you sound like a newbie trying to sound like what they think a pro sounds like
"Clear of the active" is completely harmless. All it tells me is they are no longer on a runway, and that's all I care about. One could just as easily say, "clear of the runway" with no number at all, even at airports with multiple strips of runway pavement. Same for "taxiing to the active." "Taking the active" is potentially a bit more problematic, but I really don't hear that one much - "departing runway [number] seems to be common even among "active" people. Besides, I figure I can see them when it matters. And frankly, I have never heard "left downwind for the active" or "short final, the active."
So, while technically wrong to use the term "active runway" at a nontowered field, and I teach my students to avoid it, it's mostly much ado about nothing.