Touch and Go Safety

Sorry man... I can't imagine a scenario where you were taxiing to the turnabout position, or taking the right turn concentrating on your 180 to be perpendicular to the runway where you could look Left to see the other plane, where you could actually know when or where the the other plane did it's T&G.

That's a terrible run-on sentence. Point being... on the runway you couldn't possible see your six. Making the turns back to perpendicular you may have looked down the runway but I doubt you did. And when you did look, well, how much time had elapsed?

I've seen these "keys" that did have hold short lines. Might want to recommend that to the airport manager (if there's enough pavement)
 
airheadpenguin said:
I'll explain it one more time, I was on the runway taxiing towards the holding area at the end and another plane decided to land on the runway that I had not yet cleared. If this was a full stop I would say it was a safety foul, but since it was a T&G it seems grayer.
Click to expand...
I see what you're saying. I also operate off of a 3k ft. piece of pavement and under normal circumstances, nobody should be utilizing the runway without it being clear, whether it was a full stop or a T/G. Sounds like poor judgement on the students' behalf.
 
Last edited:
I was based at a 3000' field for seven years. Most of us didn't do TNGs because of the trees. But the runway was 75' wide, so no keyholes to hide in. If someone else was coming in to land behind us, we would just rollout to the end or taxi into the grass and watch (the lights were 200' wide, about 10' on one side, the rest onto the other). There was no parallel taxiway, just an entry 1000' from the preferred end, so almost everyone had to backtaxi to park.

But being non-towered, no one was cleared to depart, cleared to land or cleared for the option. Right of way goes to aircraft on final per the FARs. The fun part is that radios aren't required, so some planes don't have them, some don't use them, some use them wrong and some are on the wrong frequency.

The OP's big problem seems to be that no one cleared the plane behind him to land. But with no tower, who does he expect to give any clearances to anyone?
 
"Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach."
 
Diffrent sensibilities; I'm not hearing any big deal, but the OP asked, so it mattered to him. . .if both planes were 172-class, 3,000 feet is a long way, and if the trailer intended a touch-and-go, no harm done.

We have variable thresholds on this stuff, for sure - I rolled out and lauched, after a CFI and student turned a 1 and 1/2 mile final sometime back. He was morally outraged; I heard him out, fair enough, but told him I wasn't buying it; I had departed the pattern on cross wind before they touched down.
 
airheadpenguin said:
I'll explain it one more time, I was on the runway taxiing towards the holding area at the end and another plane decided to land on the runway that I had not yet cleared.
Click to expand...

Compare this latter post to your OP.

airheadpenguin said:
When I landed I was on the active and heard the student call that they were on short final. I was past the turn off and headed for the key at the end of the 3k ft strip, to taxi back. Not having heard anything from the plane on short final, that announced the intention for a touch and go I held in the key area where 10 seconds later they landed and departed.
Click to expand...

So which was it? Had you not yet cleared or did they land 10 seconds after you held in the key? Can't be both.
 
gsengle said:
Not key, keyhole.

We have no reason to believe that the PIC didn't have him in sight the entire time.

The nuance here is that this space is used for clearing before back
Click to expand...

Let's use real aviation terms, ok? That might have helped prevent this whole thread. It sounds like people at 7B2 run a little loose on both procedures and verbiage. Telling another pilot that you're chillin' at the crab shack or bobbing for apples isn't all the lay helpful. Let's stick to convention to keep ourselves and others as safe as possible. Or maybe I'm just a total keyhole...
 
Lachlan said:
Let's use real aviation terms, ok? That might have helped prevent this whole thread. It sounds like people at 7B2 run a little loose on both procedures and verbiage. Telling another pilot that you're chillin' at the crab shack or bobbing for apples isn't all the lay helpful. Let's stick to convention to keep ourselves and others as safe as possible. Or maybe I'm just a total keyhole...
Click to expand...
Help us out. What is the "real aviation term" for "circular taxi area at the end of a runway not connected to any other taxiway, used by aircraft to hold before takeoff or back-taxiing at an airport with limited taxiway access to allow other aircraft to take off and land"?

BTW, I'm enjoying this thread, even if for no reason other than 7B2 is where I learned how to fly :)
 
Original statement:
I held in the key area where 10 seconds later they landed and departed.
Click to expand...
Revised story:
I was on the runway taxiing towards the holding area at the end and another plane decided to land
Click to expand...

I'm not playing this game anymore. The issue here is neither safety nor the regs, but the poster wanting to vent about student pilots and revising his story when it doesn't work.
 
The fact is there's no runway separation requirement at an untowered field, and the right-of-way rules don't apply if there's not a conflict. The OP wasn't "forced off the runway," and the following plane was apparently down and up with no conflict. If the question is did the following pilot do something wrong, it's not obvious that he did.
 
Lachlan said:
Let's use real aviation terms, ok? That might have helped prevent this whole thread. It sounds like people at 7B2 run a little loose on both procedures and verbiage. Telling another pilot that you're chillin' at the crab shack or bobbing for apples isn't all the lay helpful. Let's stick to convention to keep ourselves and others as safe as possible. Or maybe I'm just a total keyhole...
Click to expand...

Not sure what's problematic. You land. You declare clear of the runway. If you find yourself in the keyhole (name of a place since it isn't a taxiway with a letter) you let others know either holding short there or back taxiing 14. No nonstandard phraseology in sight... if you were holding in the grass you could say holding in the grass. Or wherever. It's helpful to landing traffic to know you're holding....

Tell me what conventions would be more appropriate?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
midlifeflyer said:
Help us out. What is the "real aviation term" for "circular taxi area at the end of a runway not connected to any other taxiway, used by aircraft to hold before takeoff or back-taxiing at an airport with limited taxiway access to allow other aircraft to take off and land"?
Click to expand...

I'd refer to it as the runup pad for RWxx. We have them here in TX too, F46 for example.
 
If it was me, I would have had to ask for clarification on what he meant by the "keyhole" and it sounds like several others would've had to do the same. A mis-understanding sounds probable here.
 
There is no standard term for the turnaround that I'm aware of...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ravioli said:
I'd refer to it as the runup pad for RWxx. We have them here in TX too, F46 for example.
Click to expand...
Similar things exist in a number of places. I've just never heard an official (or at least standard) aviation term for them. @Lachlan suggested there was one and I was trying to learn it.

(Personally, at an airport like 7B2 or even F46, I would do my runup before ever back-taxiing to the "back taxi turnaround: :D. Why taxi all the way down a runway just to taxi all the way back if there's a problem?)
 
All I have to add to this is that this is the first I've ever heard the term "key" or "keyhole". It must be a local or regional term I'm not familiar with.

In the past when I've been in similar situations I've communicated in clear, plain English that i would be waiting at the far end of the runway in the turn around area. Everyone has always seemed to understand what I meant, and there was no safety concern with doing so.
 
midlifeflyer said:
(Personally, at an airport like 7B2 or even F46, I would do my runup before ever back-taxiing to the "back taxi turnaround: :D. Why taxi all the way down a runway just to taxi all the way back if there's a problem?)
Click to expand...

I use that logic to not pull a plane out of the hangar before the preflight, but when I asked about applying that logic in this example I was told it was 'polite' to have the propwash at the ends. Could be another of my CFI's preferences that I retained.
 
yup.....and I stopped doing touch and goes a while ago. Now they're all full stop landings. :D
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
yup.....and I stopped doing touch and goes a while ago. Now they're all full stop landings. :D
Click to expand...

I always plane to do a touch and go. I must not be very good at them beause 98% of them end up being full stop.

Practice, practice, practice, I guess. ;)
 
Ravioli said:
I use that logic to not pull a plane out of the hangar before the preflight, but when I asked about applying that logic in this example I was told it was 'polite' to have the propwash at the ends. Could be another of my CFI's preferences that I retained.
Click to expand...
Yes, definitely. Always do a runup where the propwash won't blast others.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Similar things exist in a number of places. I've just never heard an official (or at least standard) aviation term for them. @Lachlan suggested there was one and I was trying to learn it.

(Personally, at an airport like 7B2 or even F46, I would do my runup before ever back-taxiing to the "back taxi turnaround: :D. Why taxi all the way down a runway just to taxi all the way back if there's a problem?)
Click to expand...

That's fine but the main purpose is when you can't make the midfield turn off on landing... other than of course as a turnaround any time you taxi to that end of the runway.. (it's not that wide a runway)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ravioli said:
I always plane to do a touch and go. I must not be very good at them beause 98% of them end up being full stop.

Practice, practice, practice, I guess. ;)
Click to expand...
Hmm. I plan to do a go-around and 98% are full stop. Touch & goes, stop and goes, low passes, are something else and I manage to do them as planned (although I have to admit a few planned touch & goes ended up being full stop or go-arounds :blush:)
 
gsengle said:
That's fine but the main purpose is when you can't make the midfield turn off on landing... other than of course as a turnaround any time you taxi to that end of the runway..
Click to expand...
I know. Notice I referred to it as the "back taxi turnaround."
 
James331 said:
Maybe I'm just having a moment, but "the key"?
Click to expand...

When I was a student pilot they were called "elephant ears". I am guessing that key or key hole is probably the same thing. Anyway, since the runway in question apparently does not have a parallel taxiway, I took that key or key hole meant the big turn around area at the end of the runway.
 
It's common sense. If you are on a runway and there is no nearby taxiway on one end of the runway and some small trainer type plane is landing and the only place you have to go, then GO TO THE FAR END OF THE RUNWAY may be one good option. If the runway is loong everything may be ok. No big deal. Two airplanes CAN be on the same runway and it isnt a crisis because there are 1000's of yards between them. It depends on runway length and aircraft landing distances.
 
It's called a keyhole because it's shape resembles the hole, not the key

fc9e046069a07fd09d6bb491b37b0279.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The only aviation related use of Keyhole that I was aware of before this thread was on VFR charts to represent airports with at least one instrument approach.
 
Ive always called it a turnaround. I was also able to figure out what keyhole meant, I'd never heard it before.
 
If I was the pilot on final and another plane had not cleared the runway yet, I'd be doing a go-around. But that is just me who is based at a Class D field and is used to not having any other planes on the runway.

It also wouldn't bother me at all if I landed and the guy on final decided he had enough room to land. I'd chalk it up to a guy who a different comfort level. Neither of us are wrong.
 
How long was the runway?

2000 feet, i'd be worried......6500 feet, I'd be ok.:D
 
flyingron said:
Original statement:
Revised story:

I'm not playing this game anymore. The issue here is neither safety nor the regs, but the poster wanting to vent about student pilots and revising his story when it doesn't work.
Click to expand...

I think you should look at an aerial view of the airport before accusing the OP of changing his story. It's quite apparent both of those "stories" can be true at the same time. It's your misunderstanding. This "turnaround" is not a run-up area. It's about 50 feet wide. That's it. It has no exits aside from the runway centerline. And at the end of a 3000 foot runway. A student pilot might be a bit low overhead after a T&G in, say, an overloaded 152. He should be able to full-stop in time, but a T&G takes MORE runway, not less, especially if the pilot isn't landing to ACS standards and does 1000 feet of student pilot floating.

The location there is rather vulnerable to other pilots screwing up. I'd be ticked as well, especially if I was on the centerline trying to backtaxi, or if I had my back to landing traffic.
 
I don't believe it. THere's no way he waited "in the key" for ten seconds for a T&G to clear if the guy had been bearing down on him while he was on the runway surface.
 
flyingron said:
Original statement:
Revised story:

I'm not playing this game anymore. The issue here is neither safety nor the regs, but the poster wanting to vent about student pilots and revising his story when it doesn't work.
Click to expand...
Beat you by five posts. :D
 
flyingron said:
I don't believe it. THere's no way he waited "in the key" for ten seconds for a T&G to clear if the guy had been bearing down on him while he was on the runway surface.
Click to expand...

Actually that sounds about right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top