total electrical failure this morning

jspilot

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I'm sharing my story of a total electrical failure so that others can learn from it. Thankfully we made it back fine but it was an eventful flight for sure.

This morning I was taking a buddy of mine who's been flying as a passenger in small planes for most of his life, to Block Island ( KBID). It is an unbelievable morning with calm winds and clear skies and we were both excited to do this as we had not flown together yet. We got to the airport and all went well with the pre-flight. We started up my favorite rental plane, a Cessna 172-P that I have over 100 uneventful hours in and taxied out for departure. We did our run-up and again all went well and looked normal. We took off into smooth as glass air, climbed out and proceeded east from the departure airport without any sign that this flight would be very different from the hundreds of flights I've made up to this point.

On the climb out I contacted New York approach for flight following. I immediately got it and so far this flight could not be going better. We leveled off at 5,500 and settled in for the quick trip over to Block Island. About 30 miles into the flight, my passenger noticed the radio stack lights started to blink. I said " hmmm..that's never happened to me before." I immediately pressed to push to talk button to see if I could contact New York Approach control to see if they heard me. Before I could even get out a few words, the lights went dark and only flickered a little bit. I looked at my buddy and he at me and I immediately made the call to return to the airport. We made the turn back to the airport and had about 20 minutes to go until touch down. About 2 minutes after the radios blinked they completely shut off. I was unable to reach New York Approach and they me. I squawked 7600 thinking we had some type of a radio issue. I was thinking that if the radios went I was not comfortable landing at Block Island without being able to communicate. I had not yet thought I was having an electrical system failure. I then glanced at my fuel gauges and they were now reading next to nothing. I knew this had to be wrong because I checked visually the fuel before the flight and we were topped off. This had me concerned but I now knew this was not a simple radio issue.

As we got closer to the departure airport( which is non towered) I made a plan in my mind and made sure to communicate my plan to my buddy figuring his experience could come in handy. He remained calm throughout and we both surmised that something electrical must be going on here. We knew the radios were out, we knew the fuel gauges were wrong( although the thought of maybe they were not wrong was always in the back of my mind and I figured the flaps would no work either.) I explained the plan to him. I said,

"listen here's the deal, we are going back into a crowded, non-towered airport. I'm going to need your help looking for traffic because obviously they won't be able to hear us and we them and they are going to be expecting radio calls"--- At this point I could not even tune in the frequency for the airport to make any calls. I then continued "Also, we are staying high until we get close to the field because I don't know if these gauges are correct or not and if we are loosing fuel or running out somehow we need to glide in. Also we are not flying a standard pattern we are just going straight for the runway"

Confident we had a plan that made sense we a got close to the airport and began our decent. Of course there were planes in the pattern and my buddy pointed a few out. I saw them and saw a few he did not. We descended nicely and the engine kept purring along( what a relief that is.) We made an approach to the field and now I needed to slow the plane down. Knowing if this was an electrical issue the flaps would likely not work I planned for a flap-less landing. We were descending steeply still at about 100 knots so I widened out a bit and of course a plane on left base comes right in front of us! Now I'm worried because we are about a half mile from him, descending and going much faster than he is. I'm committed to landing this plane because I need to get on the ground. I level off and pull up on the yoke to slow down and begin doing some s turns, we really only did shallow ones because I was worried about an accidental stall now too! The plane in front of us touches down and at what felt like a snails pace continues down the runway as we now are on about a 1/2 mile final. My options are now limited because I don't want to go around not knowing exactly what is going on and with fuel gauges reading 0. I try the flaps thinking maybe we can get them to slow us down-- no luck they are not working because of the electrical system failure. Lucky for me I was able to get the plane slowed down and was doing 80 knots on final. I was praying the plane on the ground would get to the turn off before much longer and by the grace of God he did. As we were about a 1/4 mile away he exited and I now only concerned myself with getting onto the ground. I told my buddy to expect a long float( also communicating this helped remind me to expect the same too.) We went over the numbers at around 70 floated a bit and touched down super smooth! My buddy gives me a huge pat on the shoulder, says " way to go!" I said, "wow am I glad we are down!" We got off the runway and passed the stop short bars and just took a second to collect ourselves. I was relieved to have made it through the most significant event I've experienced in the 340 or so hours I have many in this exact plane. On the taxi in, we both were somewhat giddy to have made it through the ordeal and commented that we now have an amazing story to tell. I apologized for putting him through this and he said, " well we can laugh about it now and honestly that's all that matters." He then said, " it was not your fault." I knew this but I felt good knowing my buddy knew this was beyond my control.

We taxied in to parking and I went into the office and asked about what I needed to do with regards to ATC. The office guy was so sorry this happened, he felt terrible that we went through this and called his boss. His boss said to give NY TRACON a call. I called them up and said, "hey I'm the pilot of xxxxxxx we were just talking to you and we had a total electrical failure and the radios went. I squawked 7600 and just wanted you to know we are back safely." He said, " ok great I'm very relieved you made it. We lost total contact and you were no longer even a blip out there and we never saw your 7600. We had several planes try to contact you, we tried to contact you several times and obviously you could not hear us. Thanks for letting us know and we are glad you are ok." I asked if I needed to fill out a form or anything and he said "nope no problem."

With the entire ordeal now resolved I began to start to think about what just happened. The mechanic came out and confirmed it was a total electrical failure. He asked if I had checked the circuit breaker( I had not-- should have) and their was a circuit popped out. I turned the master back on and the avionics switch back on and the radios came back to life. I then added the lights and then sure enough, the radios went dark again. From this experience I now know I should have shut off the lights and maybe that would have allowed me to save the radios. I asked the mechanic this and he said " maybe but honestly the radio probably would have gone soon too." I also never ran an emergency checklist for alternator failure. Maybe I should have but I honestly did not know if that was it until the flaps did not work. I really just focused on getting back to the airport throughout this entire experience.

I'm glad to be able to share this story with you all. I know an electrical failure is not a terrible thing to happen but anything that goes wrong on a airplane creates an issue. I learned some things from this and I'm proud of myself for staying calm, properly executing a plan and for the successful outcome. Thanks for reading this long post and I hope some people get something useful out of it!
 
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Good job overall...now to learn from it. ;)

What airplane were you flying, and what would be an initial indication of an alternator failure? Knowing exactly what the problem was would have made you more comfortable with the rest of the situation....possibly alleviating your "need to get on the ground" and your reluctance to go around.
 
You stayed calm and flew the plane, good job. A little short on trouble shooting the cause, but something you will not forget to do in the future.

I once had all kinds of smoke start rolling out from under the dash. I secured the electrical system and the smoke went away. Returned to home base, class D without radios. Called tower after landing, everything was good. I now carry a handheld radio on every flight....:)
 
Good job overall...now to learn from it. ;)

What airplane were you flying, and what would be an initial indication of an alternator failure? Knowing exactly what the problem was would have made you more comfortable with the rest of the situation....possibly alleviating your "need to get on the ground" and your reluctance to go around.

Hey thanks for the kind words! yes I should have added this is in a 172. EDIT-- I've now added that into the story in the OP.
 
Things to learn:
Always troubleshoot, plane flies just fine w/o any electrical power. There's no need to hurry up and try to get on the ground asap. Fuel gauges not working is a normal symptom with an electrical fault.
Always fly a standard pattern, unless you are on fire.
And you can land on a runway even when the previous plane hasn't vacated yet, no problem at all, we do this all the time here. There's nothing in the regs that prohibits that.

But most importantly, good job on not panicking and flying the plane first.
 
Hey yes I should have added this is in a 172. EDIT-- I've now added that into the story in the OP.
Ok...so the 172 should have a Low Voltage light of some sort, as well as an ammeter or charging gauge? those would tell you exactly what you've got.
 
Not a criticism by any means - in fact congratulations for thinking through a plan that worked well - but next time cycle the master switch off and on as part of your troubleshooting. On some planes this will reset a breaker and if that works, keep on trucking! By the way, do this only once... if you lose power a second time, something is wrong and you need to be on the ground to check/repair it.

Good job.

-Skip
 
Ok...so the 172 should have a Low Voltage light of some sort, as well as an ammeter or charging gauge? those would tell you exactly what you've got.

Couple of things. The low voltage light did not display and the ammeter did not show a discharge. This was part of why I was confused by what was actually happening.
 
Not a criticism by any means - in fact congratulations for thinking through a plan that worked well - but next time cycle the master switch off and on as part of your troubleshooting. On some planes this will reset a breaker and if that works, keep on trucking! By the way, do this only once... if you lose power a second time, something is wrong and you need to be on the ground to check/repair it.

Good job.

-Skip

Yes Skip the Mechanic suggested I try this next time. He explained that it could reset the switch. Ironically in this situation I don't think it would have worked because after we shut the plane down and messed around on the ground after the Master was turned on and off the situation repeated itself exactly the same way. That is a good tip that you shared though and one that I learned afterwards!
 
Things to learn:
Always troubleshoot, plane flies just fine w/o any electrical power. There's no need to hurry up and try to get on the ground asap. Fuel gauges not working is a normal symptom with an electrical fault.
Always fly a standard pattern, unless you are on fire.
And you can land on a runway even when the previous plane hasn't vacated yet, no problem at all, we do this all the time here. There's nothing in the regs that prohibits that.

But most importantly, good job on not panicking and flying the plane first.

Thanks! Yeah I was landing on that runway even if he did not vacate but my worry was flying into the back of him since I was expecting to float a long time. I honestly did feel a huge urgency to get it on the ground which I think was smart considering Id rather be on the ground than in the air. But yes you are right I suspected the fuel gauges were a symptom of the electrical issue but in the situation in the moment I did not want to take the chance that they were actually right rather than wrong! I've read stories of pilots flying with empty fuel gauges believing the gauge was wrong only to find out the gauge was right. In this case though I had good reason to think I had fuel.
 
Couple of things. The low voltage light did not display and the ammeter did not show a discharge. This was part of why I was confused by what was actually happening.
Sounds like there are some other issues with this airplane...use caution!
 
Glad you made it safely down. You'll be an even better pilot for the experience.
 
Very well. I was up years ago in the back of an Arrow with my flight instructor giving an IPC to the Arrow's owner (Buzz's favorite line was "Hop in the back, you'll learn something.). The alternator crumped and they didn't notice it until they dropped the gear on one approach. We negotiated a NORDO approach back in to IAD which was sort of neat (well it was like 2AM at this point).
 
I had the same thing years ago in a 172, over Lake Superior; daytime, alone in a 172 with "zero fuel"! (no 'low voltage' light in that airplane, you just had to watch the ammeter for a discharge)
I also had the lights go out in a 182 at night about 15 years ago after I left Roswell NM. A bit disconcerting to navigate over one of the darkest places I know of, with 8500' peaks along the route. Thankfully it was very good weather.
 
I'm sharing my story of a total electrical failure so that others can learn from it. Thankfully we made it back fine but it was an eventful flight for sure.

This morning I was taking a buddy of mine who's been flying as a passenger in small planes for most of his life, to Block Island ( KBID). It is an unbelievable morning with calm winds and clear skies and we were both excited to do this as we had not flown together yet. We got to the airport and all went well with the pre-flight. We started up my favorite rental plane, a Cessna 172-P that I have over 100 uneventful hours in and taxied out for departure. We did our run-up and again all went well and looked normal. We took off into smooth as glass air, climbed out and proceeded east from the departure airport without any sign that this flight would be very different from the hundreds of flights I've made up to this point.

On the climb out I contacted New York approach for flight following. I immediately got it and so far this flight could not be going better. We leveled off at 5,500 and settled in for the quick trip over to Block Island. About 30 miles into the flight, my passenger noticed the radio stack lights started to blink. I said " hmmm..that's never happened to me before." I immediately pressed to push to talk button to see if I could contact New York Approach control to see if they heard me. Before I could even get out a few words, the lights went dark and only flickered a little bit. I looked at my buddy and he at me and I immediately made the call to return to the airport. We made the turn back to the airport and had about 20 minutes to go until touch down. About 2 minutes after the radios blinked they completely shut off. I was unable to reach New York Approach and they me. I squawked 7600 thinking we had some type of a radio issue. I was thinking that if the radios went I was not comfortable landing at Block Island without being able to communicate. I had not yet thought I was having an electrical system failure. I then glanced at my fuel gauges and they were now reading next to nothing. I knew this had to be wrong because I checked visually the fuel before the flight and we were topped off. This had me concerned but I now knew this was not a simple radio issue.

As we got closer to the departure airport( which is non towered) I made a plan in my mind and made sure to communicate my plan to my buddy figuring his experience could come in handy. He remained calm throughout and we both surmised that something electrical must be going on here. We knew the radios were out, we knew the fuel gauges were wrong( although the thought of maybe they were not wrong was always in the back of my mind and I figured the flaps would no work either.) I explained the plan to him. I said,

"listen here's the deal, we are going back into a crowded, non-towered airport. I'm going to need your help looking for traffic because obviously they won't be able to hear us and we them and they are going to be expecting radio calls"--- At this point I could not even tune in the frequency for the airport to make any calls. I then continued "Also, we are staying high until we get close to the field because I don't know if these gauges are correct or not and if we are loosing fuel or running out somehow we need to glide in. Also we are not flying a standard pattern we are just going straight for the runway"

Confident we had a plan that made sense we a got close to the airport and began our decent. Of course there were planes in the pattern and my buddy pointed a few out. I saw them and saw a few he did not. We descended nicely and the engine kept purring along( what a relief that is.) We made an approach to the field and now I needed to slow the plane down. Knowing if this was an electrical issue the flaps would likely not work I planned for a flap-less landing. We were descending steeply still at about 100 knots so I widened out a bit and of course a plane on left base comes right in front of us! Now I'm worried because we are about a half mile from him, descending and going much faster than he is. I'm committed to landing this plane because I need to get on the ground. I level off and pull up on the yoke to slow down and begin doing some s turns, we really only did shallow ones because I was worried about an accidental stall now too! The plane in front of us touches down and at what felt like a snails pace continues down the runway as we now are on about a 1/2 mile final. My options are now limited because I don't want to go around not knowing exactly what is going on and with fuel gauges reading 0. I try the flaps thinking maybe we can get them to slow us down-- no luck they are not working because of the electrical system failure. Lucky for me I was able to get the plane slowed down and was doing 80 knots on final. I was praying the plane on the ground would get to the turn off before much longer and by the grace of God he did. As we were about a 1/4 mile away he exited and I now only concerned myself with getting onto the ground. I told my buddy to expect a long float( also communicating this helped remind me to expect the same too.) We went over the numbers at around 70 floated a bit and touched down super smooth! My buddy gives me a huge pat on the shoulder, says " way to go!" I said, "wow am I glad we are down!" We got off the runway and passed the stop short bars and just took a second to collect ourselves. I was relieved to have made it through the most significant event I've experienced in the 340 or so hours I have many in this exact plane. On the taxi in, we both were somewhat giddy to have made it through the ordeal and commented that we now have an amazing story to tell. I apologized for putting him through this and he said, " well we can laugh about it now and honestly that's all that matters." He then said, " it was not your fault." I knew this but I felt good knowing my buddy knew this was beyond my control.

We taxied in to parking and I went into the office and asked about what I needed to do with regards to ATC. The office guy was so sorry this happened, he felt terrible that we went through this and called his boss. His boss said to give NY TRACON a call. I called them up and said, "hey I'm the pilot of xxxxxxx we were just talking to you and we had a total electrical failure and the radios went. I squawked 7600 and just wanted you to know we are back safely." He said, " ok great I'm very relieved you made it. We lost total contact and you were no longer even a blip out there and we never saw your 7600. We had several planes try to contact you, we tried to contact you several times and obviously you could not hear us. Thanks for letting us know and we are glad you are ok." I asked if I needed to fill out a form or anything and he said "nope no problem."

With the entire ordeal now resolved I began to start to think about what just happened. The mechanic came out and confirmed it was a total electrical failure. He asked if I had checked the circuit breaker( I had not-- should have) and their was a circuit popped out. I turned the master back on and the avionics switch back on and the radios came back to life. I then added the lights and then sure enough, the radios went dark again. From this experience I now know I should have shut off the lights and maybe that would have allowed me to save the radios. I asked the mechanic this and he said " maybe but honestly the radio probably would have gone soon too." I also never ran an emergency checklist for alternator failure. Maybe I should have but I honestly did not know if that was it until the flaps did not work. I really just focused on getting back to the airport throughout this entire experience.

I'm glad to be able to share this story with you all. I know an electrical failure is not a terrible thing to happen but anything that goes wrong on a airplane creates an issue. I learned some things from this and I'm proud of myself for staying calm, properly executing a plan and for the successful outcome. Thanks for reading this long post and I hope some people get something useful out of it!
Good job keepin your cool and using the resources you had including your buddy in the right seat. Here's what crossed my mind as you were describing your pattern entry, getting down, slowing down and looking for traffic. Slips. They can get you down, slow you down, give better forward visibility because the cowl isn't hiding the sky directly in front of your flight path. I do them routinely during descents solely for the purpose of looking for traffic
 
I am somewhat at a loss as to when you realized that your radios failed along with your fuel gauges and that you most likely had electrical issues that you did not cycle the master, did not look for popped circuit breakers, did not try to loadshed or any other thing that could possibly have made things better but instead squawked 7600 on the transponder which common sense would say would be as dead as the other radios. Also slowing a 172 down even without flaps should not have been as difficult as you make it sound.

Didn't your CFI cover emergency procedures with you? Mine did.

Didn't your CFI have you practice no flap landings during training? Mine did.

Didn't the DPE test you on this. Mine did.

Don't you practice them even today? I do.

I hate to be so harsh as I am a pretty low time pilot myself but in my humble opinion, you failed to do the basics.

I will however give you credit for involving your passenger in the search for traffic and for calling ATC afterwards to let them know you were safe. Those were two good things that you did.

Now do one more good thing. Go here.
 
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Sounds like there are some other issues with this airplane...use caution!
The ammeters on most airplanes are so insensitive you can't even notice discharge.

If it's total power failure, a low voltage light might not register as there's no power to light it.
 
The ammeters on most airplanes are so insensitive you can't even notice discharge.
like "fuel gauges are useless"? I've never met a properly-maintained airplane where the discharge indicator was useless...you just have to look at it often enough to know what it's supposed to look like.
If it's total power failure, a low voltage light might not register as there's no power to light it.
That would indicate a bad battery as well, and he didn't mention anything about starting issues.
 
like "fuel gauges are useless"? I've never met a properly-maintained airplane where the discharge indicator was useless...you just have to look at it often enough to know what it's supposed to look like.

That would indicate a bad battery as well, and he didn't mention anything about starting issues.
Neither the ammmeter nor the low voltage light is going to have an indication when the main breaker has opened...
 
Pretty classic alternator failure scenario. It should have been covered in your primary training and at least simulated. Radios need a minimum voltage to function and the flickering was a signal you had less than 12 volts on the buss. You're on battery power only and that battery is draining down. Most emergency checklists for this allow you to cycle the alternator switch (or master switch if they're combined) ONCE. Of course after checking for popped breakers (for which a reset can also be tried ONCE). If alternator does not come back on line then you start shedding load. I think too you were a little quick in heading back to home. If it ain't on fire, there's normally some time for trouble shooting. Give it a try. Take a deep breath. Make a plan. DO THE POH CHECKLIST. You chose to go back to your home airport. For this emergency the FAR's say to land at the nearest suitable airport. If something had happened to get the FAA's (not ATC's) attention, could you defend that you went to the nearest suitable airport?
For sure every pilot should be comfortable with doing a no flap landing. I make them a part of a flight review. So that means you have to be comfortable with forward slips too.
You got back safe and sound, and I totally agree your pattern work and call to ATC were good work. Thank you for posting the whole story. It gives us all a good situation to think through.
 
Suit yourself.
Oh...the one for the big switch that Frankenstein Thea to jolt his monster to life. :rolleyes:

Never seen a breaker or fuse in an airplane labeled "main". If you're gonna make stuff up, you need to explain it.
 
I am somewhat at a loss as to when you realized that your radios failed along with your fuel gauges and that you most likely had electrical issues that you did not cycle the master, did not look for popped circuit breakers, did not try to loadshed or any other thing that could possibly have made things better but instead squawked 7600 on the transponder which common sense would say would be as dead as the other radios. Also slowing a 172 down even without flaps should not have been as difficult as you make it sound.

Didn't your CFI cover emergency procedures with you? Mine did.

Didn't your CFI have you practice no flap landings during training? Mine did.

Didn't the DPE test you on this. Mine did.

Don't you practice them even today? I do.

I hate to be so harsh as I am a pretty low time pilot myself but in my humble opinion, you failed to do the basics.

I will however give you credit for involving your passenger in the search for traffic and for calling ATC afterwards to let them know you were safe. Those were two good things that you did.

Now do one more good thing. Go here.

I was waiting for this type of post. Can always count on no it alls chiming in.

My CFI covered all this with me and that's what said to me that it was an electrical failure. He also taught me to squawk 7600 whenever the radios go out. That's what I did!

Slowing the plane down was not a problem as evidence by the fact that we touched down and got off the runway in about 1/4 of the usable space!

I do not remember getting taught about cycling the master hence why I did not do that!

As explained in my post, I was not totally confident what I was dealing with until the flaps would not extend and at that point I knew it was electrical failure. Would it have made sense to load shed on a 1/2 mile final with a plane on the runway in front of me, and me being terrified I was going to get hit by another plane in the pattern, maybe but I just flew the plane down.

You said you are a low time guy so I'll assume maybe you have not yet delt with a situation in which you are concerned about lots of things at once. My thought process was get the plane on the ground safely and trouble shoot at the tie downs! I don't blame myself for that!

Being 90% sure it's an electrical failure as I was still leaves that 10% that it is not. I'm not, nor will not, put my life or my passengers life in my ability to trouble shoot something while airborn. Fixes should occur on the ground not in the air in my opinion and I'm fine with how I handled this.

I really don't want this thread to turn into a "I know better than you" type thread. So far it has not and I only shared so that we can all share experiences with each other with a similar event so we can all learn from it!
 
Oh...the one for the big switch that Frankenstein Thea to jolt his monster to life. :rolleyes:

Never seen a breaker or fuse in an airplane labeled "main". If you're gonna make stuff up, you need to explain it.
As I said, suit yourself. If you need labels I'm sure you can find a label maker somewhere. Read the OP's posts and understand that a breaker had opened. If that bothers you then so sorry.
 
I do not remember getting taught about cycling the master hence why I did not do that!
If there's one thing I hope you learn from this, it's that it isn't the instructor's job to teach you everything there is to know. This information is in the AFM/POH/whatever, and it's your responsibility as PIC to be familiar with it.
 
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I was waiting for this type of post. Can always count on no it alls chiming in.

My CFI covered all this with me and that's what said to me that it was an electrical failure. He also taught me to squawk 7600 whenever the radios go out. That's what I did!

Slowing the plane down was not a problem as evidence by the fact that we touched down and got off the runway in about 1/4 of the usable space!

I do not remember getting taught about cycling the master hence why I did not do that!

As explained in my post, I was not totally confident what I was dealing with until the flaps would not extend and at that point I knew it was electrical failure. Would it have made sense to load shed on a 1/2 mile final with a plane on the runway in front of me, and me being terrified I was going to get hit by another plane in the pattern, maybe but I just flew the plane down.

You said you are a low time guy so I'll assume maybe you have not yet delt with a situation in which you are concerned about lots of things at once. My thought process was get the plane on the ground safely and trouble shoot at the tie downs! I don't blame myself for that!

Being 90% sure it's an electrical failure as I was still leaves that 10% that it is not. I'm not, nor will not, put my life or my passengers life in my ability to trouble shoot something while airborn. Fixes should occur on the ground not in the air in my opinion and I'm fine with how I handled this.

I really don't want this thread to turn into a "I know better than you" type thread. So far it has not and I only shared so that we can all share experiences with each other with a similar event so we can all learn from it!
You must be new around here:)
 
As I said, suit yourself. If you need labels I'm sure you can find a label maker somewhere. Read the OP's posts and understand that a breaker had opened. If that bothers you then so sorry.
I did read the OP...he didn't specify which breaker, but it sounded like either an alternator or field breaker, neither of which would cause failure of a low voltage light, ammeter, or charging indicator.
 
Nice job...having a handheld radio is an awesome thing to have I always have mine with me in case this happens.
 
I did read the OP...he didn't specify which breaker, but it sounded like either an alternator or field breaker, neither of which would cause failure of a low voltage light, ammeter, or charging indicator.
There was no electrical power which does cause failure of the low voltage light, ammeter, and "charging indicator"

By the way, I've never seen a gauge labeled "charging indicator." Based on your previous post that should bother you.
 
There was no electrical power which does cause failure of the low voltage light, ammeter, and "charging indicator"

By the way, I've never seen a gauge labeled "charging indicator." Based on your previous post that should bother you.
Agreed...the low voltage light will "fail" at some point well after the alternator fails because the battery is no longer being charged. But it's designed to illuminate in the event of an alternator failure. If it didn't illuminate at all, there are other issues with the airplane that should be addressed.

Also true on "charging". I was referring to an ammeter that has both "+" and "-" sides. It's tied to the battery side of the system so it more directly shows amperage in or out of the battery rather than alternator output.

So...any explanation of the "main breaker" yet?
 
If there's one thing I hope you learn from this, it's that it isn't the instructor's job to teach you everything there is to know. This information is not in the AFM/POH/whatever, and it's your responsibility as PIC to be familiar with it.

Yes this is a great point and exactly why I posted the story! I knew there were things I could learn from this/improve on next time and I learned many! I posted here so there's a space for others to learn too!

To clarify for the other discussion about which breaker it was that popped it was the AlT FIELD breaker I believe.
 
Yes this is a great point and exactly why I posted the story! I knew there were things I could learn from this/improve on next time and I learned many! I posted here so there's a space for others to learn too!

To clarify for the other discussion about which breaker it was that popped it was the AlT FIELD breaker I believe.
Sorry...I fat-fingered my keyboard and didn't check autocorrect. :(

This stuff IS in your AFM/POH/whatever.
 
Nice job getting back safely.

Here's my unsolicited $0.02.

Just to reiterate a few good points already brought up. The plane will fly perfectly fine with a total electrical failure. I used to shut the master off on all students when I instructed so they knew it wasn't a panic situation when VMC and make them fly back to the airport and land (uncontrolled) once. As soon as you turned back to the airport, I think you should have grabbed the POH and gone to the electrical failure section and ran the checklist. This probably would have allowed you to shed the load and have enough juice for radio calls back in the airport environment. I'd not have worried or bothered with the flaps as a 172 is an easy plane to slip and land no flap. Just fly a normal pattern and slip for the same vertical angle as a full flap landing. Last point I want to bring up is at a towered airport ATC will land you on the same runway as another light single 3000 feet behind. I would not ever have an issue landing at an uncontrolled airport with the same spacing. The FAR's do not prohibit this as it is perfectly safe.

Again, nice job using your non-flying passenger and getting back on the ground.
 
please dont take this the wrong way is it was not meant to be in an adverse way, just something to think about an learn from. first, you handled the problem to the best of your ability and the outcome was good. however, I think it shows that you have a limited understanding of the systems of your aircraft. this is a widespread problem because a lot of CFI's do not have a good understanding of aircraft systems. especially electrical systems. just from the description, the alternator went offline at some point and you did not notice for some reason. you flew on battery power only until the voltage dropped below cut off level for each electrical device and they dropped offline. the radios being the one that let you know that the electrical system was not operating properly.

take this as learning experience and dig deeper into the systems and what they will tell you when something is not right.

a couple of questions for the group as a whole:
1: what does the ammeter tell you and what should you see?
2: does cessna have a load meter setup or a current flow setup?
3: what about piper?
4: what is the difference, and what does each tell you?
5: does any other device in the panel tell you electrical condition that you would not expect to get info from?

bob
 
I was waiting for this type of post. Can always count on no it alls chiming in.

My CFI covered all this with me and that's what said to me that it was an electrical failure. He also taught me to squawk 7600 whenever the radios go out. That's what I did!

Slowing the plane down was not a problem as evidence by the fact that we touched down and got off the runway in about 1/4 of the usable space!

I do not remember getting taught about cycling the master hence why I did not do that!

As explained in my post, I was not totally confident what I was dealing with until the flaps would not extend and at that point I knew it was electrical failure. Would it have made sense to load shed on a 1/2 mile final with a plane on the runway in front of me, and me being terrified I was going to get hit by another plane in the pattern, maybe but I just flew the plane down.

You said you are a low time guy so I'll assume maybe you have not yet delt with a situation in which you are concerned about lots of things at once. My thought process was get the plane on the ground safely and trouble shoot at the tie downs! I don't blame myself for that!

Being 90% sure it's an electrical failure as I was still leaves that 10% that it is not. I'm not, nor will not, put my life or my passengers life in my ability to trouble shoot something while airborn. Fixes should occur on the ground not in the air in my opinion and I'm fine with how I handled this.

I really don't want this thread to turn into a "I know better than you" type thread. So far it has not and I only shared so that we can all share experiences with each other with a similar event so we can all learn from it!
Aviate. Navigate Communicate.

Sounds like you did everything in the right order. Hindsight is always 20/20. Very few of us know how we'll react in an emergency or any event regardless how often we practice the procedures.
 
I agree with most feedback here - great job dealing with an unusual situation and good CRM. Yes working the POH checklist might have made things better, and here I'd like to raise one point:

"I looked at my buddy and he at me"

This is the startle response - shock at the surprise can hijack our brains. Training will mitigate this, as will taking a breath and working the situation. I believe we don't do enough emergency training, in a sim or whatever, which will help us think clearly in an emergency.

More on the startle response:
https://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing/2017/media/se_topic_17_06.pdf

And more on slowing things down:
 
I was waiting for this type of post. Can always count on no it alls chiming in.

My CFI covered all this with me and that's what said to me that it was an electrical failure. He also taught me to squawk 7600 whenever the radios go out. That's what I did!

Slowing the plane down was not a problem as evidence by the fact that we touched down and got off the runway in about 1/4 of the usable space!

I do not remember getting taught about cycling the master hence why I did not do that!

As explained in my post, I was not totally confident what I was dealing with until the flaps would not extend and at that point I knew it was electrical failure. Would it have made sense to load shed on a 1/2 mile final with a plane on the runway in front of me, and me being terrified I was going to get hit by another plane in the pattern, maybe but I just flew the plane down.

You said you are a low time guy so I'll assume maybe you have not yet delt with a situation in which you are concerned about lots of things at once. My thought process was get the plane on the ground safely and trouble shoot at the tie downs! I don't blame myself for that!

Being 90% sure it's an electrical failure as I was still leaves that 10% that it is not. I'm not, nor will not, put my life or my passengers life in my ability to trouble shoot something while airborn. Fixes should occur on the ground not in the air in my opinion and I'm fine with how I handled this.

I really don't want this thread to turn into a "I know better than you" type thread. So far it has not and I only shared so that we can all share experiences with each other with a similar event so we can all learn from it!

I am far from being a "no it all", heck I'm far from being a know it all as well.

In your OP, you wrote you were about 30 miles into the flight when it happened and then in this post you said you were not confident that it was an electrical failure until you were on a 1/2 mile final and the flaps wouldn't come down. But you also wrote that your CFI had covered this with you and that's why you thought it was an electrical failure. Odd that it took flying 29.5 miles and having the flaps not work for you to realize what your CFI taught you. I'd think all of the avionics dying and the fuel gauges going to zero would have been enough.

As to whether or not I have dealt with such a situation, the answer is that I have. The airport that I fly out of is in the CLT Class B Mode C Veil though it is under the 4000' shelf. One day while I was flying around outside the Bravo, I had a failure similar to yours sans the popped breaker. The first thing I noticed was the radio stack fading and the transponder was giving me an error. I checked the ammeter and sure enough it showed a discharge. I checked the CB panel and nothing was popped. So I shut off the master, turned off all the avionics and all the lights. I normally fly with the airplane lit up pretty well including the landing light due to the amount of traffic in the area. Then I turned the master back on, turned on one radio and the transponder. They both came up with no issues. I left everything else off. Now, I needed to get back to my airport and I wanted to remain legal (i.e. operable transponder) so I turned towards home before the issue could repeat. As I flew back, I pulled out and turned on my handheld radio as a precaution. Landed without further issues.

Granted, our situations were not identical but I do believe that I would have quickly recognized what you experienced for what it was (an electrical failure) and would have noticed the popped CB. I'm not saying that the actions I would have taken in your situation would have resulted in electrical power being restored and available all the way back to the airport, but I do believe I would have given it a better chance. You gave it zero chance.

But go ahead and bask in all of the feel good "you did good" posts. I'm sure the useless platitudes make you feel better than a more instructional "what you did wrong" post does.

But let me repeat something I wrote in my first reply to leave you with a warm and fuzzy feeling as I do not want to ruin your day. Afterall, we all deserve a trophy for participating.

So, good job involving your pax and calling ATC after you landed.

Have a nice day.
 
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