total electrical failure this morning

jspilot said:
...I'm not, nor will not, put my life or my passengers life in my ability to trouble shoot something while airborne. Fixes should occur on the ground not in the air in my opinion and I'm fine with how I handled this...
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And this is what concerns me as a flight instructor and basically as a pilot.

To start off with your previous problem, you will live to fly another day and no one got hurt. Fine and dandy. Live and learn. But....

Lets pretend something else happened, say, for some unknown bizarre unexplainable reason one tank ran out of gas. Will you ride it down to the ground and then try to figure out what happened or will you go through the hopefully ingrained memory items for the engine loss of power.? Which the first Item is change fuel tanks.

The emergency checklist will have you trouble shoot to try to remedy a problem while in the air. I don't remember the electrical/alternator failure checklist, too many years since I have been in a 172, but I would bet it is something similar to what Skydog58 stated.

Multi tasking is part of flying.
 
Thanks for sharing. U stayed calm and lived to tell the story, that's all that matters.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
Zeldman said:
And this is what concerns me as a flight instructor and basically as a pilot.

To start off with your previous problem, you will live to fly another day and no one got hurt. Fine and dandy. Live and learn. But....

Lets pretend something else happened, say, for some unknown bizarre unexplainable reason one tank ran out of gas. Will you ride it down to the ground and then try to figure out what happened or will you go through the hopefully ingrained memory items for the engine loss of power.? Which the first Item is change fuel tanks.

The emergency checklist will have you trouble shoot to try to remedy a problem while in the air. I don't remember the electrical/alternator failure checklist, too many years since I have been in a 172, but I would bet it is something similar to what Skydog58 stated.

Multi tasking is part of flying.
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This is a great point. To be honest, I do wish I would have used the checklist and I may have fixed it( or remedied it enough to regain the radios.)

That being said, as a CFI yourself, and anyone else who wants to contribute, one thing this revealed in me was when this went wrong I immediately became focused on getting the airplane back to the airport. I had a working engine and knew if I continued to fly without altering things the engine should keep working. I was concerned that messing with things may exacerbate the situation by compounding things even more. Given the engine was still putting along, I knew I was safe and therefore felt like keeping things as is was better than trying to fix a problem that I could accidentally make worse. I guess I made the choice to just concentrate on flying the plane and not become involved in fixing the problem. I guess that may not be the classic CFI taught response( meaning we train for these issues and are always told to run the checklist.) I am not sure given my situation today, if it made much sense to run the checklist or if we should be taught to fly towards an airport, land and have a mechanic fix things! I wonder if others have a thought on that.

Now if the engine crapped out- I'd be running the memory items to attempt a restart. At that point you have to try everything but with a fully working engine I made the calculated choice to leave things alone and just get back to the airfield.

Skydog, I'm glad you are participating in the thread. I defend the choices I made and would do the same thing again( return to the airport.) I now know that there are a few things I could try but I still would return to the airport but I'd also try the things I've sinced learned. I don't believe I'm basking in the "atta boys." I never posted my original story for that. I posted it to learn and for others to learn from it. Please show respect for that as if we can't share experiences because someone will attempt to take us down for not doing everything perfectly than this site can not be a place to share stories and that is a tremendous loss!
 
jspilot said:
That being said, as a CFI yourself, and anyone else who wants to contribute, one thing this revealed in me was when this went wrong I immediately became focused on getting the airplane back to the airport. I had a working engine and knew if I continued to fly without altering things the engine should keep working. I was concerned that messing with things may exacerbate the situation by compounding things even more. Given the engine was still putting along, I knew I was safe and therefore felt like keeping things as is was better than trying to fix a problem that I could accidentally make worse.
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I would use the word "fixated" rather than "focused" based on your original post.

I'd also venture that this fixation is what didn't allow you to even determine what the problem was until short final.

Yes, let the mechanic fix the airplane, but having a good understanding of the airplane and its checklists would allow you to do enough troubleshooting that you're not worried about running out of fuel or such things.
 
jspilot said:
, one thing this revealed in me was when this went wrong I immediately became focused on getting the airplane back to the airport
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Excellent..!!! I am glad to see you recognize this part..!!
 
MauleSkinner said:
I would use the word "fixated" rather than "focused" based on your original post.

I'd also venture that this fixation is what didn't allow you to even determine what the problem was until short final.

Yes, let the mechanic fix the airplane, but having a good understanding of the airplane and its checklists would allow you to do enough troubleshooting that you're not worried about running out of fuel or such things.
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Well just to be fully honest, I said to my buddy over and over that we had an electrical issue and I was fully aware that the engine would continue to work even if the electrical system crapped out. However, I still was not 100% certain that something more serious was not going on. That's the part that still has me wrestling with myself. Maybe I should have known with 100% certainty it was an electrical failure but can and or should we, ever actually know what is causing the issue until the cowling comes off and we look at the problem? I'm not sure and that's the reason why I just wanted to land and that's why I wonder if training for any situation like this should include, immediately return to the airport and leave the fixing to the mechanics! I guess trying to fix the issue while airborn may work if you have 2 qualified pilots flying, one who will just fly like I did and the other run the checklist. It just seemed like an awful lot to worry about and I don't think my focus, "fixation" in your words was a bad thing as it got us back safely. I could see how a fixation on fixing a problem while airborn could lead to much worse outcomes. I get I could have done more and I'm glad I now know much more after this experience!
 
jspilot said:
Well just to be fully honest, I said to my buddy over and over that we had an electrical issue and I was fully aware that the engine would continue to work even if the electrical system crapped out. However, I still was not 100% certain that something more serious was not going on. That's the part that still has me wrestling with myself. Maybe I should have known with 100% certainty it was an electrical failure but can and or should we, ever actually know what is causing the issue until the cowling comes off and we look at the problem? I'm not sure and that's the reason why I just wanted to land and that's why I wonder if training for any situation like this should include, immediately return to the airport and leave the fixing to the mechanics! I guess trying to fix the issue while airborn may work if you have 2 qualified pilots flying, one who will just fly like I did and the other run the checklist. It just seemed like an awful lot to worry about and I don't think my focus, "fixation" in your words was a bad thing as it got us back safely. I could see how a fixation on fixing a problem while airborn could lead to much worse outcomes. I get I could have done more and I'm glad I now know much more after this experience!
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By your own account of the story you were indeed fixated on landing, to the point where you even stated that you were landing on that runway even if it created a runway incursion! Classic case of fixation. Learn from this. It was probably the only real danger in the entire flight, and it was your decision that put you there. Stay safe out there.
 
Lachlan said:
By your own account of the story you were indeed fixated on landing, to the point where you even stated that you were landing on that runway even if it created a runway incursion! Classic case of fixation. Learn from this. It was probably the only real danger in the entire flight, and it was your decision that put you there. Stay safe out there.
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One thing I am learning from this has nothing to do with the flying... It has a lot to do with the guys on here who are super pilots!

I was landing to prevent any possibility of something else going wrong. I planned for, and executed an approach to give myself enough space to avoid the plane in front of me. That's good airmanship and again I stand behind any decision I made. I'll reference the fact that I'm here posting about this now and not a crater in the ground that I made many more good decisions than bad ones!

All you having fun at my expense are truly revealing your true colors. I'll leave the judgement of who's in this for the benefit of the group and who's in this to just blow their already extremely heightened egos up even further to each individual. To those just in this to bash me or any typos I may make, please go find another thread to do that junk in. It's just serving to tear apart what was and should remain a good thread and is not adding anything to the conversation. I know I don't own the thread but some of you guys really do tear apart any good conversation with your way of interacting. I'd hope we can keep this on track and I really appreciate all those trying to do that.
 
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OP did just fine. Safely got his passenger back down to terra firms with no bent metal or swapped paint. I think heading back to the airport pronto was the right move. He had an electrical failure. Nothing says it couldn't have become an electrical fire.

Now I get to brag on my airplane for a minute. Johnson bar gear and hydraulic flaps. Pilots of vintage Mooneys don't sweat electrical failure much.

Those of you giving this guy a hard time should lay off hard. Easy to know what do do in your mother' basement eating mayo out the jar. Different deal to stuff go sideways with a hand full of airplane.
 
Zeldman said:
And this is what concerns me as a flight instructor and basically as a pilot.

To start off with your previous problem, you will live to fly another day and no one got hurt. Fine and dandy. Live and learn. But....

Lets pretend something else happened, say, for some unknown bizarre unexplainable reason one tank ran out of gas. Will you ride it down to the ground and then try to figure out what happened or will you go through the hopefully ingrained memory items for the engine loss of power.? Which the first Item is change fuel tanks.

The emergency checklist will have you trouble shoot to try to remedy a problem while in the air. I don't remember the electrical/alternator failure checklist, too many years since I have been in a 172, but I would bet it is something similar to what Skydog58 stated.

Multi tasking is part of flying.
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Absolutely correct.
Is he saying all emergencies or abnormal procedures are to be only dealt with on the ground..???
If you're in fire are you going to try to fly to the closest airport then deal with it?

Rude awakening ahead.
 
What we've learned:

1. Never post a story/emergency/incident/accident
2. You suck as a pilot
3. You could have/should have/would have done...
4. Everyone is an expert

Did I miss anything?:)

You got the plane down safely, nobody died, and you didn't bend metal. Sounds like you did fine. I'm second guessing posting what happened to me today!
 
There's an adage I'm fond of..."Happy are they in their wisdom who have learned at another's expense." :biggrin: So, thanks for sharing your experience so we can learn from it too!

I'm glad in the end it all turned out well for you and your pax. Tough crowd here (Jezuz), but fortunately you now have an experience you can learn from...and that will ultimately make you a better pilot. And that's not such a bad thing.
 
One thing I did was install an OAT/Volt Meter. My Beech only had an ammeter. I feel I have a better picture of how the electrical system is operating. 12.2 to 12.7 volt is normal for start voltage and 14.1 volt is normal run voltage. I monitor ammeter and voltmeter inflight.
 
I think you did a good job with the training you've had. I do question your CFI's for not going over what is a fairly common occurrence in single engine airplanes. As mentioned earlier, cycling the master before the battery got too low probably would have brought the alternator back on line.
 
Gotta admit, if you don't want a debrief, don't post. EVERY pilot comes up short in an emergency even if the outcome is good. I guarantee Sully could come up with a dozen things he would have/should have done differently. 30,000 hour ATP part 121 pilots do sim training every six months, and they certainly get electrical failures to deal with every time. And they go to the check list as we're supposed to do. And they still aren't perfect every time. OP did do a lot of things right and had a good outcome. That for sure doesn't mean he couldn't have done better. I don't think this thread was particularly harsh at all in the comments. Just my opinion on this, and I have had aviation emergencies to deal with, and I could have done better.
 
jspilot said:
One thing I am learning from this has nothing to do with the flying... It has a lot to do with the guys on here who are super pilots!

I was landing to prevent any possibility of something else going wrong. I planned for, and executed an approach to give myself enough space to avoid the plane in front of me. That's good airmanship and again I stand behind any decision I made. I'll reference the fact that I'm here posting about this now and not a crater in the ground that I made many more good decisions than bad ones!

All you having fun at my expense are truly revealing your true colors. I'll leave the judgement of who's in this for the benefit of the group and who's in this to just blow their already extremely heightened egos up even further to each individual. To those just in this to bash me or any typos I may make, please go find another thread to do that junk in. It's just serving to tear apart what was and should remain a good thread and is not addicting anything to the conversation. I know I don't own the thread but some of you guys really do tear apart any good conversation with your way of interacting. I'd hope we can keep this on track and I really appreciate all those trying to do that.
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Almost sounds a little defensive. Macho? "Not a crater...". Invulnerability? Didn't try to troubleshoot the problem. Resignation? Immediately chose to head back to point of origin and fixated on landing on your first approach no matter what. Impulsivity? Hey, not bad- you nailed 4 of the 5 dangerous attitudes in one flight! That's 80%. I hope you're 100% safe, always. I really don't see people criticizing you as much as you being rather sensitive to their input. I don't think you did anything wrong, but lots of other pilots have suggested that there was a lot more you could have done. Remember that YOU are the PIC, and that means that you get to make all the decisions AND be accountable for them. You lived- now go keep living.

No pilot is perfect, although the last perfect person was killed by a prefect Pilate. (Heh)
 
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Skip Miller said:
Not a criticism by any means - in fact congratulations for thinking through a plan that worked well - but next time cycle the master switch off and on as part of your troubleshooting. On some planes this will reset a breaker and if that works, keep on trucking! By the way, do this only once... if you lose power a second time, something is wrong and you need to be on the ground to check/repair it.

Good job.

-Skip
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Definitely only do that once. I know some guys who had a ratty 310 that kept blowing breakers on taxi out / run up. They put them back in. Lo and behold it was an arcing fuel pump that was blowing them... And the tip tank caught on fire on the take off roll. They kept it down and escaped ok, but that was seconds away from a much worse outcome.
 
The very first flight after I got my license I took my dad flying for a hop to TNP and back. Took off and halfway there got a *POP* in the ceiling speaker in the Musketeer. Ammeter was discharging pretty hard so I started turning things off. Ended up keeping the radios on but that was about it. I was freaking out but my dad was ice cold (used to fly interceptors in the RAF).

Got back to my home airport easily because I knew the area and called up saying what was going on. Right before I turned base I remembered my instructor mentioning toggling the master switch. I gave it a try and everything came back online in a hurry! The ammeter was charging pretty hard so I turned everything back on again to balance it out. At no point were we rushing to land or anything but we were heading back at the very least. Parked the plane, turned in the keys, they went to work looking for what happened. No breakers were popped or anything in flight.

I was never told to toggle the master only once and admittedly I was pretty uninformed on the electrical system. Why do you only do it once?
 
More basic procedures not taught:
if a circuit pops, evaluate "do I know why it popped?, "do I really need that item?"
If you do opt to reset it and it pops again, don't reset its second time!
 
Lance F said:
OP did do a lot of things right and had a good outcome. That for sure doesn't mean he couldn't have done better.
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Unfortunately his response seems to be "I survived, that's all that matters, and very experienced pilots should think about doing things my way instead."
 
MauleSkinner said:
Unfortunately his response seems to be "I survived, that's all that matters, and very experienced pilots should think about doing things my way instead."
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Lol. It's always funny when SGOTI doesn't get the respect they imagine they are due.
 
Lachlan said:
Almost sounds a little defensive. Macho? "Not a crater...". Invulnerability? Didn't try to troubleshoot the problem. Resignation? Immediately chose to head back to point of origin and fixated on landing on your first approach no matter what. Impulsivity? Hey, not bad- you nailed 4 of the 5 dangerous attitudes in one flight! That's 80%. I hope you're 100% safe, always. I really don't see people criticizing you as much as you being rather sensitive to their input. I don't think you did anything wrong, but lots of other pilots have suggested that there was a lot more you could have done. Remember that YOU are the PIC, and that means that you get to make all the decisions AND be accountable for them. You lived- now go keep living.

No pilot is perfect, although the last perfect person was killed by a prefect Pilate. (Heh)
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This post is totally absurd. This thread has now become about me. Sad really that it has.

Don't make it personal bud-- you don't know me. Don't judge me based on the account of the story. You've shown absolutely no respect for me throughout all of your posts and its disgusting the way you are flippant and insulting when I came on here, took the time to post the story so others can learn from it, myself included, with the intent of learning something and now you've managed to tick me off to the point of regretting I shared anything. Please go away and stop personally judging my character now.

Where does it end here? Your conclusion that I'm just happy to have survived and that's all that matters is both absurd, wrong and completely out of line with anything I've stated over and over again. Of course I'm happy to have survived. I've continually thanked guys for making very valid attempts to teach me new things throughout this thread and literally my first sentence of this entire thread states exactly why I posted this story in the first place. How unbelievable brazen you come across when you have now managed to insult my piloting skills by saying I'm dangerous and or display 4 out of the 5 danger signs. How unbelievably disrespectful you are when you insult me after I take the time and open myself up to critique for the betterment of this entire community and have been open to feedback and learning opportunities throughout!

You're not helping anyone learn anything new so just move along! I'm not responding to you anymore so go ahead and continue your little power trip here. I'm not responding because I hope this thread can get back to where it was going before you jumped in and ticked me off to the point where I needed to defend myself now as a pilot ( something I should not even need to do if others handled themselves better.) Again to those that are offering ideas/thoughts/ tips and showing respect,I appreciate that and it gives me some reason to continue to post on this site( although it's becoming much harder than it ever used to be.)
 
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jspilot said:
This post is totally absurd. This thread has now become about me. Sad really that it has.

Don't make it personal bud-- you don't know me. Don't judge me based on the account of the story. You've shown absolutely no respect for me throughout all of your posts and its disgusting the way you are flippant and insulting when I came on here, took the time to post the story so others can learn from it, myself included, with the intent of learning something and now you've managed to tick me off to the point of regretting I shared anything. Please go away and stop personally judging my character now.

Where does it end here? Your conclusion that I'm just happy to have survived is both absurd, wrong and completely out of line with anything I've stated over and over again. I've continually thanked guys for making very valid attempts to teach me new things throughout this thread and literally my first sentence of this entire thread states exactly why I posted this story in the first place. How unbelievable brazen you come across when you have now managed to insult my piloting skills by saying I'm dangerous and or display 4 out of the 5 danger signs. How unbelievably disrespectful you are when you insult me after I take the time and open myself up to critique for the betterment of this entire community and have been open to feedback and learning opportunities throughout!

You're not helping anyone learn anything new so just move along! I'm not responding to you anymore so go ahead and continue your little power trip here. I'm not responding because I hope this thread can get back to where it was going before you jumped in and ****ed me off to the point where I could not possibly not defend myself now as a pilot ( something I should not even need to do if others handled themselves better.) Again to those that are offering ideas/thoughts/ tips and showing respect,I appreciate that and it gives me some reason to continue to post on this site( although it's becoming much harder than it ever used to be.)
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Don't let the bastards get you down. Was your response to the electrical system malfunction perfect? No. Is anyone's response to a new situation perfect? Rarely. Live and learn.
 
Hey, you did well enough - everyone involved still has all thier fingers and toes, and the airplane can be used again. . .yeah, you probably got a little OCD about landing it - being as it was still a perfectly good airplane, just NORDO.

But no harm done; FWIW, a friend in the same situation entered on upwind, then followed an aircraft just taking off - he lucked out, as the other guy stayed in the pattern, giving him a semi-clear way to "tail gate" around the pattern.
 
"Just fly the plane" is a mantra I was tought. Run checklists, but don't get distracted. I know of a few airline accident reports where pilots fixated on the problem and crashed the plane. Surely they didn't know what the problem or solution was, nor the impending doom, otherwise they would have chosen differently.

The link in this thread by @Buster1 is a worthwhile read:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...fety-procedures-in-your-plane-article.105415/
I like to chair fly or bed fly, and I fiddle with the plane, but I never actually sit in the left seat and pretend I'm flying...good practice to ingrain in the memory.
 
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455 Bravo Uniform said:
"Just fly the plane" is a mantra I was tought. Run checklists, but don't get distracted. I know of a few airline accident reports where pilots fixated on the problem and crashed the plane. Surely they didn't know what the problem or solution was, nor the impending doom, otherwise they would have chosen differently.
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"Just fly the plane" is NOT correct. "Fly the airplane first" is what is correct.

One ALWAYS needs to fly the airplane, but there are some other steps needed to fly the airplane other than stick and rudder.
 
a couple of questions for the group as a whole:
1: what does the ammeter tell you and what should you see?
bob
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Actually, a voltmeter is a better indicator of a failed alternator than the ammeter (especially the load type rather the the C/D ones). Since it's pretty trivial to implement, most engine monitors these days provide a volt meter as a standard feature. I set a big alert to let me know when I was below 13v because it meant the alternator wasn't working.

For years I had KX-155 navcoms in the planes I flew regularly. One neat feature of the KX is that if it starts to lose segments in the display, you're losing the bus voltage, most likely due to the alternator/generator. Sometimes all you need to do is toggle the master to get things back.
 
jordane93 said:
What we've learned:

1. Never post a story/emergency/incident/accident
2. You suck as a pilot
3. You could have/should have/would have done...
4. Everyone is an expert

Did I miss anything?:)

You got the plane down safely, nobody died, and you didn't bend metal. Sounds like you did fine. I'm second guessing posting what happened to me today!
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I have a story from my last flight too...but I am going to keep it to myself

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
I have a story from my last flight too...but I am going to keep it to myself

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
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See and that's what's unfortunate. I hope you do share so we can learn from it. That's really why this site should be around.

Honestly it's not too bad to be in the crosshairs. Just use the ignore button for those that tick you off!
 
@jspilot nice job getting back in one piece, it takes a lot of courage to share stories like this on these forums and I thank you for doing so as we can all learn from it, and learn from each other's input as well

Couple short stories and points from me
*15 years ago my friend lost all electrical on his long xc during training and flew to a controlled field, flew the pattern 1,000 above TPA and waited for the light gun signals to land

*another pilot I know also lost all electronics recently, no handheld but he tried cellphone and had no luck getting a signal.. so he also flew the pattern at 1,000 above TPA and got the light gun signals after a few turns in the pattern

I've also had the low voltage light come on in a 172P, and it's a worrying item, but in perspective the plane doesn't need electrical so the engine should be fine. Seeing the fuel gauges on zero would give me pause too, but unless you sprung a catastrophic leak exactly when you lost the alternator (which would be quite the coincidence) it's probably not actually low fuel, just tied to the loss of electricity

The main thing I would have done differently is established myself in the pattern and flown a standard pattern. You don't need a radio at an uncontrolled field and convention is to enter on the 45 downwind and merge with the flow. Personally a midair is one of my biggest fears, and unless I have no engine or am on fire I would fly the pattern to mitigate the risk of a midair. That would be my one tip to you. We all practiced engine failures in the pattern, so if you'd lost the engine on the downwind you still would have had the field made.. the guy who cut in front of you from left base? Imagine if timing or spacing had been only a tiny bit different...

Anyway, stay safe out there, congrats on another landing you can walk away from, oh and go buy a handheld, cheers
 
There should be sub forums here, Superior Pilots of America and Regular Pilots of America. I will never post anything but generic stuff here just because of what this thread has become. Pretty much any thread like this turns into a superior pilots chest thumping. Thankfully for the chest thumpers there is a supply of newer people who don't know any better that will post something like this so they can get their dose of ego stroking. OP, you did fine, you learned and will be a better pilot because of this. Lastly, I have found the best way to deal with the ******* posters is to never address them. Never try to justify yourself to them, never reply to them. Let them quote each other in their echo chamber.
 
Lance F said:
Gotta admit, if you don't want a debrief, don't post. EVERY pilot comes up short in an emergency even if the outcome is good. I guarantee Sully could come up with a dozen things he would have/should have done differently. 30,000 hour ATP part 121 pilots do sim training every six months, and they certainly get electrical failures to deal with every time. And they go to the check list as we're supposed to do. And they still aren't perfect every time. OP did do a lot of things right and had a good outcome. That for sure doesn't mean he couldn't have done better. I don't think this thread was particularly harsh at all in the comments. Just my opinion on this, and I have had aviation emergencies to deal with, and I could have done better.
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Everyone praised Sully for landing in the river and saving lives. Looked at from a different point of view, look at all the luggage he lost....:lol::lol::lol:
 
It happened to me, night time with smoke in the cockpit. I used my backup handheld to communicate. My buddy had the controls while I fished it out.
 
pmanton said:
It happened to me, night time with smoke in the cockpit. I used my backup handheld to communicate. My buddy had the controls while I fished it out.
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Yeah the backup handheld probably would have helped a lot. Anyone have any recommendations on a good but not too expensive model to purchase?
 
Only one comment...

If the flaps don't work, don't forget slips generate all sorts of drag.

That's how all the kids with no flap airplanes do it. ;)
 
jspilot said:
Anyone have any recommendations on a good but not too expensive model to purchase?
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I have an ancient one from Sportys. They're about 200 or just under for the cheapest ones. I figured it was good security to have for the price of about 2hrs plane rental. I've seen people posting them for sale locally too for less

PS- I think that's my favorite thing in the Cirrus is the dual alternator and 2 buses, one alt is gear driven the other belt
 
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