TnG's in retractable gear aircraft

Status
Not open for further replies.
AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
20,804
Location
Denton, TX
Display Name
Display name:
The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
Having zero PIC time in retractable gear aircraft, I have a noob question about what is a good practice/procedure.

When doing TnG's in the traffic pattern, are you leaving the gear out the entire time or retracting the gear as you climb? If the latter, where in the pattern do you lower the gear?
 
I do know that the club I used to belong to (which had retractable gear planes) prohibited T&Gs out of fear of gear ups. (Insurance probably played a role...)
 
Gear goes up once there's no usable runway left during climb out. Gear goes down same as any approach. For me, in my mooney, it's about midfield in downwind.
 
I've never done touch and go's in a retract, but I don't think it's a good idea to modify the routine of such an important item. Downwind abeam is where I lower the gear if in the pattern.
 
That's a more difficult question than you might think. That's in part because any answer you receive is going to be based on an underlying philosophy about touch & goes. So here's mine, and I apologize for going way beyond answering your question:

Touch & goes are a way to minimize the Hobbs meter and fuel costs practicing takeoffs and landings. That's all. They are, simply put, a "regular" landing (normal, crosswind, short, soft, whatever) followed by a reconfiguration of the airplane for a "regular" takeoff. That philosophy leads to 2 results:
  • If you retract the gear on a regular takeoff, you retract them on a touch & go (same for flaps and anything else that is different on takeoff than on landing);
  • In the case of retractable gear aircraft, I am in the group that does not like touch & goes. No, it would never, ever happen to me :rolleyes:, but there are way too many stories out there about pilots who have retracted the gear when they meant the flaps (I actually represented someone whom it happened to, during his transition training with a CFI on board).
When to put the gear down? That's a technique issue and IMO, a consistent SOP for gear extension, one that is so consistent that it becomes a habit that is hard to brake, is far more important than the "when" you choose to make habit-forming. The closest I ever came to a gear up landing was when I saw someone else's technique and liked it and decided to change the one I have been using for a number of years. So I am a big believer in a consistent SOP.

This is not a recommendation that you use it, but the visual technique I use is, my gear goes down when within 3 miles of the runway and at pattern altitude (for instrument, I'm in the large group that goes gear down at the FAF).

So, when I do pattern work with a retract, it's gear down as soon as I level off at pattern altitude.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Having zero PIC time in retractable gear aircraft, I have a noob question about what is a good practice/procedure.

When doing TnG's in the traffic pattern, are you leaving the gear out the entire time or retracting the gear as you climb? If the latter, where in the pattern do you lower the gear?
Click to expand...

Practice the way you want to preform, and you'll preform the way you practiced.

Ask yourself, when do you normally retract the gear? That's the answer to your question :)


If you're not proficient enough to do touch and goes in a RG, you shouldn't be PICing the dang thing in the first place
 
Zeldman said:
Yep. At least for all the retracts I have flown. Gear usually goes down abeam the numbers.
Click to expand...

How I was taught, teach, and do it. On the go no usable runway remaining gear up.

When I was an Air Force controller that's how the Air Force birds did it too, but if we had a Navy bird in the pattern they left their gear down.

I guess either method is fine as long as the gear is down when you arrive.
 
midlifeflyer said:
there are way too many stories out there about pilots who have retracted the gear when they meant the flaps
Click to expand...
That happened to our club's Bonanza V35 a few months before I joined. End result was the nose gear unlocking and folding under before the aircraft achieved sufficient lift for flight.
 
Retract and extend. Part of the point is to get into the habit and process of putting the gear down at the right point in the pattern.
 
I quit doing T&Gs after initial training. Practice I do the whole thing, clear rw, clean up, taxi back, and takeoff. I can think about what I want to do better the next time.
 
mscard88 said:
How I was taught, teach, and do it. On the go no usable runway remaining gear up.

When I was an Air Force controller that's how the Air Force birds did it too, but if we had a Navy bird in the pattern they left their gear down.

I guess either method is fine as long as the gear is down when you arrive.
Click to expand...
Beat me to it. I prefer the Navy's method, but both work. For a jammed pattern, the Navy way seems a little easier.
 
I find quick repetition of landings useful to hone timing, so TNG is good. But, I have Johnson bar gear, I might not do it with a gear switch.

If I confuse Johnson bar with flaps then I probably shouldn't be flying.
 
Salty said:
But, I have Johnson bar gear, I might not do it with a gear switch.

If I confuse Johnson bar with flaps then I probably shouldn't be flying.
Click to expand...

Even the electric gear Mooneys are hard to confuse, and if I do, I shouldn't be flying:

panel.jpg


Typical 201 panel, gear selector is the big tire shaped white lever just below and left of the whiskey compass, has a big red button beside it.

The flap switch is harder to find, find the black cowl flaps knob (pulled out) below and right of the mixture knob. Just below that you can see the white tip of the flaps switch.

Very different controls in very different locations.
 
As someone who is awaiting the prebuy inspection on a MOONEY M20C, that video was hard to watch, but good that I watched it. I think I will keep my hands off the Johnson bar until I am airborne. BTW, I don't think I will confuse gear and flap levers even though they are right next to each other.
 
In the 337, the book that I read said to leave it down the entire time because of the time/performance detriment of its operation.

The 210 has the same gear system. No idea on what that book says to do.
 
Honestly, there really isn't that much to be gained from a T&G that you can't get from a stop'n'go.

People do T&Gs in retracts -- and I'm even allowed to in my current club (wasn't allowed previously). But I don't see the point. If the runway is too short for a stop'n'go, it's marginal at best for a T&G, and a full stop really would be a better idea. It's just too easy to try to take off with full flap, leading to really long takeoff rolls. Or with the cowl flaps closed or the mixture leaned, or a bunch of other misconfigurations. Lifting gear in ground effect in some airplanes is a Really Bad Idea.
 
I dont have a ton of RG time, and most places ive seen that rent/instruct in RG prohibit TnG and dont want you touching flaps until off runway. I personally think of it more like a twin, identify switch, verify switch, then flaps up, add power and do TnG. You just have to be careful.
In most RG's wouldnt you have to A)Hit the gear instead of flaps and B)have enough lift or a bad squat switch to cause the the gear to fold on the ground?

There are at least 2 links in that accident chain, the pilot and the switch.

Dont be link #1. I would say its easy, but the amount of people who still land gear up is amazing, so maybe it aint so easy...
 
Salty said:
I find quick repetition of landings useful to hone timing, so TNG is good. But, I have Johnson bar gear, I might not do it with a gear switch.

If I confuse Johnson bar with flaps then I probably shouldn't be flying.
Click to expand...
If you confuse the Johnson bar with flaps, the you probably flew a Cherokee at some time.
 
My gear retraction is when there is no usable runway and gear extension is either midfield or FAF. No change for pattern work vs a "normal flight".
 
Cooter said:
Beat me to it. I prefer the Navy's method, but both work. For a jammed pattern, the Navy way seems a little easier.
Click to expand...

At Eglin we had a local procedure where we'd tell a fighter to expect a mid field closed pattern on runway 12 because of a departure or low approach on runway 19. The F15 (33 TFW at the time) jocks loved it, pull the nose way up while the gear was coming up, and chandelle to the downwind. We were east of them when they did that and it was an impressive to see that big fighters belly as it pulled up for the downwind.
 
Last edited:
With retracts, I do not recommend doing T&G if you can avoid them. Too many factors that can go wrong causing a bad accident. I like having the extra time to clean up and follow good procedure for GUMPS in the pattern. Older Bonanzas have the issue of flap switch close to gear switch so making sure to say, see, touch and do in sequence can avoid a gear up incident.
 
Margy did a BFR once in a friend's Arrow. After takeoff, the instructor tells her she can raise the gear except Margy can't find it. The instructor points out the switch (about the same location as on the Mooney panel above). Margy grabs it with two fingers and says "This little thing? How cute." The Navion gear lever is a large chrome wheel that sticks out of the panel about 4 inches (it works both a hydraulic valve and mechanically pulls the uplocks).
 
In my airplane a T&G is a problem because of the big trim change from landing to takeoff configuration... probably takes 15-20 seconds. Won't ever do a T&G, only a stop and go on a long runway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
There's no use doing touch and goes in a retrac if your not going to cycle the gear.
 
I don't do touch and goes in the retract. But for pattern work I cycle the gear. The only thing I do not do differently is that I do not shutoff the hydraulics if I'm staying in the pattern. Besides, if you forget to turn it on, you find out (it's more obvious in the Navion than in the DC-9 where Continental managed to have a belly landing because they forgot to turn up the hydraulic power...that coupled with having an idiot for a captain on that flight).
 
I'm a little reticent to recommend a point in the pattern where you lower the gear. I lower the gear in the vicinity of the airport (once getting to the Vle). I do a mandatory confirmation check on short final UNCONDITIONALLY. If you rely solely that you drop gear abeam the numbers or wherever, you are setting yourself up for failure when given a base or final entry at a towered field (or when flying an instrument approach).
 
flyingron said:
If you rely solely that you drop gear abeam the numbers or wherever, you are setting yourself up for failure when given a base or final entry at a towered field (or when flying an instrument approach).
Click to expand...

Flopping your "midfield" out to about a 1.5 mile base at towered airports should be automatic, even for low time fixed gear pilots. Sure, we think and say 'opposite point of landing' for flaps, power setting, initial trim, but we do it almost automatically when given the base entry by the tower.
 
Ravioli said:
Flopping your "midfield" out to about a 1.5 mile base at towered airports should be automatic, even for low time fixed gear pilots. Sure, we think and say 'opposite point of landing' for flaps, power setting, initial trim, but we do it almost automatically when given the base entry by the tower.
Click to expand...
Yes, but human beings are creatures of habit and the thought that, if I get a base leg, quickly gets lost in the abeam habit.
 
Call me a rebel I guess. I do it the Navy way and leave it down for T&Gs. No point in cycling the gear for a few minutes flight time.
 
flyingron said:
I'm a little reticent to recommend a point in the pattern where you lower the gear. I lower the gear in the vicinity of the airport (once getting to the Vle). I do a mandatory confirmation check on short final UNCONDITIONALLY. If you rely solely that you drop gear abeam the numbers or wherever, you are setting yourself up for failure when given a base or final entry at a towered field (or when flying an instrument approach).
Click to expand...

I do three checks for gear down and locked, and only three: VFR abeam the numbers, hand comes off handle when gear down confirmed with 3 green and one in the mirror, Then after wings level on base, then again wings level on final. If the pattern entry is on the base leg, then 1 mile before joining the base leg gear comes down, joining base check #2, wings level on final check #3. Straight in gear down at 5 mile final, check at three mile final, then again short final. Anymore than 3 checks and sometimes other things might get over looked.

I see too many people that try the when it feels right method of letting the gear down tend to not check after the initial gear down check. With a friend of mine in his 210, I pulled the circuit breaker, and he put the handle down and never checked the light or did a visual check for the gear. I did bring it to his attention before crossing the threshold. We also found out that his gear not down warning horn was not working.....

Whatever works, stick with it.
 
Every time. Building the routine of checking that gear every time you land.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top