paflyer
Final Approach
For doing nothing except collecting the tax and writing a check to the city once a month.
Those ramp fee rip off FBOs. Maybe not.
- Thread starter Clip4
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These two points vary from airport to airport.
One of the things I see that gets misunderstood all the time is the difference between a use tax (such as landing fees) that is charged by the airport/airport sponsor itself and any parking/service fees that may be charged by the FBO. The "use tax" typically goes directly to the airport and into the budget to keep it afloat while the service fees charged by the FBO typically stay with the FBO. I'm ok with both, as long as they're reasonable. The airport costs money to maintain and operate, and the FBOs are typically charged a fairly substantial fee for property/building leases to operate there, so they need to do something to survive.
Who maintains the ramp and facilities depends on how the FBO contract is negotiated. At my home airport the city cleans and maintains all the buildings, including the building that the FBO is in. Unfortunately the building needs a fair amount of work and the city won't spend the money to keep it nice, which in turn makes the FBO look worse than it deserves. And the city wants to keep raising the lease rates at the same time. Other cities require the FBO to care for the property and buildings.
The city and/or FBO may not balance the books with the ramp fees but they get closer than they would if they didn't charge them. I have yet to be involved in a discussion where an FBO or airport is actively trying to drive away light airplanes, particularly by increasing fees to the point they don't come. Unfortunately, some airport managers and/or FBO operators don't seem to realize that as the fees rise fewer airplanes show up.
Graueradler
Pattern Altitude
Agreed. Not contrary to what I said
PaulMillner
Line Up and Wait
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
There you go. Perfect job for you. You can sit out on the ramp all day under an umbrella recording the ramp users, collecting the fees, preparing the monthly report, and submitting the airports share for $6 an arrival. You will be rich I tell ya. LOL
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Drake the Outlaw
Bullsqueeze. They are not published because the FBO is too lazy or nefarious to publish its prices. If convenience stores can update fuel prices several times a day and post those prices on a big board outside each store, FBO's can do it with ramp fees. Ain't hard.
Lachlan
En-Route
Airplanes require a few things in order to do what they were designed to do. They require fuel. They require a runway to take off and land, although they can return to earth nearly anywhere. It's just much easier to reuse them if they're returned to an improved runway. Airplanes also require a place to be kept when they're not flying. It boils down to fuel, a runway, and a place to park. Bang, boom, pow! FBOs and/or airport authorities are trying making money on all three in some instances. (Let's leave the maintenance aspect of airplane operation out of this, for now.) Landing fees, ramp fees, fuel taxes. There are many places where airplanes can land without having to pay hidden fees, and fuel is sold for a decent price, and parking can be had for the taking. Then there are the special places where it costs you money to land, park, and fuel is expensive. Who ever said life is fair? I don't agree with some ramp fees, and others are perfectly acceptable. Flying in to eat at the airport cafe? No fees, cool. Fees, but waved if you bought lunch? Cool. Bought fuel, no fees? Cool. You're still paying for stuff, so you don't need to be banged out twice by the same date. No double tap. Be fair about fees and give pilots something of value without acting like you're the greatest thing to ever happen to airports, or that pilots should crawl on their knees to thank you for earning your living off their backs. 
All FBOs need pilots. Is the inverse true? Be appreciative of your customers if you work at one. There are plenty of other places to go...
All FBOs need pilots. Is the inverse true? Be appreciative of your customers if you work at one. There are plenty of other places to go...
denverpilot
Tied Down
If it’s a tax, why should the FBO keep any of it at all? It’s a bad argument to call it a tax if the FBO makes a profit on collecting it.
If the FBO were simply mandated to collect it as a tax, and it was an issue with only the municipality or county, that’s easy... work to vote out the schmucks who levied it. We can’t vote out an FBO. Plus in my state, all new taxes have to be voter approved. This has the strange side effect of politicians skirting the law by calling taxes “fees” because they truly hate it, but We The People have the ability to put pressure on them to stop that practice also, if enough sheep finally figure out the politicians made an end run around our really good law requiring tax approval by taxpayers.
The car analogy was poor, too. Anyone can look up the vehicle sales tax in any district, and many do. I buy from dealers who are in the lowest tax districts if I have to mess with a dealer at all. Plus even from a private seller I’m paying the exact same tax rate on the sale. That tax is consistent and visible. Changes to it would be “big news”.
Can even have the car shipped from another dealer inside the bad district for $0 most of the time. Car dealers move inventory around all the time.
If the FBO were simply mandated to collect it as a tax, and it was an issue with only the municipality or county, that’s easy... work to vote out the schmucks who levied it. We can’t vote out an FBO. Plus in my state, all new taxes have to be voter approved. This has the strange side effect of politicians skirting the law by calling taxes “fees” because they truly hate it, but We The People have the ability to put pressure on them to stop that practice also, if enough sheep finally figure out the politicians made an end run around our really good law requiring tax approval by taxpayers.
The car analogy was poor, too. Anyone can look up the vehicle sales tax in any district, and many do. I buy from dealers who are in the lowest tax districts if I have to mess with a dealer at all. Plus even from a private seller I’m paying the exact same tax rate on the sale. That tax is consistent and visible. Changes to it would be “big news”.
Can even have the car shipped from another dealer inside the bad district for $0 most of the time. Car dealers move inventory around all the time.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Or maybe a sign over the counter “They keep coming”.
denverpilot
Tied Down
“But not for long... everyone knows we’re ripping them a new one after their first time with us.”
Lachlan
En-Route
Seems like you're a little worried about the general feelings of GA pilots and FBO fees. Maybe more than a little worried. Ah, well, enjoy it. Some day you'll need me. I work in health care.
Payback, I mean health care costs, are a form of karma best served cold. Or something like that.- Joined
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Drake the Outlaw
Attitudes like that are a contributing factor to the decline in GA. Too many FBO's try to screw the customers, rather than providing good service at a good price, and those same FBO's are the ones which run off student pilots with inflated charges, over-priced ground schools, etc. One day, those FBO's are gonna look around and ask "Where'd everyone go?" And then put the "Closed" sign on the door.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Seems like you're a little worried about the general feelings of GA pilots and FBO fees. Maybe more than a little worried. Ah, well, enjoy it. Some day you'll need me. I work in health care.
Oh wait, a guy in health care complaining about egregious fees and transparency? At least the FBOs can tell you the fees if the call. No hospital in the US will do that.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you do not like a business practice, quit using the business instead of whining about it.
One of AOPA’s targeted airport FBOs is at KEYW. Not sure what people think a piece of property the size of the ramp at KEYW is worth if the airport closes.
Everything in Key West is expensive. So expecting an expensive ramp fee should come as no shock. So if you decide to fly your own plane to KEYW and pay the fee there that is your decision. No one made you, held a gun to your head ect.
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Drake the Outlaw
Sure. What FBO are you associated with?
If you can abuse terms to pretend your a fee is a tax, let’s also pretend your ramp is my hangar and you should be paying me.
paflyer
Final Approach
Lachlan
En-Route
Ah, so you do have some reading skills. Just for fun, I’ll point out that the “egregious fees” you write of are negotiated with insurance companies, and often vary depending on which insurance company you use. Every single hospital I have worked at has a fee schedule that patients can review. All they have to do is ask. Am I defending excessively high health care costs? No. It’s out of control. Sure, there are lots of skilled and educated employees in the office, the lab, medical imaging, oncology, neonatal, cardiac, and on and on, and their time and skill set is worth money. It adds up. Who would you rather have treating you, a high school,dropout with no knowledge of healt care, or degreed and certified/licensed health care professionals? I believe that health care should be a right, but please don’t demand an answer about how to fund it because I don’t know. I do know that equating health care costs to FBO fees is silly. Health care is a little more complicated than chocking a tire or fueling an airplane.
Bill Watson
En-Route
Agreed. I’ve been flying into KEYW for years and have always valued the airport and FBO, though I didn’t think much of it when they were operating out of a temporary structure (hurricane? I guess that’s a cost of doing business there as well).
Now the FBO is not a high service fall all over themselves type of operation but little in Key West is. But they have location.
One choice I have when going there is tanking up with some of the cheapest fuel on the east coast just over the bay in Ft Meyers or Naples. But it’s not worth it. I’d rather arrive after a long leg from on high, cool and refreshed. The fuel is priced like rentals on the Key; high.
The best part is trading trip logs with ground pounders flying into KMIA and driving a rental down.
I’m glad they are there making a business of it.
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Instead of whining about people complaining, why not see if there's a way to address their concerns without harming your business?
The taxes used to purchase the land and to build and improve the airport were collected through the threat of force, were they not?
How does it benefit either your business or the airport to drive light aircraft off the field? Is it because it makes more room for biz jets, which can afford to pay more and buy more fuel?
The revenue that either the FBO or the airport receives from people who go elsewhere is zero.
Bill Watson
En-Route
When I go to KEYW for Halloween week, the problem is finding a parking space that’s within a half mile of the FBO. Not sure how many $$$ are being missed. I’m just glad it’s first come, first served as far as parking for my home built. Now that I think of it, I was thankful that I got a spot with tiedowns for my old taildragger. Not too many of those spots anywhere these days.
Let’s get some wealthy FBO Owner’s on here to tell us what cash cows their operations are. There seems to be this nostalgic vision of small Mom and Pop operations with high service values being pushed out by the big guys. The business looks tough to me, real tough. I really value the ability to piggyback on the lux services offered to lux customers at busy, well located, in airports. And do that piggy backing with my little home built kitplane. Yeah!
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woodchucker
Pattern Altitude
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woodchucker
Interesting. It’s a non-profit, claiming $250/day operating expense running off of pilot donations? Or do they get funding from elsewhere? I can’t imagine it being sustainable just off of pilots. Government grants maybe? Would need to dig into their financial reports to know for sure.
Personally, I just consider making a couple of phone calls to FBOs part of flight planning. Which is what that rampfee.me does for you ... on someone else’s dime.
There's also this:
"Want to buy a datafeed to use in your product?"
Do you have a problem with how they're funded?
Is it like that every week?
If the information on rampfee.me is correct, EYW's ramp fee is $29, and is waived with purchase of ten gallons of fuel. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Seems like you're a little worried about the general feelings of GA pilots and FBO fees. Maybe more than a little worried. Ah, well, enjoy it. Some day you'll need me. I work in health care.
Strangely I have to agree with @Clip4 on this one. Healthcare is the number one cause of personal bankruptcy in the US. Seeing someone threaten someone else (“you’ll need me”) using a stick that big over a discussion of ramp fees, is somewhat sickening.
Healthcare costs literally destroy whatever’s left of a sick person’s life if they have to pay out of pocket and make their family members into wage slaves for decades for even simple medical procedures. Most of it based upon fake pricing and hidden costs galore to pretend the costs are higher than they actually are to suck money from insurers. Insurers we are all mandated to pay or be criminals.
That coming from a nurse’s husband in a relatively expensive specialty but nowhere near surgical or trauma.
The comparison isn’t even close. FBO fees don’t destroy lives or create slaves to pay for medical CxOs Mercedes and multiple multi-million dollar houses.
woodchucker
Pattern Altitude
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woodchucker
Nope. But I would find it funny if it came from a government source to perform a function that pilots could do themselves.
This thread could really use a poll: do you call FBOs as part of your flight planning?
- yes
- no, I use web sources or FF or similar
- no, I just go for it and am happy
- no, I just like to squawk about it after the fact
I’m really not trying to crop dust here. I just don’t understand the difficulty in making a couple phone calls, and I absolutely hate making phone calls. But knowing what to expect upon landing is kinda vital to the mission.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
The ramp at KEYW would be totally unusable if it were free and first come first served. The FBO organizes the aircraft and keeps things moving reasonably well.
I don't understand the difficulty in putting fees on a Web site.
Lachlan
En-Route
Agreed. Funny to hear an IT guy rant about "fake pricing."
Health care costs have been referenced in this post a few times, because people don't understand them, just like many don't appear to understand FBO fees. I certainly didn't initiate the comparison, and, if you read what I wrote, I don't condone exorbitant costs, either. I said there is a lot more to health care costs than there is in FBO ops. I'm also a very vocal advocate for care for those who don't have insurance or finances to pay for it. I never threatened anyone, anywhere. Stop being overly dramatic. People complained about "hidden fees" and no upfront pricing in healthcare, yet @Clip4 has been defending FBOs that don't post their fees and stating that it's ok. I guess I shouldn't have used the
and tried to make a parallel to a silly form of logic with a sillier form of illogic. I stand by what I said. I'm sorry, Nate, if you were offended. Frankly, I'm offended if you were offended. Come on, man- it's a discussion about hidden FBO fees, and it's a pretty solidly one-sided argument. Lighten up, etc. and one more for good times. I don't agree with high medical costs. I don't have the solution for how to lower them, but I wish I could do it. I will say again, I believe it should be a basic human right. As a species, we are fragile, but we are numerous, and together we should be able to fund a system that gets everyone what they need. Remember, also, that some people do not want to be treated.In summary, if an FBO feels that it's fair to charge hidden fees to pilots/aircraft owners, it is not ok to joke about it by intimating that hidden medical fees are equally justified by the same logic.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
Many times handling fees are based on the size/weight of the airplane and on the number of gallons purchased, also depending on the size/weight of the airplane. I have seen CSRs look through a long list; "What kind of airplane was that again??"
So, it may not be as straightforward as you are imagining. Still, I think they should publish it on their website. Speaking of websites, some small FBOs may not have someone who is computer literate enough to change something on a website if fees change.
I wonder if anyone's ever fat-fingered PA12 for a PC12
blueskyMD
Pre-takeoff checklist
How about going to the smaller airports and driving to where you are going?
I have had great success accomplishing what i wanted to do by using smaller uncontrolled airports. I never go to class B airports unless I am flying an Angel flight when I do not pay a dime and still treated well. Other busy airports : I go there if I must and just not worry abut what how much they charge.
I have had great success accomplishing what i wanted to do by using smaller uncontrolled airports. I never go to class B airports unless I am flying an Angel flight when I do not pay a dime and still treated well. Other busy airports : I go there if I must and just not worry abut what how much they charge.
You don't even have to get that specific. I've run into situations where the CSR doesn't understand the fee structure and just charges a flat fee to everyone, regardless of what kind of plane they showed up in or what services they needed.
paflyer
Final Approach
Those aren't the "guilty parties".
Bill Watson
En-Route
No it’s not. There’s a peak week or two around Halloween (Fantasy Fest). I think there are some other big weeks or weekends. But it is a busy GA destination just because of where it is.
Ramp fees? I never pay attention or research ramp fees because I ‘always’ buy fuel (see running out of fuel psychology thread for details.). At the current moment, ramp fees are charged to aircraft that do not buy fuel. My guess is that the biggest target of those fees are charters, ‘netjet’ type operators and private operators that tanker jet A around because there are thousands of $$$ involved. If I top off and get charged a ramp fee, I’ll question it even if I’m below some arbitrary minimum.
I’m only looking at overnight fees and fuel prices. However I have noticed that the ‘free overnight tie down’ n in exchange for a top off is going away as ramp fees have been inserted in the mix.
Again, at the current moment ‘landing fees’ are generally paid to local government entities though often collected by FBOs. You can usually tell by the lack of vigor the FBO puts into collecting it... which is not to say the county won’t mail you an invoice.
So, topping off with 10+ gallons is a reasonable expectIon. A $29 ramp fee is no stiffer than using the facility without buying anything. How about those bathrooms at Naples? They’re worth a top off.
Is there some price creep going on? Absolutely. Is it justified? Reading this thread, yes, maybe. A business requires enough ROI to justify the investment over other risky opportunities. Why run a FBO when you can buy some downtown real estate and run a parking lot? Or speculate on some patch of land at some country crossroads with a storage rental joint?
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Bill Watson
En-Route
There a few if any FBO front desk people interested in fat fingering anybody for anything. Few owners work the front desk. On the contrary, most would rather exchange a ramp charge or rack rate fuel price for a smile and a chat. That’s why I NEVER call ahead to get prices and ALWAYS treat the front desk people with respect and humor.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Agreed. Funny to hear an IT guy rant about "fake pricing."
Not sure what that’s about. We give quotes on our products readily and nowadays they’re essentially rental quotes, which isn’t a trend I like in IT, but it’s where the industry went. Annual fee, here it is, same for everyone, take it or leave it. Not sure what’s “fake” about that.
Sorry if I overrracted to the medical thing. I’ve watched $5 Tylenols be a minor part in helping bankrupt a couple of good friends who had GOOD insurance and even could have shopped Docs and hospitals if they could have gotten real quotes for the procedures being done.
You can’t get them, and that’s as wrong as FBO hidden fees you have to call about, but at least MOST FBOs will answer without lying or omitting any. Clip is right about that.
Getting that from a medical facility is damn near impossible. “Oh we charge this, and the Doc charges that, and some Doc who needs a new Benz literally poked his face in the door and pretended to do a “consult” and he charged this other thing...” It’s truly insane.
denverpilot
Tied Down
That is no longer true everywhere now, but used to be a good rule-of-thumb to use a decade ago.
The “guilty parties” as Palm puts it, are usually the “offenders” in that longstanding but unwritten rule. Large fancy FBO chains that make deals with airports to give the airport kickbacks in their leases.
Rarely does the airport bring up that idea first. It’s the chain that says “Want some money? We know exactly how to extort it without your taxpayers or voters noticing...” without saying that, of course.
Not on paper anyway. No evidence trail of collusion.