Those ramp fee rip off FBOs. Maybe not.

C

Clip4

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Cli4ord
So you roll up to the ramp and you think you have the right to use the public ramp and gate free of charge if only Mr. Ripoff FBO wasn’t demanding egregious fees.

“(b) Ramp Fee: Any City controlled ramp related uses by Lessee that are not included in the Leased Premises shall be for public use and subject to a Ramp Fee, as established by the City. The Ramp Fee shall be set annually by the City for use of City controlled ramp. Lessee or sub lessee shall remit to the City seventy-five percent (75%) of all revenues received for use of City controlled ramp or equivalent charges within ten (10) calendar days following the end of the month in which the ramp was utilized, accompanied by an accounting of all City controlled ramp rental activity. Lessee shall retain the remaining twenty-five percent (25%) of such revenues as consideration for Lessee’s management of said City controlled ramp rental and collection of resulting revenues. The City retains the right to enter upon City controlled ramp at any time and to take an inventory of any aircraft parked on the City controlled ramp, as well as a right to audit Lessee’s or sublessee’s accounting of City controlled ramp rental activity. Lessee or sublessee cannot charge any fees for use of the City controlled ramp other than the Ramp Fee set by the City for use of City controlled ramp and cannot waive any fees set by the City and due to the City for use of City controlled ramp without City’s written approval. The calculated fuel flowage fee shall be due and payable by the 20th of the month in the month reported.”

So of that $25 you are bitching about, the FBO gets $6.25.



.
 
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Clip4 said:
So you roll up to the ramp and you think you have the right to use the public ramp and gate free of charge if only Mr. Ripoff FBO wasn’t demanding egregious fees.

(b) Ramp Fee: Any City controlled ramp related uses by Lessee that are not included in the Leased Premises shall be for public use and subject to a Ramp Fee, as established by the City. The Ramp Fee shall be set annually by the City for use of City controlled ramp. Lessee or sub lessee shall remit to the City seventy-five percent (75%) of all revenues received for use of City controlled ramp or equivalent charges within ten (10) calendar days following the end of the month in which the ramp was utilized, accompanied by an accounting of all City controlled ramp rental activity. Lessee shall retain the remaining twenty-five percent (25%) of such revenues as consideration for Lessee’s management of said City controlled ramp rental and collection of resulting revenues. The City retains the right to enter upon City controlled ramp at any time and to take an inventory of any aircraft parked on the City controlled ramp, as well as a right to audit Lessee’s or sublessee’s accounting of City controlled ramp rental activity. Lessee or sublessee cannot charge any fees for use of the City controlled ramp other than the Ramp Fee set by the City for use of City controlled ramp and cannot waive any fees set by the City and due to the City for use of City controlled ramp without City’s written approval. The calculated fuel flowage fee shall be due and payable by the 20th of the month in the month reported.

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OK, Have at it. But PUBLISH the fees ahead of time and ITEMIZE which parts are city and which parts are FBO.

There is simply no excuse for hiding all this stuff and insisting people call ahead to find out. None. It's not "free enterprise". It' s not "capitalism". It's "There's a sucker born every minute."
 
jsstevens said:
OK, Have at it. But PUBLISH the fees ahead of time and ITEMIZE which parts are city and which parts are FBO.

There is simply no excuse for hiding all this stuff and insisting people call ahead to find out. None. It's not "free enterprise". It' s not "capitalism". It's "There's a sucker born every minute."
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Maybe they are not published by the FBO because the city retained the right to change them daily if they want.
 
Clip4 said:
Maybe they are not published by the FBO because the city retained the right to change them daily if they want.
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Maybe? Are you seriously asserting that happens? With typical city bureaucracy (the epoxy that greases the wheels of progress)? Can you cite any documented examples?

And with web technology being what it is, that's still not hard.
 
jsstevens said:
OK, Have at it. But PUBLISH the fees ahead of time and ITEMIZE which parts are city and which parts are FBO.

There is simply no excuse for hiding all this stuff and insisting people call ahead to find out. None. It's not "free enterprise". It' s not "capitalism". It's "There's a sucker born every minute."
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Do you expect free parking when you drive downtown? They post the parking rates at the entrance of most lots and garages. Would you be satisfied if there was a sign on the ramp that had the rates? Do you research parking rates before you drive there?

I'm not trying to be snarky. There is a direct correlation. Most airports lose money. To begrudge revenue threatens the very existence of the place.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Do you expect free parking when you drive downtown? They post the parking rates at the entrance of most lots and garages. Would you be satisfied if there was a sign on the ramp that had the rates? Do you research parking rates before you drive there?

I'm not trying to be snarky. There is a direct correlation. Most airports lose money. To begrudge revenue threatens the very existence of the place.
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To be fair (and I'm trying to be) I can simply drive right past a garage with parking rates that seem to high. Not quite as practical for an airplane. Also, with how many of these FBOs are run, If I land, taxi in and then taxi out they will still charge me. I've never had a parking garage charge me to pull in, turn around and leave. (And yes, I've done that a time or two.)

Also to be clear, I'm not objecting to the fees. Charge what you want. That's free enterprise. But make the fees knowable and known before they are incurred. Let people choose. That's the free market.
 
jsstevens said:
Also to be clear, I'm not objecting to the fees. Charge what you want. That's free enterprise. But make the fees knowable and known before they are incurred. Let people choose. That's the free market.
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Oh, I totally get what you're saying. I wish the health care industry was held to the standard of making charges known before services are rendered. Enabling consumers to make informed decisions should be a universal concept -- and price is part of the decision matrix. Shouldn't matter what the industry.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Oh, I totally get what you're saying. I wish the health care industry was held to the standard of making charges known before services are rendered. Enabling consumers to make informed decisions should be a universal concept -- and price is part of the decision matrix. Shouldn't matter what the industry.
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Oh me too on the medical. And cell phones. And cable companies...
 
Most airports lose money. To begrudge revenue threatens the very existence of the place.
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City imposed fees feed the City, not the airport. But I understand your point.

-Skip
 
jsstevens said:
OK, Have at it. But PUBLISH the fees ahead of time and ITEMIZE which parts are city and which parts are FBO.

There is simply no excuse for hiding all this stuff and insisting people call ahead to find out. None. It's not "free enterprise". It' s not "capitalism". It's "There's a sucker born every minute."
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There are a few FBO managers/owners on here who've attempted to defend the practice but I've still yet to hear a real logical answer of why it's so impossible to post fees on their websites.
 
Here is what I don't understand, and I'm willing to listen to what the explanations are:

1) Taxes of various sorts fund hundreds of thousands of miles of city, state, and federal roads as transportation infrastructure around the country. I don't pay a fee to go on County Highway 52, or Interstate 35, or Aspen lane. We are talking about fairly scattered dribs and drabs of a mile of pavement, and maybe a couple miles of taxiway and apron that is maintained as transportation infrastructure around the country as airports. Why is there an expectation of a fee per use there, and not on the hundreds and hundreds of miles of road?

a) Is it that "everyone" doesn't get to use it (actually drive upon it), and thus won't use it? Everyone has access to its benefits, and there are hundreds of miles of roads that I will never drive upon.

b) Is it the tollway argument? Yes, there are tollways, but they are clearly marked, they are clearly priced, and there are (less-attractive) non-fee alternatives. If I don't want to pay the toll, I can take alternative routes that may not offer similar amenities (congestion, direction, time). Seems similar to a ramp situation; if you don't need a bathroom/pilot room/coffee - why not just a gate in the fence? You wanna pay a few bucks? Use the FBO and get the amenities.

c) Parking. Leaving a plane for a significant amount of time (6 hours? 12? overnight?) Seems like it is reasonable to charge a tie-down fee.

What am I missing?

Tim
 
Bonchie said:
There are a few FBO managers/owners on here who've attempted to defend the practice but I've still yet to hear a real logical answer of why it's so impossible to post fees on their websites.
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There is no logical answer. Period. The FBOs that engage in that practice have decided it's better to hide the fees and spring them on people rather than tell them ahead of time so they can decide if they'd rather go elsewhere.
 
bradg33 said:
There is no logical answer. Period. The FBOs that engage in that practice have decided it's better to hide the fees and spring them on people rather than tell them ahead of time so they can decide if they'd rather go elsewhere.
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That's right. And the free market hasn't required anything different.
 
172andyou said:
That's right. And the free market hasn't required anything different.
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I think there's a good argument that it's not really a truly "free market." A true free market requires that all participants have access to complete information; here that's certainly not the case. In certain locations, specific airports and FBOs have a bit of a stranglehold on the "market" for easy-access airports and in many cases they exploit that stranglehold by hiding fees, etc.
 
bradg33 said:
I think there's a good argument that it's not really a truly "free market." A true free market requires that all participants have access to complete information; here that's certainly not the case. In certain locations, specific airports and FBOs have a bit of a stranglehold on the "market" for easy-access airports and in many cases they exploit that stranglehold by hiding fees, etc.
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Uh, no. The free market demands no such thing. Quite the opposite, the free market can demand that transparency if it wants it. It, apparently, doesn't.

Your second point is closer. The free market does, however, require competition. Which is sorely lacking. It's not like a typical airport has five different vendors to choose from. There is usually just one, and nearly always two or less. And the budding businessperson can't just hang a shingle and open. There are obstacles to leap.
 
Competition would be nice but few GA airports have enough traffic to justify it. The only meaningful competition is between airports.

I have to imagine that FBOs are between a rock and a hard place relative to transparency. If one posts all their rates, the rate shoppers may tend to go where they hope prices may be lower but where rates aren’t posted. Of course the solution would be regulations that requires posting rates. And since state lines don’t mean much for a consumer in an airplane, it would require federal regulations if it were to be meaningful. Let’s work on that.
 
Bonchie said:
There are a few FBO managers/owners on here who've attempted to defend the practice but I've still yet to hear a real logical answer of why it's so impossible to post fees on their websites.
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They don't want to.
 
Bill Watson said:
Competition would be nice but few GA airports have enough traffic to justify it. The only meaningful competition is between airports.

I have to imagine that FBOs are between a rock and a hard place relative to transparency. If one posts all their rates, the rate shoppers may tend to go where they hope prices may be lower but where rates aren’t posted. Of course the solution would be regulations that requires posting rates. And since state lines don’t mean much for a consumer in an airplane, it would require federal regulations if it were to be meaningful. Let’s work on that.
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Perhaps rate shoppers will go elsewhere, but probably there will be a tipping point where the assumption is: if you don't publish, you're higher. It's that way car shopping now. And the unscrupulous will publish low fees but then have extra charges and ala carte items to run the fees up. Look at airline ticket pricing sites and car shopping sites to see how this plays out with some level of transparency.
 
How exactly is the OP proof of anything?

No source attribution. No evidence that it’s not an isolated document or even just made up.
 
Troska said:
What am I missing?
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Since there is no regulation about airports or FBOs posting their rates on their websites, they all choose individually whether to do it or not. As others have stated, if they perceive this hurts their business, they may start posting them. Otherwise, you can call ahead and ask.
 
Clip4 said:
Daily? No, but does it happen in cities with high profile annual events or high seasonal demand? Maybe?
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And then it's too hard to update the web site or even post a calendar with seasonal prices. Yep, I'm still thinking it's so people don't know until it's too late. Not sold on the too hard thing.
 
I don't begrudge anyone making a living and charging what the market will bear, but some of these FBO's take it to the extreme. Once you've landed it's too late, like ordering the "market price" dinner special and not asking the price before they take your order, once it's cooked it's too late. I tend to call any unfamiliar airport in advance to check fuel prices and fees, KEYW was a shocker and I cancelled my trip and flew Delta. KAVL isn't much better, but it's half of Key West and the only game in town or even within driving distance of Asheville! KSOP (Pinehurst) is high too, but they waive it with overpriced fuel!
 
IF the ramp fee is basically a tax being levied by the airport, it is not customary for businesses to publish local taxes. Car dealers don’t include sales tax when the advertise car prices, motels typically publish room rates exclusive of local room taxes, as do car rental companies.

FBOs do the same thing. No one has trouble finding their fuel price.
 
Not to mention the fact that in many (most?) cases, the land the airport sits on was given to the city by the federal government for public use, only as an airport. And, the city receives federal funds to maintain the thing.

I don't mind paying ramp fees, but like many here, I would like to know what they are and what the alternatives might be. Like, where can you go on the airport (if anywhere) without paying the FBO? The example I have given lately: my son visited me and we went for a short flightseeing trip. We were near Telluride, so I thought I would do a quick landing there to show him the airport environment, which is pretty impressive. I had been there before a few times and was charged a ramp fee for a 10 minute bathroom stop, fair enough. This time, we landed, taxied immediately back (showing him the cool real-time density altitude readout on the sign next to the taxiway) and as we prepared to depart, the FBO called and insisted we taxi 1/4 mile back to the FBO, to pay them. We had never even left the main taxiway.
 
Clip4 said:
IF the ramp fee is basically a tax being levied by the airport, it is not customary for businesses to publish local taxes. Car dealers don’t include sales tax when the advertise car prices, motels typically publish room rates exclusive of local room taxes, as do car rental companies.

FBOs do the same thing. No one has trouble finding their fuel price.
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Are you saying that all the ramp fees are local taxes? I thought it was necessary for the FBO to maintain the ramp spaces and facilities.
 
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I don't mind ramp fees at all. Everytime I land I provide a complementary tip of $100.
 
jsstevens said:
Are you saying that all the ramp fees are local taxes? I thought it was necessary for the FBO to maintain the ramp spaces and facilities.
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Does it matter if the airport charges the FBO ramp rent by the square foot and lets the FBO charge you or directly requires you to pay a ramp fee? Either way the airport is requiring operators to pay to support the airport. Some here think that someone should be anyone but me.
 
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Clip4 said:
Does it matter if the airport charges the FBO ramp rent by the square foot and lets the FBO charge you or directly requires you to pay a ramp fee? Either way the airport is requiring operators to pay to support the airport. Some here think that someone should be anyone but me.
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I’ve said in both this thread and the other that I support your right to charge what you want. I only object to those charges being unpublished. You seemed to be justifying not publishing because they were taxes and therefore unknowable ahead of time. So, no, I don’t expect you to run a non-profit. I do expect to be able to as easily find out your ramp fees as your fuel price (which does include tax, correct?)
 
Doesn't matter who sets the fees, or who keeps the money. Excessive, non-transparent ramp fees dissuade public access. For the big turbines, a $60 or $100 ramp fee is a big nothingburger when it costs $1000 or more per hour to operate the aircraft. For a GA flib like me and you, $60 is a big chunk of change, maybe a half-load of fuel.

Just a thought experiment: Does the city or FBO balance the books with ramp fees? Not likely. The fees are principally designed to drive away small GA aircraft. I'm pretty sure that airport operators make most of their income from fuel sales and if applicable fuel taxes, plus rental fees (hangar, overnight parking).

I buy fuel if I can or need at airports I use. I know how this works. But for recreational/non-commercial pilots, ramp fees are just punitive, and the volume of these fees can't be significant for the local operator. For an insignificant amount of income you buy a lot of bad will, and flies in the face of equitable public access. I wonder if these kinds of fees are thought up by non-aviation administrators who have no inkling of what GA is like. At our airport we are fortunate to have real pilots as member of our airport commission. It changes the conversation.

The U.S. is unique in that ordinary people can freely fly and have access to public aviation infrastructure. Let's try to keep it that way.
 
It would be the most transparent if all these things were rolled into the cost of fuel, which is easily shared. I guess it's not in the best interest of the FBO to be transparent.

I do recognize that this would only work if you regulated out all those other various fees, otherwise one airport may charge $1.00 less a gallon, but still have $100 in ramp fees, but doing that seems anti-capitalistic. So what's the answer? I guess what was argued above and just having all of the fees readily available, that way those of us who are concerned about an extra $50.00 in fees can know about it. But would that option in itself need to be regulated? Well, if we're going to the trouble of creating regulations, then maybe we could just do away with all the fees and the operator could bundle their profits into the price of fuel, which would be the most transparent option. How's that for circular.
 
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I don’t mind supporting airports or FBO,especially the little guys. I do however check for the fee schedule ,before landing there. I try to buy gas whenever I stop by an airport,during the 100 dollar Hamburg runs. Checking fees is part of my pre planning for long cross countries.
 
Clip4 said:
So you roll up to the ramp and you think you have the right to use the public ramp and gate free of charge if only Mr. Ripoff FBO wasn’t demanding egregious fees.

“(b) Ramp Fee: Any City controlled ramp related uses by Lessee that are not included in the Leased Premises shall be for public use and subject to a Ramp Fee, as established by the City. The Ramp Fee shall be set annually by the City for use of City controlled ramp. Lessee or sub lessee shall remit to the City seventy-five percent (75%) of all revenues received for use of City controlled ramp or equivalent charges within ten (10) calendar days following the end of the month in which the ramp was utilized, accompanied by an accounting of all City controlled ramp rental activity. Lessee shall retain the remaining twenty-five percent (25%) of such revenues as consideration for Lessee’s management of said City controlled ramp rental and collection of resulting revenues. The City retains the right to enter upon City controlled ramp at any time and to take an inventory of any aircraft parked on the City controlled ramp, as well as a right to audit Lessee’s or sublessee’s accounting of City controlled ramp rental activity. Lessee or sublessee cannot charge any fees for use of the City controlled ramp other than the Ramp Fee set by the City for use of City controlled ramp and cannot waive any fees set by the City and due to the City for use of City controlled ramp without City’s written approval. The calculated fuel flowage fee shall be due and payable by the 20th of the month in the month reported.”

So of that $25 you are bitching about, the FBO gets $6.25.



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Which airport?
 
Skip Miller said:
City imposed fees feed the City, not the airport. But I understand your point.

-Skip
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If city imposed fees are feeding the city and not the airport and if they have accepted FAA grants, they are violating conditions agreed to when they accepted the grant. The FAA gets very upset when the city milks the airport. Airport income has to be used for support of the airport.
 
Clip4 said:
IF the ramp fee is basically a tax being levied by the airport, it is not customary for businesses to publish local taxes. Car dealers don’t include sales tax when the advertise car prices, motels typically publish room rates exclusive of local room taxes, as do car rental companies.

FBOs do the same thing. No one has trouble finding their fuel price.
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Weak.
 
Graueradler said:
If city imposed fees are feeding the city and not the airport and if they have accepted FAA grants, they are violating conditions agreed to when they accepted the grant. The FAA gets very upset when the city milks the airport. Airport income has to be used for support of the airport.
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Fees can indeed go to the operating municipality but they must be applied to the Airport budget line. Our commission has had this discussion multiple times.
 
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