Thinking About a Boat

[docmirror]

Those are exactly the sort of reasons why we'll stick with this boat (forget about the purchase cost).

Actually we really like our boat at 23' with the cuddy cabin. It's the right size for many reasons. I was just joking around. But it is fun to look and dream, just like it's fun to browse Controller.

You is a smart, smart man. I shoulda never sold my 23' Seaswirl. That was the perfect trailer boat for us. Towed our little jet ski, easy on gas, easy to park, easy to trailer, full top and enclosure, good looking, safe. I miss that boat.

 

[gismo]

Simple test to start with would be to take a pair of plastic pliers (fuse pliers from home depot) and remove the spark plug wires one at a time with the engine running in its 5mph max mode. If you pull a wire and nothing changes that cylinder isn't running. Be very aware of the big "meat grinder" mounted on top of that engine when running with the cowling off.

That's not a good idea as the coils are likely to be damaged by the excessive voltage. A better option would be to start the engine with each plug wire shorted to ground one at a time and if it runs the same bogged down way you know that cylinder was dead.

This is very likely an ignition problem but it could also be carburetor trouble (stuck float valve etc) since each cylinder has it's own carb. If the transition from bogged to full power is very abrupt it's almost always an ignition problem.

One confuser is that when one or two cylinders go offline the ignition timing gets way out of whack so it really runs like crap.

 

[lowtimer]

That's not a good idea as the coils are likely to be damaged by the excessive voltage. A better option would be to start the engine with each plug wire shorted to ground one at a time and if it runs the same bogged down way you know that cylinder was dead.

This is very likely an ignition problem but it could also be carburetor trouble (stuck float valve etc) since each cylinder has it's own carb. If the transition from bogged to full power is very abrupt it's almost always an ignition problem.

One confuser is that when one or two cylinders go offline the ignition timing gets way out of whack so it really runs like crap.

That trick was shown to me by an instructor at a factory OMC outboard school about 20 years ago. I've done it hundreds of times without a problem.

 

[Henning]

That trick was shown to me by an instructor at a factory OMC outboard school about 20 years ago. I've done it hundreds of times without a problem.

Pulling wires off each plug with it running? That's been standard diagnostic technique for much longer than I've been alive. I can't even count how many times I've done it, never caused a problem for me either.

 

[docmirror]

Well, just because something has been done and the damage isn't apparent at the time, doesn't mean damage wasn't done. Think of a T-34 spar with a crack from repetitive stress. At some point, the stress overcomes the spars ability to withstand the load at it breaks.

Voltage spikes in high energy systems are actually very similar. The flyback voltage from the open circuit to the spark plug has no where to go except back down the line to the ignition coil, where it is dissipated into the coil insulation and then to the metal case/clamp. This breakdown of the insulating material inside the coil provides a path of lower resistance and allows leakage current to increase. At some point, the coil will fail prematurely.

Of course, ignition wires fail sometimes, and the voltage has to be dissipated somewhere. There is a certain amount of tolerance built into the insulation material, but repeated voltage stress will cause it to break down prematurely.

 

[Henning]

Yep, but the amount it gets from the occasional test is well within the allowable tolerance.

 

[docmirror]

Yep, but the amount it gets from the occasional test is well within the allowable tolerance.

I don't think you understood, or I failed to explain that repetitive stress on the insulation causes it to breakdown in a cumulative way. An insulating gel or shellac substrate has a specific dielectric property. As the energy doubles on the flyback of the voltage, that dielectric is quite suddenly insufficient to stop the electrons from breaching the material and being dissipated into the housing or clamp. When that happens, the dielectric property of the insulator is reduced. It changes it's mechanical and electrical properties. Yes, it can handle reverse current for a short time, but every spike into the coil causes damage. It won't take long until the insulating property is damaged enough to cause misfire under many conditions. Not something you want on a boat, or a plane.

 

[red4golf]

Nice, looks wood, if you have it in fresh water, keep rock salt in the bilge to keep it from rotting, and give the top sides and decks a good salt water bath several times a year. Rot only grows in wood boats in areas where fresh water stands.

Thanks, I love her. She is in the Puget Sound so I worry more about the birds dropping shells and clam meat on the deck. Can't forget the seals hanging out on deck and pulling at the vinyl until it all needs to be recovered………………….

 

[red4golf]

For stripping use a heat gun and a draw scraper. Sanding to wood always leaves it unfair. Keep a fine file with you to keep your scraper sharp. I usually have a 2-1/2", a 3/4" and a few detail pics and implements that I've made through time. Heat gun and a scraper to remove, then an easy sanding with long blocks with 2" adhesive paper smoothing it down to 120 grit.

Bright work that lasts a decade: base 3 coats of a clear "3 pack" poly type like Awl Grip (Do NOT use Awl Bright, it does not last) or Alexseal (my preferred, same guys who developed Awl Grip, it's their next Gen material, you can also use a very low viscosity clear epoxy, one that saturates, not coats. You could consider using GitRot if you have any black issues at the seams and joints, it's a nice low viscosity epoxy with a bio/fungicide in it.) Then I use 12+ coats of Epifanes old original original varnish (just did a project where I tried the new Epifanes + and Epifanes Poly products and was not impressed.). I will lay on a minimum of 8 coats before I touch it with sand paper. Varnish is self leveling so any error you make in one coat will be remediated some in the next. The object is to build as thick a layer as possible for UV protection, and the UV inhibitors break down. If you get too thick in a spot and it gators, or gets a sag, bake it with a hair dryer, let it sit a bit, the longer the better, but at least until it cools, and then use your draw scraper to scrape it down to level with the surroundings; Do NOT sand defects, it causes a 'ripple' in the finish, plus takes more work and drying time, or you go back down to the sealer. Remember to keep the scraper as sharp as possible by giving it a good sharpening on a stone regularly and dress with a fine file very frequently.

The first sanding I do at 8 coats with 220 and I take it down to where 2/3rds of the surface is sanded with the rest shiny dots evenly interspersed. Put another 2 coats on and take it to 90% sanded with 220 (always use the longest block that you can work a surface with practically).put on another 2 and 220 it just shy of 100%.

Now I topcoat and seal all the edges of that again with at least 3 coats of the clear 3 pack and that leaves me a hard shell, glass smooth finish that seals the varnish from oxidation and has a very dense filler in the pores of the wood giving not only a good bite for the finish, but also providing density and damage resistance to the top of the wood. You will have a very beautiful, very durable finish that with regular applications of Collenite 845 Insulator wax, will remain so for over a decade.

Great suggestions!

She needs some work from the last two rough winters and lack of time with the new baby in my house.

 

[Henning]

Thanks, I love her. She is in the Puget Sound so I worry more about the birds dropping shells and clam meat on the deck. Can't forget the seals hanging out on deck and pulling at the vinyl until it all needs to be recovered………………….

When you wash the decks, use buckets of salt water. One time I rowed out to my boat to go to bed, climb up into the cockpit, there's a 750lb bull sea lion sleeping there, climb back down, row around the front and go down the forward hatch lol.

 

[denverpilot]

Maybe but I think you'd need more then that. If you only had a few inches of clearance it'd be extremely difficult to get the trailer into position consistently.



Since he doesn't like his pool, I think he should just build a garage where the pool is and park it there

It's a boat. Just put it in the pool.

 

[Ted]

It's a boat. Just put it in the pool.

While the boat would fit in the pool, I'd have a few issues with the ramp, and then still need to find a place for the trailer.

 

[gismo]

Yep, but the amount it gets from the occasional test is well within the allowable tolerance.

And you know this how? On an engine with simple magnetos you're probably right but many CD ignition systems are quite capable of generating more open circuit voltage than the coil insulation can tolerate.

I remember seeing an OMC SB that warned against this practice on engines with electronic ignition back in the late 60's. Like Cowboy wrote, the damage is subtle and the result isn't likely to be obvious immediately. Once you've created an internal discharge in a coil the available voltage to the plugs is reduced enough that it may not be enough to spark under worse case conditions even though it appears to be working fine at the time. Shorting the spark out is a better way to accomplish the same thing.

 

[jesse]

And you know this how? On an engine with simple magnetos you're probably right but many CD ignition systems are quite capable of generating more open circuit voltage than the coil insulation can tolerate.

I remember seeing an OMC SB that warned against this practice on engines with electronic ignition back in the late 60's. Like Cowboy wrote, the damage is subtle and the result isn't likely to be obvious immediately. Once you've created an internal discharge in a coil the available voltage to the plugs is reduced enough that it may not be enough to spark under worse case conditions even though it appears to be working fine at the time. Shorting the spark out is a better way to accomplish the same thing.

My '98 Kawasaki jetski has three posts for the purpose of grounding the spark plug cables if you want to run it with one removed. If they went out of their way to add the posts it's probably fairly critical on it. I'm sure the degree of how critical it is varies from engine to engine.

 

[Henning]

And you know this how? On an engine with simple magnetos you're probably right but many CD ignition systems are quite capable of generating more open circuit voltage than the coil insulation can tolerate.

I remember seeing an OMC SB that warned against this practice on engines with electronic ignition back in the late 60's. Like Cowboy wrote, the damage is subtle and the result isn't likely to be obvious immediately. Once you've created an internal discharge in a coil the available voltage to the plugs is reduced enough that it may not be enough to spark under worse case conditions even though it appears to be working fine at the time. Shorting the spark out is a better way to accomplish the same thing.

Because it is done hundreds if not more times on a daily basis by factory trained techs, there are special tools made for pulling the wire off a running engine to keep from getting shocked. This really is not a problem beyond the theoretical.

 

[Bill]

Sterndrive 101 was [Re: Thinking About a Boat]

OK, I've never removed or opened up a sterndrive before, but now is the time!

I pulled the boat to winterize, and found this:

A break in the gasket between the outdrive and gimbal housing, and the gap is below the waterline of the boat. That probably explains the vibration we noticed on the last few outings of the season. I figure the u-joints and/or gimbal bearing are water damaged and trashed.

I figure while I'm in there I might as well replace both along with the bellows and shift cable. While the drive is off, I should also drop the lower and put in a new impeller. It's an Alpha one, anyting else I should look at while in there? I will buy the tool and check engine/drive alignment before putting it back together.

This should be fun, kinda. I know some of us are following the jetski thread, if there is interest, I can start a sterndrive thread and y'all can hold my beer and laugh at me as I muck about inside the sterndrive.

 

[Ted]

Bill, I'd be interested. Is that an Alpha One? I'll probably have to tear it apart eventually.

 

[Bill]

Bill, I'd be interested. Is that an Alpha One? I'll probably have to tear it apart eventually.

Yes, Alpha One, probably Gen II, but I have to check the serial number.

BreakOutAnotherThousand, but here's why we do it:

 

[Henning]

If it's been shaking a few hours, you'll probably also want to replace the drive coupler bolted to the flywheel, especially if it's over 5 years old.

 

[Bill]

If it's been shaking a few hours, you'll probably also want to replace the drive coupler bolted to the flywheel, especially if it's over 5 years old.

Three years old, shaking for probably 10hrs.

 

[Henning]

Three years old, shaking for probably 10hrs.

Yeah, do the coupler as well, the vulcanization between the metal and rubber has most likely been compromised and will break loose in the next 50-100 hrs. It's not a particularly expensive part and will save you a tow or slow trip in and another disassembly mid season.

 

[Bill]

will save you a tow or slow trip in and another disassembly mid season.

I'm all for that. Wintertime is the time to get 'er done. I *loathe* anything that takes me off the lake in-season.

 

[asechrest]

I'm game for following a sterndrive thread. Don't know that I'll be able to offer much help since I've only just become a Kawasaki jet ski 1995-vintage electrical box and component expert.

But I'd follow along with interest.

 

[lowtimer]

Re: Sterndrive 101 was [Re: Thinking About a Boat]

OK, I've never removed or opened up a sterndrive before, but now is the time!

I pulled the boat to winterize, and found this:

A break in the gasket between the outdrive and gimbal housing, and the gap is below the waterline of the boat. That probably explains the vibration we noticed on the last few outings of the season. I figure the u-joints and/or gimbal bearing are water damaged and trashed.

I figure while I'm in there I might as well replace both along with the bellows and shift cable. While the drive is off, I should also drop the lower and put in a new impeller. It's an Alpha one, anyting else I should look at while in there? I will buy the tool and check engine/drive alignment before putting it back together.

This should be fun, kinda. I know some of us are following the jetski thread, if there is interest, I can start a sterndrive thread and y'all can hold my beer and laugh at me as I muck about inside the sterndrive.

Yep, water in the shift cable, u-joints, and gimbal brg from that gskt leak.

You'll need an engine alignment bar and tool to install the gimbal brg. There's also a tool for the shift cable you can make if you have access to a welder if not it's another purchase.

 

[docmirror]

I'm all for that. Wintertime is the time to get 'er done. I *loathe* anything that takes me off the lake in-season.

Agree about the impulse coupling at the back of the engine. Check your rear motor mounts. I think there's a spec on rubber compression, or you can just shim it if needed to get it up to correct height to use the alignment bar.

If you take out the pinion or ring gear, sometimes getting them back in correct alignment is a hassle. That's one job I would send to the marine shop and let them set up the depth and lash. Inspect the upper bearings, and if they look ok, just clean and leave them alone.

Don't forget the bellows.

 

[Bill]

If you take out the pinion or ring gear, sometimes getting them back in correct alignment is a hassle. That's one job I would send to the marine shop and let them set up the depth and lash.

Yeah, everything I've read says opening up the upper is a job for a technician. It can take multiple assembly/disassembly cycles to get it shimmed properly and the tools are expensive.

Yeah, I will replace all the bellows and the water tube.

 

[Dav8or]

I have a Volvo Penta drive, but I would follow your stern drive thread.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, everything I've read says opening up the upper is a job for a technician. It can take multiple assembly/disassembly cycles to get it shimmed properly and the tools are expensive.

Yeah, I will replace all the bellows and the water tube.

If you have issues inside the leg, the best/cheapest way to deal with it I've found is to just get an exchange rebuilt unit and bolt it on.

 

[Bill]

If you have issues inside the leg, the best/cheapest way to deal with it I've found is to just get an exchange rebuilt unit and bolt it on.

Yup, I can get a rebuilt outdrive for ~$1750, but I'll bet the outdrive is still fine. I just need to replace the gimbal bearing, u-joints, bellows, and gaskets.

 

[Henning]

Yup, I can get a rebuilt outdrive for ~$1750, but I'll bet the outdrive is still fine. I just need to replace the gimbal bearing, u-joints, bellows, and gaskets.

Yep, also drain the lubes and inspect, if they look non milky, all your issues will be forward of the leg.

 

[Bill]

Yep, also drain the lubes and inspect, if they look non milky, all your issues will be forward of the leg.

Already drained the outdrive, no evidence of water in the oil. Now to see if the converse is true, no oil leaked from the upper into the bell housing.

 

[Ted]

Did the winterizing of the boat today. I opted to go for the "blow the water out with my air compressor" method. That seemed to work. I also then dumped some antifreeze in the lines that I had around anyway as an added precaution. We'll see how it works out.

Batteries were dead as doornails... because we forgot to turn off the battery switch when we used the boat last. Oops. They were dated 08 and 09 and were Duralast brand, so that's plenty old next year to replace them. We knew going in that we'd probably have to replace them anyway.

I couldn't find where the places were to check the oil on the outdrive. Any ideas for an Alpha One? So I couldn't see if the oil had water in it. But I did take a look at the bellows. It looks like there's two - a bottom one that has nothing going through it (so I'm assuming coolant/exhaust?) and that one was broken. The top one (which looks like it's for the driveshaft) isn't broken, but it also doesn't look to be in good shape. So, I probably should plan on replacing it before the season starts. I have no idea on the best way to go about this.

 

[Henning]

Do you check it in the Alpha or drain and refill it?

If it's drain and refill there's always a high and low screw for service.

 

[docmirror]

If I recall right, the lower screw is on the right side at the front of the lower bulge for the gear case. Locate the imaginary prop shaft, and follow that line forward, look on the right side for a screw inset. That's for an Alpha, I have the Bravo and mine is behind the prop in the hub area.

The top screw is definitely on the left side, about 3 inches down from the top of the gear case. Another inset screw.

Since these screws often suffer some corrosion just due to being in the water, I like to give them a sharp rap with a hammer before trying to remove. Some people just check it, some drain and refill. If I just had a normal year on the lake of maybe 15 hours of use, I would crank the lower screw and catch a few drips to look for water emulsion. If it looked good, I just checked the level at the top and left it alone.

 

[docmirror]

If you're gonna do the bellows, might as well do the water pump in the housing too. I would send this to the shop. Coordinate with a boat shop to do it this winter when they are slow. Call around and ask the price for the two bellows and the water pump. Get your drive number before calling. This is a pretty big job, but if you want to do it, you'll know how for the next time.

Boat shops see this job all the time, and they can get the drive service down to a short time. It can be a DIY job, but it's a pretty big, and messy job. Also, if you screw up and have a leak, you can only blame yourself. This is where a boat shop comes in useful.

 

[docmirror]

If the batt is deep cycle, before replacing it, charge it normally, and check the specific gravity of the cells after it's charged. Let it sit on wood or plastic, and not concrete for 2 days then check the electrolyte again with a hydrometer. If it hasn't gone down much, you can use it another year, just leave it on a float type charger over the winter. It'll get better with some more charge. Fill any cells that are low with distilled water(a little).

 

[lowtimer]

Did the winterizing of the boat today. I opted to go for the "blow the water out with my air compressor" method. That seemed to work. I also then dumped some antifreeze in the lines that I had around anyway as an added precaution. We'll see how it works out.

Batteries were dead as doornails... because we forgot to turn off the battery switch when we used the boat last. Oops. They were dated 08 and 09 and were Duralast brand, so that's plenty old next year to replace them. We knew going in that we'd probably have to replace them anyway.

I couldn't find where the places were to check the oil on the outdrive. Any ideas for an Alpha One? So I couldn't see if the oil had water in it. But I did take a look at the bellows. It looks like there's two - a bottom one that has nothing going through it (so I'm assuming coolant/exhaust?) and that one was broken. The top one (which looks like it's for the driveshaft) isn't broken, but it also doesn't look to be in good shape. So, I probably should plan on replacing it before the season starts. I have no idea on the best way to go about this.

Seeing as you live in OH I'd consider pulling the drive off and bringing it inside for the winter. This gives you a chance to see what issues might need to be addressed and all winter to take care of it inside in comfort. It is very easy to do, put shifter in fwd, pull hinge pin that goes between the trim rams, remove the 6 nuts securing drive to pivot hsg and pull it off. It has to come off to change the bellows, so might as well get it now. If you pull it off stuff some rags into the u-joint bellows and tape plastic over the exposed openings.

The water pump impeller is not a difficult job. People screw up indexing the shift rod to shift shoe when putting the lower and upper back together, but its not hard to avoid if you know what to look for. It is a good idea to pressure test the drive after assembly. The Iboats forum has a thread on making your own pressure tester. They also have some pretty cool do it yourself drive stands.

If you are going to leave the drive on the boat I'd go ahead and change the oil now. Use mercury or quicksilver (mercury with diff label) high performance gearlube or another high quality marine gearlube, this is not a place to try to save a few bucks. Also always replace the drain plug gaskets, a drive oil leak will get expensive fast.

 

[lowtimer]

If you have issues inside the leg, the best/cheapest way to deal with it I've found is to just get an exchange rebuilt unit and bolt it on.

Check out sterndrive engineering http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Complete.html

They have a 3 year "no fault" warranty, run it into a pile of rocks and they will fix/replace for you. A lot of dealers are badmouthing these units as it cuts into their drive rebuild income. I know a number of people running these units with no problems.

 

[Henning]

Check out sterndrive engineering http://www.sterndrive.cc/Mercruiser-Alpha-One-Gen-I-Complete.html

They have a 3 year "no fault" warranty, run it into a pile of rocks and they will fix/replace for you. A lot of dealers are badmouthing these units as it cuts into their drive rebuild income. I know a number of people running these units with no problems.

So these are new aftermarket, interesting. If they sell them at that price, with that warranty, you know there is a heck of a markup even at $1300. Seems like a good racket, errr business.

 

[lowtimer]

So these are new aftermarket, interesting. If they sell them at that price, with that warranty, you know there is a heck of a markup even at $1300. Seems like a good racket, errr business.

An instructor at a Mercury factory school told me they (Merc) can make gen II alphas for approx. $400 each.