Think twice before landing at military base...

I work on an Air Force base (civilian) and I actually asked a controller on base about me landing in an emergency. He said even then they would let me land there in an emergency. He was adamant about it. But said they would help me in all I need finding a place to set down. Seems odd, in a real emergency with no other options I'd likely take my fine and let the sp's have there fun.
 
So much for the theory that you avoid paperwork by not saying the 'E' word.

The story gives no indication that there was an emergency. If the pilot had falsely declared one, he'd have been in even more trouble. In particular, he might not have been acquitted (as he was) of the false-pretenses charge.
 
We've had lost student pilots and emergencies land, but it appears there is more to the story here. It appears his "emergency" was he was about to miss the meeting at the base.

What's silly is that he probably could have got permission if he'd planned ahead.
 
I've had authorization to land at Air Force and Army airfields in the past. The process isn't difficult, but it takes time. I assume the Navy is similar. There is some paperwork - a Hold Harmless agreement, an insurance form to be signed by your insurer - and you need to be a member of one of several categories (such as a military member, spouse, CAP, contractor on business with the government, etc.). You need to start it a couple months in advance and it results in a "Civil Aircraft Landing Permit".

Then, prior to departing for your flight, you generally need to get a PPR (Prior Permission Required) number from the base. This will be passed on to the tower and you may or may not have to tell it to them on initial contact so they can confirm you have authorization.

For larger aircraft, a PPR # gets things in motion for the rest of the base agencies - do the have the equipment to tow the plane? The right fuel? How much? Need hangar space? Is there enough room on the parking ramp that day? Follow me? Etc. For a light GA aircraft the same process is followed, but obviously not as much of a concern. (I remember the Follow Me truck rushing out to escort us to parking in a Cherokee at McGuire AFB, that was a laugh.) Depending on the level of services and in what capacity you're there, there might be fees involved.

By virtue of his military affiliation and the purpose for his visit, it likely would have been no problem for this Navy Reserve Captain to get a Civil Aircraft Landing Permit and a PPR if he planned ahead.

But (if the news report is to be believed) he apparently didn't, and decided to land at a military airport without approval by using his rank to deceive the enlisted tower controller. For his own convenience, not due to an emergency.

I don't understand the reason for the civil penalties, I thought this would just be handled through the military channels, but maybe as a reservist it's handled differently. But I'm actually for some type of sanctions, if for nothing else than an apparent abuse of power.
 
I don't understand the reason for the civil penalties, I thought this would just be handled through the military channels, but maybe as a reservist it's handled differently. But I'm actually for some type of sanctions, if for nothing else than an apparent abuse of power.

That is my point exactly. Even as a reservist, he is subject to the UCMJ. Should have been handled in-house.
 
As a retiree, I often land at military bases, all it takes is a phone call to the insurance company to have your policy faxed there and to fax a hold harmless agreement and the actual request. These are the DD 2400 series forms called Civil Aircraft Landing Permit or CALP. Each fall when my insurance is renewed, I go through the drill. When you land, you have to have the original copies for base ops.
 
I work on an Air Force base (civilian) and I actually asked a controller on base about me landing in an emergency. He said even then they would let me land there in an emergency. He was adamant about it. But said they would help me in all I need finding a place to set down. Seems odd, in a real emergency with no other options I'd likely take my fine and let the sp's have there fun.

Is the part I put in boldface what you actually meant to write?
 
I work on an Air Force base (civilian) and I actually asked a controller on base about me landing in an emergency. He said even then they would let me land there in an emergency. He was adamant about it. But said they would help me in all I need finding a place to set down. Seems odd, in a real emergency with no other options I'd likely take my fine and let the sp's have there fun.

Hopefully you're saying this controller WOULD authorize you to land in the event of an emergency. I'm sure the AF uses the same policy that we had in the Navy / Marines in that emergency service will be provided to any aircraft upon request. We weren't even authorized to ask the aircraft if they had a Civilian Aircraft Landing Permit until after landing.

Civilian aircraft land at military facilities all the time during emergencies. It's really a non event. Had a DC-9 land at Miramar in 1999 when I was there. Engine crapped out on take off from Lindbergh and made an immediate right turn to land at NKX rwy 6. Landing clearance was definitely not withheld by the tower controller. Think he cleared them go land on any available runway.
 
That is my point exactly. Even as a reservist, he is subject to the UCMJ. Should have been handled in-house.

I am wondering if maybe he is a reservist, but was not actually on reserve duty during this event. So maybe, for instance, he's a reservist, but his day job is as a contract simulator instructor (or a USAA bank representative, or a Lockheed employee or something like that), and he was presenting or attending this conference in that capacity. In other words, not on military orders at the time and therefore not in a military status.

I don't know how they would handle that, if that was the case, which granted is a lot of "ifs".
 
Regardless. He had business on base, and that's the main prereq for a landing permit...if you plan ahead and make the request ahead of time.
 
When I was in the Air National Guard in the 60's, I was allowed to fly in to the base and park near a rear fence near the car parking lot.

Also the parade grounds of Camp Rilea, during summer camp.

I also flew the base commander and his son out an AF fishing camp on Lake Iliamna in my Cessna 185 floatplane. I think we were supposed to be on maneuver and I'm sure the statute of limitations is over.
 
A few years back some CAP guy landed at an AFB due to some emergency, had to take the plane apart and ship it on a truck.

That sounds fishy to me. CAP is part of the AF and their planes do land at AFB's on official business. I don't see why they'd make them truck it out.
 
ok so here's another one for you. What if someone lands there by mistake? Miramar is right next to Mongomery field, and I've heard many a story of people trying to land at Miramar by mistake because it's much more obvious and the runways point in the same general direction. I'll admit, my first trip to Montgomery with my instructor I had called the tower for landing clearance, gotten it, and was looking for the field when I saw what I thought was Montgomery and started to turn towards it. My instructor sat there smiling for a couple minutes, then took the controls before I busted the Bravo airspace, pointed the nose down and suddenly I saw my mistake. I've seen news reports of military pilots landing at civilian airfields by mistake, surely it happens the other way as well.
 
That sounds fishy to me. CAP is part of the AF and their planes do land at AFB's on official business. I don't see why they'd make them truck it out.

I suspect that the emergency resulted in a non-airworthy aircraft and trucking it out was preferable to repairing on the field.
 
That sounds fishy to me. CAP is part of the AF and their planes do land at AFB's on official business. I don't see why they'd make them truck it out.

While CAP does fly some AF missions and does use military bases on official business (not just AFBs), it is not part of the AF. It's a 501(c)(3) corporation.
 
The controller did clear him to land, even without his declaring an emergency.

And there was no emergency to declare. Bad weather at your destination does not by itself constitute an emergency. You just divert.

So if he'd declared an emergency, it would have been under false pretenses, which would have gotten him in even more trouble than the $1500 fine he received.

That's PIC right to determine when to declare. End of that discussion as far as I'm concerned.

Agree though as it stood, he is guilty of trespassing.
 
Probably not much impact on career. He is already an O-6 in the reserves. He obviously isn't going to make flag, but not going to be reduced in rank either. Probably have an ugly letter in his record which isn't going to mean a whole lot (unless he really had a shot at flag). Worst thing would be forced retirement from the reserves.

I suppose the FAA could take action on his certificate, but I have no idea if they will.

Controller cleared him to land. This is squarely in the PPR/ Trespassing on Federal Property arena
 
While CAP does fly some AF missions and does use military bases on official business (not just AFBs), it is not part of the AF. It's a 501(c)(3) corporation.

That doesn't sound quite right. If it was not part of the AF, then why is every aspect of the CAF governed by an AF Instruction?
 
Controller cleared him to land. This is squarely in the PPR/ Trespassing on Federal Property arena

Not necessarily. As a certificated pilot, he should have known that wasn't authorized in a non- emergency situation and he used his rank to game the system. I do believe the FAA could take action on his certificate if they wanted to.
 
That doesn't sound quite right. If it was not part of the AF, then why is every aspect of the CAF governed by an AF Instruction?

By law, CAP is a civilian auxiliary of the AF. Its status as a corporation does not change that.
 
That doesn't sound quite right. If it was not part of the AF, then why is every aspect of the CAF governed by an AF Instruction?

CAF and CAP are different….

CAP is in many respects paramilitary. It has "rank," but it means nearly nothing. It has "regulations," but in any other group, they would be called "bylaws." It also has three classes of missions, only one of which has any relation to the Air Force. When CAP assists the local sheriff in an urban search, for example, that has nothing to do with the Air Force.

It's far short of "every aspect."

CAP has two governing statutes from Congress. One does call them a civilian auxiliary of the AF. The other says rather explicitly that CAP is not a military organization. More specifically, 10 USC 9441(a)(2) says:

Except as provided in section 9442 (b)(2) of this title, the Civil Air Patrol is not an instrumentality of the Federal Government for any purpose.

The purposes of CAP are described in 36 USC 40302. Only one of them is related to the Air Force.
 
CAF and CAP are different….



CAP is in many respects paramilitary. It has "rank," but it means nearly nothing. It has "regulations," but in any other group, they would be called "bylaws." It also has three classes of missions, only one of which has any relation to the Air Force. When CAP assists the local sheriff in an urban search, for example, that has nothing to do with the Air Force.

I meant CAP.

They may not be a military organization, but they are a program that is administered by the AF regardless of what their missions are.
 
By law, CAP is a civilian auxiliary of the AF. Its status as a corporation does not change that.

Exactly. Just like the Coast Guard Auxiliary is administered by the USCG, the CAP is an auxiliary if the AF.
 
I meant CAP.

They may not be a military organization, but they are a program that is administered by the AF regardless of what their missions are.

Recall the context. It was said that CAP is "Air Force," so presence on a military base is allowed.

That's not correct. Presence on military bases is only automatically allowed for operational reasons related to an Air Force mission. Other than that, the rules are identical as for civilian operators. Official business only -- and only when civilian airports are not feasible -- and prior permission required. Even in corporate aircraft.
 
Camp Pendleton MCAS is right on the other side of the hill as KOCN . Both runways were parallel and about a half mile apart or so...maybe a little more. We used to get people landing all the time at the air station. The riot act and a get outa here before I lock you up in the brig was about all they got.

I used to do low approaches into CamPen all the time.....but I also knew the controllers. A quick call and we were cleared in, then depart to OCN VOR to hold and then the ILS into Crq. ....good times.
 
A close friend of mine, a Navy pilot, had to divert into an AF field, (long runways)....mind you he was flying an F-18, with "US Navy" on the side, in full uniform (flight suit), and diverted due to a warning light or something, not full bore emergency but "we probably should land and check this out". Gets cleared to land by tower (he told them the reason for the unplanned landed etc) and MP/SP's meet him and gave him a hard time. Had to fill out a bunch of paperwork and "articulate" why he landed etc etc

I think his commander had to call the AF Base #2 in charge or something also.

This was just a few years ago, say 2009.

So....
 
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A close friend of mine, a Navy pilot, had to divert into an AF field, (long runways)....mind you he was flying an F-18, with "US Navy" on the side, in full uniform (flight suit), and diverted due to a warning light or something, not full bore emergency but "we probably should land and check this out". Gets cleared to land by tower (he told them the reason for the unplanned landed etc) and MP/SP's meet him and gave him a hard time. Had to fill out a bunch of paperwork and "articulate" why he landed etc etc

I think his commander had to call the AF Base #2 in charge or something also.

This was just a few years ago, say 2009.

So....

Not saying I don't believe you, but as a 12 year Marine Corps MP, I question the validity of the facts imparted to you. Any military aircraft can land at any military's installation .....period. I think your buddy might have left out some details.
 
Not saying I don't believe you, but as a 12 year Marine Corps MP, I question the validity of the facts imparted to you. Any military aircraft can land at any military's installation .....period. I think your buddy might have left out some details.

Back in the day, SAC might just have disagreed with you...
 
What's a long runway? We had over 12,000 ft of runway at NBC and were # 3 divert for the Space Shuttle. No reason for a Navy / Marine aircraft to divert to an AF runway especially since a lot of their emergencies they take the cable anyway. I think a lot of info here is being exaggerated or you didn't get the full story.
 
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yeah I don't know, wasn't there. I don't know if there is "no reason" for a Navy aircraft to divert to an AF runway.

Again, wasn't there and you know what I know at this point.
 
Not saying I don't believe you, but as a 12 year Marine Corps MP, I question the validity of the facts imparted to you. Any military aircraft can land at any military's installation .....period. I think your buddy might have left out some details.


Yup, this happens. When I was a schoolhouse IP at Tyndall AFB (08-10), I diverted to Moody. The cops came up asking for our orders and PPRs, they didn't understand what a divert was... Ugh. Pain in the @$$.
 
Yup, this happens. When I was a schoolhouse IP at Tyndall AFB (08-10), I diverted to Moody. The cops came up asking for our orders and PPRs, they didn't understand what a divert was... Ugh. Pain in the @$$.

Evil, we have folks on this board who will immediately not believe your story. You "must be leaving something out". :rolleyes:
 
Not saying I don't believe you, but as a 12 year Marine Corps MP, I question the validity of the facts imparted to you. Any military aircraft can land at any military's installation .....period. I think your buddy might have left out some details.

Don't know. You might tell the AF SP's that, regarding Navy planes landing at their field.

I don't know, wasn't there. Thank you for your service by the way.
 
Yup, this happens. When I was a schoolhouse IP at Tyndall AFB (08-10), I diverted to Moody. The cops came up asking for our orders and PPRs, they didn't understand what a divert was... Ugh. Pain in the @$$.

That's crazy. AF has some strange policies. I don't know how many times I've seen aircraft divert to bases I've worked at in the Marines. The MPs aren't even in the loop. We inform them for an emergency when we pull the crash phone but they have no idea for a normal divert. PPR isn't even a security issue. It's just to give a heads up to the transient ramp to make sure there's space and service available.
 
I meant CAP.

They may not be a military organization, but they are a program that is administered by the AF regardless of what their missions are.


Incorrect. CAP has a BoD upon which USAF sits and has significant influence, but is neither under UCMJ nor direct USAF administration.

USAF is tasked with *auditing* CAP by Congress who provides a completely separate and non-military budget for CAP. That budget flows-through USAF but cannot be diverted to other USAF projects.

CAP Regulations are not written by USAF. USAF only audits CAP for compliance.

USAF provides liaison officers at the National and sometimes State levels but has been reorganizing that structure over the last few years. CAP has bounced around from Training Command to various other USAF org charts and unless something changed, was headed for the same overlying command structure as Guard units.

Effectively the only people who need to know or care are upper command levels in CAP so they know who they're talking to and why, if approved by National. But other than that, for all intents and purposes, CAP writes its own Regs and is simply audited by USAF who can temporarily turn off the money spigot for problems seen. That's close enough in a nutshell.

There's more to it including formal MOUs, etc. An example is use of NTIA frequencies instead of FCC ones. That's via an MOU.

Congress could just as easily declare Earnst & Young do all the auditing and hire a private contractor for operations evaluations if they chose to do so.

CAP has to self-insure day to day non-mission activity for example. You're not a Federal employee and you're only covered by Federal insurance when you're authorized and qualified to be working on a live USAF mission, for example. And here, CAP has flown a lot more hours this year as a State entity under State government than USAF.

A somewhat workable analogy exists in wild land fire fighting. You can both be an employee of a City FD and working a wild land fire under USFS and their qualifications. Another way to look at it is that USAF is a customer of CAP as well as its auditor. Strange but true. In States where CAP has a dual-hatted command structure and is also a State agency, like here, CAP National sets a price for the State to pay for use of aircraft. State can call a mission, pay the bills, and USAF will have virtually no role in it other than to audit results. MOUs between Counties and the State mean that Counties and even municipalities can request missions. There are strict rules about those missions however, including CAP personnel are not deputized law enforcement and can't act as such, for one example.

This isn't even 1/2 of it. If you're bored I can get you in touch with a former CAP Wing level Legal Counsel. They attend long sessions about the legal relationships at conferences. "Auxiliary" means about as much as a drop of pee off of a bridge into the Mississippi when it comes to the actual legal relationships.
 
Not saying I don't believe you, but as a 12 year Marine Corps MP, I question the validity of the facts imparted to you. Any military aircraft can land at any military's installation .....period. I think your buddy might have left out some details.

That's not true. Even AF planes can't land without a PPR if the AF base is notamed PPR only unless it's an emergency.
 
That's not true. Even AF planes can't land without a PPR if the AF base is notamed PPR only unless it's an emergency.

Which I find hilarious. Diming out their own people. Base Ops calling the SPs? "We've got two AF F-15s on the ramp who diverted for weather and they don't have a PPR. Might wanna get out here and check them out."

I flown into AF bases all over the world and never had a security issue. Looking back, I guess it's a good thing I didn't have to divert without a PPR!
 
To land a civilian aircraft at a military base, one must file DD forms 2400, 2401, and 2402, apply 30 days in advance, and confirm 24 hours before. In practice, the 30 day thing is usually waived if you have to be there on short notice. .It''s also possible to get a blanket permission -- I was at one time cleared to land at any naval station east of the Mississippi for an entire year -- god knows why.

The process is actually easy -- have an onsite job to do there (not a just a marketing call), have your insurance agent fax some info, and spend maybe a half hour filling out and faxing some forms. Someone who just pops in without proof of insurance and a hold harmless agreement is exposing the facility to potential liability as well as raising security issues. Given that the base was his eventual destination, diverting there didn't fool anyone. And yeah -- don't pull rank on ATC -- military or civilian.
 
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