The truth of being maried w/ kids exposed....

[Ted]

Neither my wife nor I ever wanted kids, and I got the snip-snip a few years ago to prevent any mistakes. I always make the joke that I will die cold and alone, and someone responded once and said there are plenty of people with kids that die cold and alone. I understand why people want kids, and people with kids understand why we don't want them. My niece and nephew are getting everything once we pass to the great litter box in the sky, and I remind them all the time they have to be nice to us or else they are out of the will. So far it seems to be working.

I think the idea of "I want kids so I have someone to take care of me when I'm old" is one of the dumbest reasons people make for having kids. There's no guarantee that just because you have children that they will support or care for you when you're old. The trend these days is that the kids just put you in a retirement/nursing home. Well, you can do that yourself without any kids, you just might need to do it a bit ahead of time. My grandmother made the decision to move to a retirement community on her own that had a built-in nursing wing. When she fell and broke her leg they moved her to nursing and she never went back to unassisted living after that.

The fact that she had kids didn't ultimately mean much. My mom went down to see her about 4x/year in those days for maybe a week at a time. My uncle (my grandmother's son) went less. My cousin who lived local to her went the most often, but she was miserable and essentially alone for those last few years as her brain decayed. There were some nice looking pictures that were taken when we all gathered for her birthday once a year, but it was a miserable existence for her. The folks who lived in unassisted living never went to go visit their friends who had gone to nursing, which I thought was stupid. They didn't want to see what was likely to come of them, but what goes around comes around - and when it was their turn, I'm sure nobody visited them, either.

I always felt sorry for my grandmother, but as unhappy as she was she was also too stubborn to stop breathing. Finally one day, her body moved on.

 

[Fallsrider]

All depends on the attitudes of the people going in. My aunt's brother-in-law knew my aunt's sister for 2 weeks before proposing, they got married shortly thereafter, and were married for 50 years.

Not quite that fast for us, but we had our first date on October 16th, got engaged on January 15th, and married that following Memorial Day weekend. 19 years and loving life together.

I always wanted kids. I have a 24 year old daughter from a previous marriage who is married herself and doing very well. And I have a 12 year old son, as well. To me it has been one of the great joys of life to bring kids into this world and raise and teach them. Fun times together as family.

Vacations are definitely different with and without kids, though. It is a lot of fun to leave the kids with grandparents and go off by yourselves for a few days.

 

[overdrive148]

My wife hit 8 months today.

 

[Swampfox201]

For our honeymoon the wife and I took a trip on the cruise ship Ecstasy. 20 years later we went on the same ship with our 4 kids. There was no ecstasy on trip number 2


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lachlan]

BINGO. Can't rep this post enough. My personal favorite is the part-time divorced parents and their embedded mid-month vacations from the child(ren), casting aspersions on us fatigued full-timers without reprieve because we're a bit "tight" on the social life, to use a wide euphemism. Ditto for the slacker parents who downplay the energy and monetary expense of children, because they straight slack off for 18 years, then act shocked and chagrined when people tell them their kids grew up to be drains on society.





100%. I fully acknowledge having more than one child in my present circumstances would make it financially impossible to retain ownership of my airplane. I've never had compunction addressing that nuance. The most vociferous vitriol I've ever experienced on that topic has been from the multi-kid households, not the childless crowd. Which surprised me at first, until I began to understand the psychology of the pedia-centric. A lot of spite for single-child couples coming from that crowd. Again something I admit I would have thought would come from the DINKs first. Not to say DINKs can't and are in fact often quite misopedic, but they're equal opportunity haters when it comes to the question of n=1 child households. Aka they're intellectually honest and consistent, whereas the multi-child houses can be quite hypocritical on that front.




That's a false dichotomy. Just because I decided not to follow some Bible-driven version of family planning (aka let the invisible man in the sky "tell me" when to stop impregnating my wife and racking up the dependents count) doesn't mean I'm gonna short the one kid I do have the funds for the proverbial cancer treatment because that would get in the way of my airplane upgrade. Good bad or indifferent, line items affect the ledger, and dependents are no different. If I have more, there's less left over to cover. For multi-child households to get sanctimonious and assert True Scotman fallacies on single-child or no-child households goes beyond the pale for me.

No true Scotsman would let this post go unanswered, laddie, so here it is. My wife and I decided that we were not going to try to have kids for the sole purpose of procreating. If we did, we did, if not, no one was gonna be disappointed. Then one day we were blessed with turning 40 and still remaining childless! And life has been grand without children. We’re both certain it would have been grand with kids, too, but life is just how we imagined it. As far as caring whether or not other people have children, though, well... we don’t. Don’t care if you like broccoli or denim jackets, electric lawn mowers or frozen daiquiris. Live your own life and stop worrying about what other people think, and stop dragging the Scots into your drama.

 

[overdrive148]

Most parents are insanely stupid about human biology. A good example is the never-ending drive to get kids to eat vegetables. It is really reasonable that kids don't want to eat vegetables, they're calorie poor and kids need all the calories they can get. Sweeten them a bit and kids will eat them just fine. I doubt this has ever occurred to any parent in the history of time.

I can't imagine I would ever literally sugar coat something unpleasant for my kid.

 

[steingar]

I can't imagine I would ever literally sugar coat something unpleasant for my kid.

My point proven.

 

[Sam D]

No true Scotsman would let this post go unanswered, laddie, so here it is. My wife and I decided that we were not going to try to have kids for the sole purpose of procreating. If we did, we did, if not, no one was gonna be disappointed. Then one day we were blessed with turning 40 and still remaining childless! And life has been grand without children. We’re both certain it would have been grand with kids, too, but life is just how we imagined it. As far as caring whether or not other people have children, though, well... we don’t. Don’t care if you like broccoli or denim jackets, electric lawn mowers or frozen daiquiris. Live your own life and stop worrying about what other people think, and stop dragging the Scots into your drama.

This is terrific. I feel bad for couples who focus so tightly on having kids that it seems to inhibit their ability to do such. Lots of stories that go: couldn’t have kids, so adopted, then had more kids.

 

[Fiveslide]

I think the idea of "I want kids so I have someone to take care of me when I'm old" is one of the dumbest reasons people make for having kids.

If I ever need to be taken care of, it will not be by my son. I'll never expect him to care for me. I'm pretty sure my mother, father and wife feel the same way. For me, it will be a nursing home or take one last sail on the Atlantic and "fall" overboard. I think I'd actually prefer the latter.

Sadly, my wife's parents see no shame in being a burden upon us. They're a needy sort, been draining us of money and time since we got married. We don't talk to her father anymore. My wife and I both agree that he's a useless ******* and don't know if we'll ever be able to let him back in our lives, he's had enough chances. He always finds a line to cross. We paid his first month's rent and deposit for the place he lives now, said call someone else next time. We put our own goals and finances on hold for far too long helping him.

Her mother is needy, can't seem to do anything outside of normal daily living for herself, but can now support herself financially. She is actually grateful for the help we do provide, which is stuff like home maintenance and car maintenance. Just time and effort, she tries to repay kindness.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I can't imagine I would ever literally sugar coat something unpleasant for my kid.

Wait until your toddler wants pizza, but you've already started cooking lasagna. Lasagna is now referred to as "pizza noodles" in our house to sugar-coat that we weren't having pizza.

 

[MuseChaser]

Before I was married or had kids, I always viewed the inquiries as to when I was going to get married, and then inquiries as to when my wife and I were going to have kids, as compliments.. I was flattered folks thought that I'd make a good husband, and then that we'd be good parents. I've tried, and still try, to live up those expectations. I can't speak for the motivation behind those inquiries in other families, but personally, when I ask those questions (and I very occasionally do), I ask them because I think highly of the people I'm asking, and that's all. It matters not to me what people do, as long as they don't do harm nor negatively affect my ability to raise my kids and live my family life in the way I wish to. Perhaps viewing inquiries in that fashion will help "soften the blow" when they do surface to those of you who have no interested in being married or parents. It's a compliment, not an insult based upon your life choices.

 

[Rgbeard]

I think the idea of "I want kids so I have someone to take care of me when I'm old" is one of the dumbest reasons people make for having kids.

Yeah, my parents don't live anywhere near me, and when they need someone to take care of them, it won't be me.

If we'd have had children, I'd expect them to be up-to-their elbows in life and not wanting to take time out to wipe their old man's butt.

 

[Ted]

Before I was married or had kids, I always viewed the inquiries as to when I was going to get married, and then inquiries as to when my wife and I were going to have kids, as compliments.. I was flattered folks thought that I'd make a good husband, and then that we'd be good parents. I've tried, and still try, to live up those expectations. I can't speak for the motivation behind those inquiries in other families, but personally, when I ask those questions (and I very occasionally do), I ask them because I think highly of the people I'm asking, and that's all. It matters not to me what people do, as long as they don't do harm nor negatively affect my ability to raise my kids and live my family life in the way I wish to. Perhaps viewing inquiries in that fashion will help "soften the blow" when they do surface to those of you who have no interested in being married or parents. It's a compliment, not an insult based upon your life choices.

The same question can be asked by 5 different people with 5 different intents. In your case, perhaps a compliment. In the case of others, pressure because they want to play with your eventual kids when they're cute and hand them back when the diaper needs to be changed. Another may be disapproving of your lifestyle choice and thinking you need to settle down and stop having fun.

Then there's how it's received, which is not necessarily the same as the intent. I think you're pretty unique in receiving those questions as compliments. In some cases, asking can be hurtful. Example: Someone who's been through a messy breakup (or may be in a relationship but things aren't good), or a couple who has fertility issues and has been unable to have kids even though they want to.

I don't ask the question. Better to have a conversation with the people and the topic may come up at an appropriate time.

 

[DaleB]

We never gave anyone the chance to ask when we'd get married and have kids. Married at 18, kids at 19, still married 40 years later.

They did ask if we were nuts. I don't have a good answer.

 

[Rgbeard]

If I ever need to be taken care of, it will not be by my son. I'll never expect him to care for me. I'm pretty sure my mother, father and wife feel the same way. For me, it will be a nursing home or take one last sail on the Atlantic and "fall" overboard. I think I'd actually prefer the latter.

Sadly, my wife's parents see no shame in being a burden upon us. They're a needy sort, been draining us of money and time since we got married. We don't talk to her father anymore. My wife and I both agree that he's a useless ******* and don't know if we'll ever be able to let him back in our lives, he's had enough chances. He always finds a line to cross. We paid his first month's rent and deposit for the place he lives now, said call someone else next time. We put our own goals and finances on hold for far too long helping him.

Her mother is needy, can't seem to do anything outside of normal daily living for herself, but can now support herself financially. She is actually grateful for the help we do provide, which is stuff like home maintenance and car maintenance. Just time and effort, she tries to repay kindness.

My parents have tried to put us in awkward positions many times, but I've never allowed it.

Give a mouse a cookie, ya know, and it'll come back asking for a glass of milk.

The fact that we've got a dysfunctional and damaged relationship helps a lot in this case, oddly enough.

I send them restaurant gift cards for holidays.

 

[Fiveslide]

My parents have tried to put us in awkward positions many times, but I've never allowed it.

Give a mouse a cookie, ya know, and it'll come back asking for a glass of milk.

The fact that we've got a dysfunctional and damaged relationship helps a lot in this case, oddly enough.

I send them restaurant gift cards for holidays.

When we first married I tolerated it because her little brother was still in highschool. He needed a roof over his head and light bill to be paid. Her dad stole and sold some of my stuff. He was unemployed for three years. It was horrible for her little brother.

The day he shipped out to boot camp, her parents separated and her dad stole some more of my crap to pawn. We cut him off, talked to him occasionally for a few years. Let him back in our lives when we had our kid thinking he might change. It didn't take him long to ruin it again.

It's a good thing her little brother enlisted, he was starting to act like his dad.

My parents aren't perfect, but they've not once had to be bailed out of jail, stolen from us or asked us to pay their bills.

 

[SCCutler]

I'm quite certain my parents would've been happier without me.

Ted:

I think you know, but I’ll say it now to be clear, that there are so very many people who cherish the fact of your presence in their lives. Count me among their number.

I claim you as family, if you’ll have me.

There are others of similar import to me, and I am blessed to know you all.

 

[Matthew]

Might have been my mom that put it into words most recently, but it’s an observation I’ve made over the years: “If you go through life trying not to be a jerk, you’ll have friends.”

 

[Ted]

Ted:

I think you know, but I’ll say it now to be clear, that there are so very many people who cherish the fact of your presence in their lives. Count me among their number.

I claim you as family, if you’ll have me.

There are others of similar import to me, and I am blessed to know you all.

Aww shucks, Spike. You know damn well you're family to us, and we're blessed to have you in our lives.

It should be noted that I wasn't making the above comment with any sort of "Woe is me" expressed or implied, it's just a statement of fact. My parents shouldn't have been parents, but as I've said "God looked at my mother and said 'Something useful needs to come out of you!' And so I did."

 

[mmaclauchlan]

Seeing how happy and goofy my two young boys are lets me know I'm doing something right. I'm grateful to say if I'm half the father my dad is to me, my kids will grow up to be good men. If so, I'll die in peace when I'm old and grey knowing some good part of me (and my ancestors) will carry on for the good of the world, regardless how big or small it may be.

Also, my dad took me up in a Cessna when I was 5. I'll soon be able to pass on that incredible gift to my boys. How friggin cool is that?!

 

[weilke]

I think the idea of "I want kids so I have someone to take care of me when I'm old" is one of the dumbest reasons people make for having kids. There's no guarantee that just because you have children that they will support or care for you when you're old. The trend these days is that the kids just put you in a retirement/nursing home. Well, you can do that yourself without any kids, you just might need to do it a bit ahead of time.

Just because many kids fail to take care of their parents it does not make the concept invalid. 'Taking care' does not necessarily require the kids to provide the physical labor of nursing care, for the most part it is just being there and supporting them. Also means keeping an eye on nursing home administrators and keeping the scamsters and insurance salesmen away. A friend of my parents who helped them to get around by driving and running errands just passed away in his 60s. No kids, far from home and the only reason he was found the same day was because he didn't show up to drive my dad to a physical therapy appointment.
I have other relatives who are growing old without kids and grandkids. Unless they are tied into a network of nieces and nephews that they managed to hold close, it gets pretty lonely when you are old. Money makes it only slightly less miserable. A court appointed guardian is not going to go the extra mile to make sure you are taken care of the way your kids will if you didn't end up estranged from them. .

 

[Flybuddy]

Got re-married when I was 40 (wife 28)..I had a 17 year old I raised myself and new wife wanted kids. Working 2 intense jobs, I was so-so on doing a do-over but eventually I conceded and we had one boy 2 years later and one girl 10 years later. Found myself retired at age 50 with a one year daughter that I was with full time (wife still works). In hindsight, it was worth all of the hard work. Son recently graduated college, had great job at aerospace company waiting and owns his own house already as well as a pilots license. Daughter, straight A student and very talented (vid below).
Point worth taking away is that If I decided NOT to have children on 2nd marriage I might very well have been posting here how great life is without kids when the opposite has proven true for me.

 

[Cooter]

I think the idea of "I want kids so I have someone to take care of me when I'm old" is one of the dumbest reasons people make for having kids. There's no guarantee that just because you have children that they will support or care for you when you're old.

Family relationships are not a mathematical formula or an investment scheme. That’s a very sterile way of looking at it. The goal is not to manipulate some quantitative return.

In one way I agree with what you said, approaching parenting as retirement security is foolish. But I kind of doubt that’s how it was meant to be understood.
When kids are raised properly it’s right to expect that love and devotion to be reciprocated later in life. That’s the essence of family and community. I’ve never actually considered the idea of my kids taking care of me, it’s too early for that. But one way I’ll be able to gauge my success in parenting later in life will be by observing their willingness to do so.

 

[Ted]

Just because many kids fail to take care of their parents it does not make the concept invalid. 'Taking care' does not necessarily require the kids to provide the physical labor of nursing care, for the most part it is just being there and supporting them. Also means keeping an eye on nursing home administrators and keeping the scamsters and insurance salesmen away. A friend of my parents who helped them to get around by driving and running errands just passed away in his 60s. No kids, far from home and the only reason he was found the same day was because he didn't show up to drive my dad to a physical therapy appointment.
I have other relatives who are growing old without kids and grandkids. Unless they are tied into a network of nieces and nephews that they managed to hold close, it gets pretty lonely when you are old. Money makes it only slightly less miserable. A court appointed guardian is not going to go the extra mile to make sure you are taken care of the way your kids will if you didn't end up estranged from them. .

Family relationships are not a mathematical formula or an investment scheme. That’s a very sterile way of looking at it. The goal is not to manipulate some quantitative return.

In one way I agree with what you said, approaching parenting as retirement security is foolish. But I kind of doubt that’s how it was meant to be understood.
When kids are raised properly it’s right to expect that love and devotion to be reciprocated later in life. That’s the essence of family and community. I’ve never actually considered the idea of my kids taking care of me, it’s too early for that. But one way I’ll be able to gauge my success in parenting later in life will be by observing their willingness to do so.

I think it's worth noting there are plenty of people for whom one of their strong reasons for having children (or a specific number of children) is to have someone to take care of them when they're older, so it is at least to some extent a calculated thing.

I'll agree that if you have kids your probability of having someone to help with care decisions when you're old goes up. I'm not saying that you two or even most parents use that as a primary motive - we certainly didn't consider it at all - but it does happen and in some cultures it's more strongly ingrained. Of course, the people (at least in this country) who are having their kids for strongly selfish reasons like that are more likely to have kids who end up estranged and want nothing to do with them in their old age so it backfires.

The problem with these sorts of discussions is that many people tend to look through the lens of functional families that are fairly close-knit, and not have an understanding of what other families are like. Even within close-knit families (or ones that call themselves as such), I often look and see that there's actually not a lot of the support going on when they actually need help.

To those who come from great families, count your blessings.

 

[Somedudeintn]

If I wanted someone to take care of me when I was older I would have NOT had kids and saved all that money to pay for some good care when I get old.

I’ve got a 4 year old daughter and twin 1.5 year old boys. The original plan was for 2 kids total but we got surprised with twins! I’ve really enjoyed all the kids but it is nice to get a break every once in a while (like 2 weeks ago going to Oshkosh). It’s pretty great to see when they get excited about things like you getting home and to see them growing and getting engaged in different activities. I do have a bit of envy for those without kids when I start looking at Trade a plane or controller, but the kids certainly bring me more joy than a shiny A36 would. Actually if I didn’t have the kids I wouldn’t need the A36!

My 4 year old loves flying with me and loves to go out on the boat. It’s exciting to see her learning how to write and read and how well she can retain information. The boys are learning to talk and are full of energy. I’m hoping they all share my passion for aviation, but I certainly won’t force them into it if they don’t want to do.

 

[Matthew]

I've seen plenty of people take advantage of their kids, and I've seen it work the other way around, too. That's just life and the dynamics of the way different people and families get along.

I think the "kids are for taking care of me later" is more of a cultural thing and in some cultures that's very powerful. For the most part, everyone I know jokes about that but doesn't really believe in it. We had kids because we wanted to since it seemed to fit with the natural progression of marriage and family, not as a long term care plan. My wife and I do, and will, take care of each other, that's the commitment we made when we got married. The kids? If they want to and are able to help, that's a bonus.

 

[tmyers]

Ted:

I think you know, but I’ll say it now to be clear, that there are so very many people who cherish the fact of your presence in their lives. Count me among their number.

I claim you as family, if you’ll have me.

There are others of similar import to me, and I am blessed to know you all.

Well Spike, I was hoping someone would point that out. And as for family, I remember telling Laurie on a long car ride to Gastons a few years ago that I would gladly be a father and grand father to them. That is how much I think of Ted and his family.

 

[Ghery]

We never gave anyone the chance to ask when we'd get married and have kids. Married at 18, kids at 19, still married 40 years later.

They did ask if we were nuts. I don't have a good answer.

And my wife says I robbed the cradle. She was 19, I was 21 when we got married. We waited a bit longer than you to have our first, she was 22 when he was born. We're still married 46 years later, so I guess she's stuck with me.

 

[Ted]

Well Spike, I was hoping someone would point that out. And as for family, I remember telling Laurie on a long car ride to Gastons a few years ago that I would gladly be a father and grand father to them. That is how much I think of Ted and his family.

Thank you, Tim.

 

[weilke]

The problem with these sorts of discussions is that many people tend to look through the lens of functional families that are fairly close-knit, and not have an understanding of what other families are like. Even within close-knit families (or ones that call themselves as such), I often look and see that there's actually not a lot of the support going on when they actually need help.

That seems to go both ways. Those with broken or dysfunctional families see the world through that lens and at times discount what others experience and value.

The larger problem is that in recent years the broken family crowd has taken over political power and elevates their worldview to be the only valid one.

 

[Zeldman]

That seems to go both ways. Those with broken or dysfunctional families see the world through that lens and at times discount what others experience and value.

The larger problem is that in recent years the broken family crowd has taken over political power and elevates their worldview to be the only valid one.

Sad, but true.

 

[Ted]

That seems to go both ways. Those with broken or dysfunctional families see the world through that lens and at times discount what others experience and value.

The larger problem is that in recent years the broken family crowd has taken over political power and elevates their worldview to be the only valid one.

I think the bigger problem is you have people from broken or dysfunctional families who feel like the world owes them something because of it, and want others to feel sorry for them. It doesn't matter what the reason for thinking this is whether it's family, disability, or anything else, it's not going to be constructive.

Ultimately it's up to everyone to get on with life regardless of what struggles they've endured.

 

[Cooter]

That seems to go both ways. Those with broken or dysfunctional families see the world through that lens and at times discount what others experience and value.

The larger problem is that in recent years the broken family crowd has taken over political power and elevates their worldview to be the only valid one.

One reason is that they are suspicious or dismissive of those those that are functional. Their reference is disfunction, so the appearance of happiness and contentment in other people’s family life must by illusory or hypocritical. That part is somewhat understandable, the problem is when they acquire the power to determine what is *normal*.

 

[Ted]

One reason is that they are suspicious or dismissive of those those that are functional. Their reference is disfunction, so the appearance of happiness and contentment in other people’s family life must by illusory or hypocritical. That part is somewhat understandable, the problem is when they acquire the power to determine what is *normal*.

I think the bigger problem in today's society is that there's a rush to identify many things as "abnormal" or "on the [abnormal] spectrum" to get attention. While it's good to understand that many if not most/all behaviors exist on a spectrum and trying to understand that not everyone is the same as us is good, I think we should start also realizing that what a lot of people are wanting to start quantifying as on an abnormal spectrum is really part of the normal spectrum, and just understanding that there's a lot of variety among normal. I think "normal" tries to get defined into such a small box that normalcy itself is becoming abnormal, which defies any sort of logic in my mind.

ADD/ADHD for example. I was watching an interview with Carroll Shelby (obviously recorded) a while ago, and he said that he had "a bit of that attention disorder" and "they didn't test for that when I was a kid." Basically his point was he got bored with stuff that would've made him a lot more money, and so he went into racing cars.

By that definition, I *SQUIRREL!* could qualify. But man, he had a hell of an interesting life and career. Today, though, he might've been given a different diagnosis instead of "Carroll just really is interested in fast cars, that's just the way he is."

 

[dreyna14]

Most people who have children shouldn't. My wife and I will never have kids, we have dogs. I don't feel as if I would be a bad parent, I just don't want to sacrifice the things that make me happy for something I'll be stuck with basically forever. I like flying, fishing, shooting, traveling, etc. If I start a new hobby and I end up not liking it, I'll dump it. Not like you can put kids up on Craigslist....legally. Parents are abdicating their duties to other people. My wife is a teacher and her job is basically becoming glorified babysitting.

 

[MuseChaser]

... I don't feel as if I would be a bad parent, I just don't want to sacrifice the things that make me happy for something I'll be stuck with basically forever. ...

Not being willing to sacrifice "things that make you happy" for your kids... you're making the right decision by not having any. No judgement, and it's good you're that self-aware. It's pretty much impossible to be a GOOD parent if you're unwilling to sacrifice for your kids.

 

[Ted]

Not being willing to sacrifice "things that make you happy" for your kids... you're making the right decision by not having any. No judgement, and it's good you're that self-aware. It's pretty much impossible to be a GOOD parent if you're unwilling to sacrifice for your kids.

Very true. I don't think anyone going into parenting can truly understand just how much you sacrifice. But starting off being unwilling to at all, not going to end well.

Kids transform you and make you a better person, if you do it right.

 

[Cooter]

I think the bigger problem in today's society is that there's a rush to identify many things as "abnormal" or "on the [abnormal] spectrum" to get attention. While it's good to understand that many if not most/all behaviors exist on a spectrum and trying to understand that not everyone is the same as us is good, I think we should start also realizing that what a lot of people are wanting to start quantifying as on an abnormal spectrum is really part of the normal spectrum, and just understanding that there's a lot of variety among normal. I think "normal" tries to get defined into such a small box that normalcy itself is becoming abnormal, which defies any sort of logic in my mind.

ADD/ADHD for example. I was watching an interview with Carroll Shelby (obviously recorded) a while ago, and he said that he had "a bit of that attention disorder" and "they didn't test for that when I was a kid." Basically his point was he got bored with stuff that would've made him a lot more money, and so he went into racing cars.

By that definition, I *SQUIRREL!* could qualify. But man, he had a hell of an interesting life and career. Today, though, he might've been given a different diagnosis instead of "Carroll just really is interested in fast cars, that's just the way he is."

At one point early in my career I was criticizing an aspect of the culture that was considered essential to our workplace. I mentioned that it wasn’t normal, because in my experience it wasn’t. A fellow pilot looked at me and said, “Cooter, when are you going to realize that you’re the one that’s not normal?” It took about 10 years for that to set in (obviously I never forgot it), but I finally realized he was right. I also realized that normal isn’t my goal. I don’t want a normal family, as that is constantly being re-defined. I want a *good* family. There may not be a definitive line that marks a threshold, but I do believe good can be defined and is achievable.

 

[hindsight2020]

Indeed. The question then becomes how to attain or maintain a society where these differences of opinion are tolerated. That's really my only real dog in the "values" fight.

 

[Cooter]

Indeed. The question then becomes how to attain or maintain a society where these differences of opinion are tolerated. That's really my only real dog in the "values" fight.

Not everything can be tolerated, something must be valued beyond simple tolerance. The 60s are a testament to that. There must be a positive good as a reference, not just a desire to escape the things we see as negative. If everyone’s reference is their own personal freedom, then everyone else becomes an obstacle.