The real entry-level jobs are disappearing

N918KT

N918KT

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N918KT said:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/want-an-entry-level-job-youll-need-lots-of-experience-1407267498

Seems, that I was not alone when I noticed a trend when looking for entry-level jobs. Seems that there are many college graduates who do not have experience needed for an entry-level job today. These days, I learned that most entry-level jobs require experience and special skills. Now the internship is the new real entry-level job.
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I have been finding that out lately also. Even unskilled distribution center (DC) warehouse jobs and there are tons of DC's around here, would like 6 months to 1 year of pick/pack experience. Its stupid.

David
 
Painfully relevant.

post-14022-Charlie-Job-Helmet-Job-Cannon-jpF8.gif
 
Our last three entry level engineer hires have been interns.
 
Should have gotten a real degree.
 
Since schools do such a lousy job at teaching practical knowledge and don't align well to what businesses need day-one, then internships are practically a necessity. Many corporations have cut back training budgets - an internship is virtually necessary.
 
N918KT said:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/want-an-entry-level-job-youll-need-lots-of-experience-1407267498



Seems, that I was not alone when I noticed a trend when looking for entry-level jobs. Seems that there are many college graduates who do not have experience needed for an entry-level job today. These days, I learned that most entry-level jobs require experience and special skills. Now the internship is the new real entry-level job.
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Baby boomer retirement curve. Less business, less investment, higher regulation, higher taxation.

Nothing unexpected in that environment at all. Virtually the same place the Boomers found themselves in at the beginning of their careers. They got wickedly competitive with one another (a trend that never ended) and built new businesses, leveraging government regulation to their benefit all along the way.

Millennials may never get that competitive. They didn't have survivor parents of both the Great Depression and WWII as role models. They got participation awards.
 
Ya but the millenials will not play the old game and the old machine can't run without them, not yet but soon.
 
It's going to be an interesting next 10 years.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Ya but the millenials will not play the old game and the old machine can't run without them, not yet but soon.
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They'll play new games. They just had to get a late start since things were in natural decline and they had to wait to start careers behind Boomers who no longer retired in their 60s. Most see the Boomer games as detrimental to society and want "save the world" kinds of jobs but those are few and far between, so they do stuff to get by, like all generations before them.

They'll be a highly specialized mobile workforce. Well, the ones that apply themselves will. Currently the makeup of the country is about 50/50 net consumers versus producers. That will probably continue for quite some time.
 
denverpilot said:
Baby boomer retirement curve. Less business, less investment, higher regulation, higher taxation.

Nothing unexpected in that environment at all. Virtually the same place the Boomers found themselves in at the beginning of their careers. They got wickedly competitive with one another (a trend that never ended) and built new businesses, leveraging government regulation to their benefit all along the way.

Millennials may never get that competitive. They didn't have survivor parents of both the Great Depression and WWII as role models. They got participation awards.
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Automation and wage race to the bottom are the culprits. Most american corporations have sent most of their jobs overseas where they pay slave labor wages and no benefits. There are few regulations so the workers live in dormitory of thousands making fourty bucks a month. ( no health insurance, lousy health care. ) In China most wear masks in the large city's due to air pollution, on and on, including buildings collapsing due to shoddy construction, killing thousands of workers. While these same american corporations try to escape paying any U.S. Taxes, ( many do not pay ANY!) they would certainly expect the U.S. To come to their immediate aid should their overseas facility's be attacked or in any way harmed! My parents survived the depression as did millions of others including of course Ronnie Reagans family with help from the U.S. Government. ( his father and brother both were on the dole during the entire depression.)
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Automation and wage race to the bottom are the culprits. Most american corporations have sent most of their jobs overseas where they pay slave labor wages and no benefits. There are few regulations so the workers live in dormitory of thousands making fourty bucks a month. ( no health insurance, lousy health care. ) In China most wear masks in the large city's due to air pollution, on and on, including buildings collapsing due to shoddy construction, killing thousands of workers. While these same american corporations try to escape paying any U.S. Taxes, ( many do not pay ANY!) they would certainly expect the U.S. To come to their immediate aid should their overseas facility's be attacked or in any way harmed! My parents survived the depression as did millions of others including of course Ronnie Reagans family with help from the U.S. Government. ( his father and brother both were on the dole during the entire depression.)
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Your "slave labor" wages in Southeast Asia allow most workers to live something close to a lower middle class income, by their standards. The US cost of living is very high compared to world standards. Same with the EU.

You want another depression? Just allow minimum wage laws to drive our dollar to the bottom and kill off the prospects of most Americans to have a self funded retirement. Well it will happen. I hope you're happy with that.
 
N918KT said:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/want-an-entry-level-job-youll-need-lots-of-experience-1407267498

Seems, that I was not alone when I noticed a trend when looking for entry-level jobs. Seems that there are many college graduates who do not have experience needed for an entry-level job today. These days, I learned that most entry-level jobs require experience and special skills. Now the internship is the new real entry-level job.
Click to expand...


Most people my age got their entry level job and work experience while still in high school. I started working for a car dealer when I was 11, added a welding fabrication job when I was 12, and added an engine machine shop job when I was 15. I graduated High School working three jobs, most of my friends had one or two. School is not there to prepare you for life, you have to do that on your own. Nobody is going to hand you jack ****, you have to get out there, bust ass and hustle.
 
KA550 said:
Should have gotten a real degree.
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or learn a skilled trade. We have shops in the USA that have had openings for electricians or pipefitters for years that we've been unable to fill. Everyone says they want a job but they all want to sit behind a desk and design web pages.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Your "slave labor" wages in Southeast Asia allow most workers to live something close to a lower middle class income, by their standards. The US cost of living is very high compared to world standards. Same with the EU.

You want another depression? Just allow minimum wage laws to drive our dollar to the bottom and kill off the prospects of most Americans to have a self funded retirement. Well it will happen. I hope you're happy with that.
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What a stupid arguement. Why not reintroduce child labor in the United states. !!??Go back to school! LEARN! The next depression IS coming. It will arrive due to the same cause as it did in 1929. Deregulation. It is also what caused the mini depression in 2007-09. Right now, the fed is not enforcing Dodd frank so it WILL happen again. ( Wall Street gambling with YOUR money!) If an employer cannot pay 10 bucks an hour minimum he is probably on the way to failure anyway. Yours is a pitiful uninformed excuse.
 
JHW said:
or learn a skilled trade. We have shops in the USA that have had openings for electricians or pipefitters for years that we've been unable to fill. Everyone says they want a job but they all want to sit behind a desk and design web pages.
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Good points but that physical work gets problematic north of age 50 or so. An injury can put you out of business.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Most american corporations have sent most of their jobs overseas ...
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You have actual stats on that, or is it a Salon talking point? There's millions of corporations. If "most" sent "most" of their jobs overseas, no one, except gubermint employees, would have jobs.

I'll bet you like being able to buy a 50" TV for $350.

BTW, the plural of "city is "cities."
 
Sac Arrow said:
Your "slave labor" wages in Southeast Asia allow most workers to live something close to a lower middle class income, by their standards. The US cost of living is very high compared to world standards. Same with the EU.

You want another depression? Just allow minimum wage laws to drive our dollar to the bottom and kill off the prospects of most Americans to have a self funded retirement. Well it will happen. I hope you're happy with that.
Click to expand...


That's not what I have seen in Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Bangladesh, or anywhere else. Those people live in condition you wouldn't dream of. Prisoners in the US live under better conditions and get more food. Every thing I can buy here costs the same or more there.
 
JHW said:
or learn a skilled trade. We have shops in the USA that have had openings for electricians or pipefitters for years that we've been unable to fill. Everyone says they want a job but they all want to sit behind a desk and design web pages.
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Yep. Only times I've been without a job have been because I didn't want one. I've driven trucks, flown planes, built web pages, been an engineer, fixed cars, babysat...
 
paflyer said:
You have actual stats on that, or is it a Salon talking point? There's millions of corporations. If "most" sent "most" of their jobs overseas, no one, except gubermint employees, would have jobs.

I'll bet you like being able to buy a 50" TV for $350.

BTW, the plural of "city is "cities."
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Btw, your arguement is immature and uninformed. Easy to look these things up! READ! Also in the mix are huge companys like Beth steel, which employed thousands in excellent middle income jobs , no longer in business. 85 percent of the crap Walmart sells is made overseas while most of the company's are. " American".
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Btw, your arguement is immature and uninformed. Easy to look these things up! READ! Also in the mix are huge companys like Beth steel, which employed thousands in excellent middle income jobs , no longer in business. 85 percent of the crap Walmart sells is made overseas while most of the company's are. " American".
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Bethlehem Steel put themselves out of business with poor quality control, namely a batch of 1983 150# rail that was all defective due to lack of process control in the Control Cooling stage. Conrail and Burlington Northern laid it, and it all had to be replaced ASAP, plus they had to pay all the fines for the delivery delays on the railroads, as well as the continuous testing of the rail until it got replaced. I was working for Sperry Rail Service in 1985 when we hit the Toledo Main Line of Conrail. 4 tracks of all brand new rail. The Roadmaster said "You may as well pick up the test carriages, this is all new rail." When we finished testing 3 of the tracks we had marked out every 33' rail length except 3 with "Out of service" defects, TDT Medium or larger. They wouldnt let us test the 4th one because Detroit would have closed down if we did. Burlington Northern had the same issue with it, I tested the whole north line on the special test where we had to run the ultrasound through the side of the head, that was a hugely expensive test.

Incompetence is what brought down Bethlehem Steel.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
What a stupid arguement. Why not reintroduce child labor in the United states. !!??Go back to school! LEARN! The next depression IS coming. It will arrive due to the same cause as it did in 1929. Deregulation. It is also what caused the mini depression in 2007-09. Right now, the fed is not enforcing Dodd frank so it WILL happen again. ( Wall Street gambling with YOUR money!) If an employer cannot pay 10 bucks an hour minimum he is probably on the way to failure anyway. Yours is a pitiful uninformed excuse.
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We can not come to agreement on this. You and I see things fundamentally differently.

Henning said:
That's not what I have seen in Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Bangladesh, or anywhere else. Those people live in condition you wouldn't dream of. Prisoners in the US live under better conditions and get more food. Every thing I can buy here costs the same or more there.
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Alright. You are correct that US prisoners have a better lifestyle. Don't think I don't know of their conditions. I go there three months out of the year. The point I'm making is that they manage fine on that. Their health care is taken care of through the government. Not entirely but their contribution won't break their family finances. The welfare people? The missionaries take them in. And they decide if those people can cut it or not.

Free enterprise. It seems to work.
 
Henning said:
Bethlehem Steel put themselves out of business with poor quality control, namely a batch of 1983 150# rail that was all defective due to lack of process control in the Control Cooling stage. Conrail and Burlington Northern laid it, and it all had to be replaced ASAP, plus they had to pay all the fines for the delivery delays on the railroads, as well as the continuous testing of the rail until it got replaced. I was working for Sperry Rail Service in 1985 when we hit the Toledo Main Line of Conrail. 4 tracks of all brand new rail. The Roadmaster said "You may as well pick up the test carriages, this is all new rail." When we finished testing 3 of the tracks we had marked out every 33' rail length except 3 with "Out of service" defects, TDT Medium or larger. They wouldnt let us test the 4th one because Detroit would have closed down if we did. Burlington Northern had the same issue with it, I tested the whole north line on the special test where we had to run the ultrasound through the side of the head, that was a hugely expensive test.

Incompetence is what brought down Bethlehem Steel.
Click to expand...

Beth steel was IMMENSE! to say this single incident brought them down is absurd. They were brought down mainly by overseas steel companys flooding the market with government subsidized product. While all their management decisons were not correct , they were an immense part of production during WW2 and beyond. Their ship building dept. was not only huge but very profitable. This also was undermined by cheap overseas shipyard labor.
 
Sac Arrow said:
We can not come to agreement on this. You and I see things fundamentally differently.



Alright. You are correct that US prisoners have a better lifestyle. Don't think I don't know of their conditions. I go there three months out of the year. The point I'm making is that they manage fine on that. Their health care is taken care of through the government. Not entirely but their contribution won't break their family finances. The welfare people? The missionaries take them in. And they decide if those people can cut it or not.

Free enterprise. It seems to work.
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Government Healthcare in Indonesia?:dunno: Never seen it. Indonesia is what America would be if we didn't have laws protecting people or the environment.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Beth steel was IMMENSE! to say this single incident brought them down is absurd. They were brought down mainly by overseas steel companys flooding the market with government subsidized product. While all their management decisons were not correct , they were an immense part of production during WW2 and beyond. Their ship building dept. was not only huge but very profitable. This also was undermined by cheap overseas shipyard labor.
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That is what put Beth Steel under, the cost of that was in multiple billions. There is no way they could be competitive after that. Ship building in the US post WWII is on a "Barely happening" scale. There are only a few shipyards left in the US that can build a big ship, and half of them are owned by BAE.
 
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Henning said:
Government Healthcare in Indonesia?:dunno: Never seen it. Indonesia is what America would be if we didn't have laws protecting people or the environment.
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I'm thinking Vietnwm but you're right. I would probably be operating more happily in Indonesia.

I'm all for protecting the environment but the people entrusted to pass legislation to that end are morons.
 
The basic premise in any business is to address the most expensive most inefficient aspect. Today PEOPLE are a huge negative and a solution of last resort. My goal is to eliminate people by any means possible. If I can buy a $100K machine that replaces a $10 a hour worker, DONE. The machine works 24X7X365, no vacation, no medical care, NO law suits.

Lots of manufacturing will come back to the states, the jobs won't though.
 
Alexb2000 said:
The basic premise in any business is to address the most expensive most inefficient aspect. Today PEOPLE are a huge negative and a solution of last resort. My goal is to eliminate people by any means possible. If I can buy a $100K machine that replaces a $10 a hour worker, DONE. The machine works 24X7X365, no vacation, no medical care, NO law suits.



Lots of manufacturing will come back to the states, the jobs won't though.
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Actually no machine works 24x7x365 with proper maintenance.

Be cautious. Manufacturers have caught on and service contracts are ever rising in price and only a few are worth the high dollars the "mandatory" service contract requires.

My employer was playing that game in telecom over 20 years ago. Sure, we'd sell you a great system that had great uptime but you paid for the people to sit around waiting to fly out and fix it. Software upgrades were only given to those with active service contracts. Even for obvious bugs.
 
denverpilot said:
Actually no machine works 24x7x365 with proper maintenance.

Be cautious. Manufacturers have caught on and service contracts are ever rising in price and only a few are worth the high dollars the "mandatory" service contract requires.

My employer was playing that game in telecom over 20 years ago. Sure, we'd sell you a great system that had great uptime but you paid for the people to sit around waiting to fly out and fix it. Software upgrades were only given to those with active service contracts. Even for obvious bugs.
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One could say that your job is maintaining the machines that cost many people their jobs. No more rooms full of secretaries typing every correspondence, mail rooms, etc. Of course the goal now is to make the technology more and more like an appliance to reduce the amount of support the systems require. It never ends, people are becoming obsolete. I can't think of a single industry that isn't focused on eliminating people.
 
Alexb2000 said:
One could say that your job is maintaining the machines that cost many people their jobs. No more rooms full of secretaries typing every correspondence, mail rooms, etc. Of course the goal now is to make the technology more and more like an appliance to reduce the amount of support the systems require. It never ends, people are becoming obsolete. I can't think of a single industry that isn't focused on eliminating people.
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Yep, which will eventually cut their own throats as they will lose their customer base; unless we find more to produce. Urban Agriculture is the logical solution since the world will always need more food.
 
Henning said:
Yep, which will eventually cut their own throats as they will lose their customer base; unless we find more to produce. Urban Agriculture is the logical solution since the world will always need more food.
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Maybe for certain things, but on a strait calorie vs. effort basis industrial farming is hard to beat. You can buy a metric ton of corn for ~$170. Rail can move that ton of corn 450 miles on a gallon of fuel. As more and more technology goes into it the cost will keep coming down and the production will go up. Meat demand will be the most challenging to satisfy IMO.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Maybe for certain things, but on a strait calorie vs. effort basis industrial farming is hard to beat. You can buy a metric ton of corn for ~$170. Rail can move that ton of corn 450 miles on a gallon of fuel. As more and more technology goes into it the cost will keep coming down and the production will go up. Meat demand will be the most challenging to satisfy IMO.
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Yep but that's mostly feed corn and other grains. Most fruits, berries and vegetables still need to be hand picked, plus urban agriculture takes the weather out of the picture, plus it can be fed waste heat and CO2 along with reclaimed water for irrigation, from Solid Oxide Fuel Cells. Since they are at least 14% more efficient than any combustion process at producing electricity, with low power consumption lighting, and using abandoned industrial buildings like Bethlehem Steel, you basically finance the entire operation with the sale of electricity, and the food product pays the people. We can replace the welfare system this way by giving the people something productive to do rather than just give them money. This will also go a long way towards ending the social strife in this country.

At the end of the Civil War, former slaves were supposed to get 40 acres and a mule, it never happened, that is the karmic issue that keeps racism alive and well in the US.
 
N918KT said:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/want-an-entry-level-job-youll-need-lots-of-experience-1407267498

Seems, that I was not alone when I noticed a trend when looking for entry-level jobs. Seems that there are many college graduates who do not have experience needed for an entry-level job today. These days, I learned that most entry-level jobs require experience and special skills. Now the internship is the new real entry-level job.
Click to expand...

One of the problems we've discovered with recent college grad's is that many of them have never had a job and learned basic things like how to be an employee. Things like showing up on time, doing what the boss sez, not being on FB at work, professional dress, etc.

A lot of these kids would be much better off if they had worked at McDonald's or Publix for a few months, just to understand what it is like to hold a job.

But with the recent poor economy, McDonalds and Publix were hiring 30 year olds who needed a job and already had experience in the workforce, rather than HS students who needed pocket money. So today's 20-25 YO's had fewer job opportunities than prior generations.
 
I went the skilled route.

I apprenticed for four years through the IBEW and when we graduated, the boss said "you are now a journeyman lineman, you have as good if not better earning power than a college degree." He was right. The college engineer's hated our guts because we made tons more money than them.

I'll bet if I wanted to come out of retirement right now at 56, I could have a good full time paying job with a utility company by next week if I were willing to re-locate. A skilled person can write their own ticket.
 
Find the job you want, and talk the person into giving it to you. This may take perseverance, attitude is worth more than experience if you show you have the right attitude. I hire green deck hands over experienced ones all the time for crew. Experience can be a positive or negative thing depending on what and from whom they have learned. I can teach my crew any job on the boat as long as they have the right attitude.
 
kyleb said:
One of the problems we've discovered with recent college grad's is that many of them have never had a job and learned basic things like how to be an employee. Things like showing up on time, doing what the boss sez, not being on FB at work, professional dress, etc.
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The problems I've had with recent grads are the opposite- hours are "until done" not 8-5 o'clock, telling truth to power (and having the fix ready to go), thinking outside what their computer says, being willing to get up close and dirty with inspections instead of staying in the truck, etc...
 
Minimum wage jumped in 28 states, today, cutting off more young, unskilled, and poorly skilled workers from jobs.... Again.
 
wsuffa said:
Since schools do such a lousy job at teaching practical knowledge and don't align well to what businesses need day-one, then internships are practically a necessity. Many corporations have cut back training budgets - an internship is virtually necessary.
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This. :yes:
 
kyleb said:
One of the problems we've discovered with recent college grad's is that many of them have never had a job and learned basic things like how to be an employee. Things like showing up on time, doing what the boss sez, not being on FB at work, professional dress, etc.

A lot of these kids would be much better off if they had worked at McDonald's or Publix for a few months, just to understand what it is like to hold a job.

But with the recent poor economy, McDonalds and Publix were hiring 30 year olds who needed a job and already had experience in the workforce, rather than HS students who needed pocket money. So today's 20-25 YO's had fewer job opportunities than prior generations.
Click to expand...



THIS, absofawkinglutely THIS!

After nearly 10 years of running my own business I decided to pick up a second job at an auto parts store for a while. They loved me there because after a decade of being the ONLY employee in my business I worked harder than almost anybody there, while feeling like I was being a lazy bum. In the 2 years I had that job every person they hired was a complete mess. It blew me away. In every way it was a dirt simple easy job. Some automotive knowledge was needed, and the more you had the more it helped when dealing with customers, but the rest of the job was just putting things on shelves and working a register. Easy as it gets, yet these kids couldn't be bothered to put down the cell phone, and are constantly complaining about the schedule, and arguing with their managers when asked to do something solidly within the job description. I finally quit when I started my flight training because it was so frustrating being the only person actually doing their job.

I've NEVER had a problem finding a job. Employers want people who will work and who can communicate well. When you walk in with an attitude and expect the world to be handed to you........sorry. Seems far too many young people never got that lesson though.
 
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