The real entry-level jobs are disappearing

Of the four businesses I've owned, most of the jobs I've hired have been "entry level". Back in the day, it was newspaper distribution, and hundreds of adult delivery drivers. For the last 13 years, it's been housekeepers and desk staff at our aviation themed hotels.

Every summer, we bring over two or three foreign workers. These are college kids from all over the world, who compete to come to the U.S. to work. They are often grad students.

They pay their own way to get here. We provide them with a job that pays $9/hour. They pay for their own housing. They arrive at the start of the peak season (June) and go home at the end of the peak season (September).

Why would a grad student from Russia want to work as a housekeeper on an island in the Gulf of Mexico? Because it's GOLD on their resumes. To say "Worked in the United States" opens doors that nothing else can -- even if it was just swamping out toilets.

In the last five years we have had Mongolians, Russians, Poles, and Chinese. The Poles have been far and away the best employees we've ever had, followed closely by the Russians. They easily do TWICE the work of our American employees, show up for work on time, sober (!), and never, ever, EVER call in sick.

After working all day for us, they all take second jobs in one of the restaurants, busing tables or washing dishes. They are incredible, working machines, with a work ethic that would make my dad proud.

Training? We show these kids how we want the rooms to look, and BAM! -- they've got it, perfectly, every time, from that point on. We can train American workers for days, weeks -- sometimes forever -- and never get that level of consistency.

Why? Because they just don't care. No one ever expected them to care, from grade school until today.

Frankly, it's embarrassing to socialize with the foreign kids. When they're all together in large groups (as happens here -- there are hundreds, maybe thousands of these kids here every summer) they openly make fun of their American co-workers. And who can blame them? I find myself making excuses for Americans and their laziness. :(

The entry level jobs are here -- but no one wants to do them. Except for the grad students who will PAY THEIR WAY FROM HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:


Just an idle question - isn't it a requirement that you show you've received no qualified applicants for a position before you're allowed to hire a foreign worker? How do you do that in your case?
 
A lifetime, almost literally. First computer at 12 years old, and a passion for electronics and gadgets from before that. I was the kid who disassembled things I wasn't supposed to.

That said, I don't believe that background is necessary for tech work. Attention to detail and a pretty good memory serve better than just about anything else.

Everything in the biz is generally documented and someone willing to do grunt work can learn fast with a mentor to avoid the non-obvious mistakes.

I cut my chops traveling to customer sites as a "field engineer" (which I learned later is better described as "appeasement engineer") fixing and installing stuff that I often had never seen before. A lot of late night book and manual cracking, sometimes in the hotel room, back then... because the older guys didn't want to travel.
Sounds rough, but being able to look stuff up reliably is a plus. I do have at least SOME attention to detail and memory (pilot status) but again, never really tried. Haven't taken much apart but I think I could if I sat down and tried it. I put a computer together but I haven't the foggiest as to what each piece on the mobo does for example.

If you don't have a passion for tech, I'd avoid trying to do it just for the money ...
People have been telling me to have a backup for a career and I'm not really sure what to jump at. I want a career in something aviation related but getting a foot in the door is a pain with just a bachelors and 4-5 jobs on the list, 3 of which were aviation related (airport ops, sim installation, aviation sales). I am pretty good at using computers and figuring stuff out with nary but a search engine but who isn't?

A bit of programming seems like it'd be fun to learn. Not sure what it'd be like as a career though. Apart from computers and aviation, I don't have enough interest in other things to want to make a career out of it. Still looking though! I don't want to have to do -anything- for the money but I don't know if that's realistic at this age. Or day.
 
So companies are moving jobs overseas to escape "unfettered" regulation and confiscatory taxes, and it is the company's fault. Companies are being picky because there is an unprecedented number of people out of work and looking for jobs, yet that is the company's fault. Foreign workers are much, much harder working and better than american workers (according to posters here anyway)... And then it seems to me, some are saying that they want to make buggy whips and that is the only job they want even though the market for buggy whips is almost non existent.

I say BS.

Why don't we focus on where the real problem lies, the democrat control, constant threat of increased taxes, thousands of new crippling regulations all over the past 8 years?
 
So companies are moving jobs overseas to escape "unfettered" regulation and confiscatory taxes, and it is the company's fault. Companies are being picky because there is an unprecedented number of people out of work and looking for jobs, yet that is the company's fault. Foreign workers are much, much harder working and better than american workers (according to posters here anyway)... And then it seems to me, some are saying that they want to make buggy whips and that is the only job they want even though the market for buggy whips is almost non existent.

I say BS.

Why don't we focus on where the real problem lies, the democrat control, constant threat of increased taxes, thousands of new crippling regulations all over the past 8 years?

I own business and have done a lot of hiring in my life. Among many problems with employees litigation looms the largest. It isn't a political thing, it is just where we are in this country. Call an insurance broker and say you want to get into the construction business, or start a foundry, or logging, or… When the agent gets done laughing they will tell you a number that will not leave you laughing. The bottom line is many business' in this country can only be run by those that are sue proof and operating illegally. If you have any assets, then you better work for someone else, have a lot of insurance and corporate protection, or just don't hire any employees.
 
Just an idle question - isn't it a requirement that you show you've received no qualified applicants for a position before you're allowed to hire a foreign worker? How do you do that in your case?

Where on God's green Earth did you ever get that idea?
 
Where on God's green Earth did you ever get that idea?
I believe it is a requirement for H1B visas, Indian IT type stuff. They get around it by writing job descriptions no one can fit.
 
I own business and have done a lot of hiring in my life. Among many problems with employees litigation looms the largest. It isn't a political thing, it is just where we are in this country. Call an insurance broker and say you want to get into the construction business, or start a foundry, or logging, or… When the agent gets done laughing they will tell you a number that will not leave you laughing. The bottom line is many business' in this country can only be run by those that are sue proof and operating illegally. If you have any assets, then you better work for someone else, have a lot of insurance and corporate protection, or just don't hire any employees.

Amen, brother.

I own a hotel. My insurance is absolutely insane. I have to rent one room a day (out of 23), every day, all year long, just to pay for my liability insurance alone.

That is NOT counting Windstorm and Flood insurance, which is a whole 'nother issue, on an island in the Gulf of Mexico.

Despite this, we were sued last year for violating a new ADA rule that requires a pool lift be installed in every public pool in America. The fact that our entire hotel is grandfathered -- it couldn't be made ADA compliant, if we tried -- didn't matter. The legal fees to fight the guy (who never set foot in the hotel, or even in Texas, for that matter) were higher than simply installing the lift (for $10K) and settling out of court.

And NONE of this was covered by insurance, BTW.

Better yet, I will probably be sued for HAVING the pool lift. The only people who have used it are drunks, and -- sooner or later -- one of them will use it as a diving board and become a quadraplegic.

I tell my kids that they would be nuts to be entrepreneurs. And I'm on my fourth business.
 
I believe it is a requirement for H1B visas, Indian IT type stuff. They get around it by writing job descriptions no one can fit.

Well, thank the FSM, we don't have THAT requirement.

Since it would expand some bureaucrat's power, however, I'm sure it's coming. :mad2:
 
"Student loans have passed credit cards and auto loans to become the second biggest source of personal debt in the U.S., trailing only mortgages."

http://m.nydailynews.com/news/natio...rillion-student-loans-article-1.1796606#bmb=1

Yep, you become an indentured servant to the financial industry the day you take out your first student loan, like the tobacco industry and patriotism industry, you want to get them young. As soon as they breed, then you can really put the screws to them and make them ignore their conscience for some more money.
 
Fortunately my dad sponsored me through college for my Bachelors, so no debt here. The problem is, even having no debt and a fairly solid footing education-wise, I'm still having problems landing a job in my career field. I don't have the most extensive job history but I do have a pretty good variety and what I'm told is a decent head on my shoulders.

Everyone in high school told me go to college and you'll get hired, the people in college told me I'd get hired, my dad was fairly sure I'd be able to just walk into a job after college and now I'm struggling. If he didn't pay for the degree I'd be in debt up to my eyebrows and on top of that not making enough to repay the loans in any time at all. I dunno why this is the norm for those my age who actually get through college without dropping out because "it's hard" but I wish it wasn't :dunno:
 
Fortunately my dad sponsored me through college for my Bachelors, so no debt here. The problem is, even having no debt and a fairly solid footing education-wise, I'm still having problems landing a job in my career field. I don't have the most extensive job history but I do have a pretty good variety and what I'm told is a decent head on my shoulders.

Everyone in high school told me go to college and you'll get hired, the people in college told me I'd get hired, my dad was fairly sure I'd be able to just walk into a job after college and now I'm struggling. If he didn't pay for the degree I'd be in debt up to my eyebrows and on top of that not making enough to repay the loans in any time at all. I dunno why this is the norm for those my age who actually get through college without dropping out because "it's hard" but I wish it wasn't :dunno:

What is your career field?
 
Fortunately my dad sponsored me through college for my Bachelors, so no debt here. The problem is, even having no debt and a fairly solid footing education-wise, I'm still having problems landing a job in my career field. I don't have the most extensive job history but I do have a pretty good variety and what I'm told is a decent head on my shoulders.

Everyone in high school told me go to college and you'll get hired, the people in college told me I'd get hired, my dad was fairly sure I'd be able to just walk into a job after college and now I'm struggling. If he didn't pay for the degree I'd be in debt up to my eyebrows and on top of that not making enough to repay the loans in any time at all. I dunno why this is the norm for those my age who actually get through college without dropping out because "it's hard" but I wish it wasn't :dunno:
Same here. I'm fortunate enough to have my parent spay for my college and I'm graduating in the Spring with only one loan of a couple thousand dollars which I can easily pay up since I saved up a lot of money. I got offered CFI jobs at two different locations which is awesome so now I have a choice where I want to work.
 
What is your career field?
The degree is in Professional Aeronautics from Embry Riddle (since I graduated, it has apparently been changed to just Aeronautics).

I do want to be in the aviation industry. So far, I've been enjoying working at the airport here, but I have done a couple other things aviation related (including get my license and work installing a flight sim) and it's been pretty fun and rewarding.

From ERAU's own page on my degree. I have a double minor, one in aviation safety, one in management.
Career Areas

  • Accident Investigation/Prevention
  • Aircraft Crew Member
  • Airport Management
  • Air Traffic Control
  • Air Transportation Specialist
  • Aviation Maintenance
  • Aviation Safety
  • Aircraft Manufacturing
  • Avionics & Electronics
  • Consulting
  • Customer Service
  • Education/Instruction/Training
  • Ground Support Services
  • Operations
  • Pilot
  • Management
  • Sales and Marketing
  • Technical Writing
Employers
  • Aerospace Industry
  • Air Services
  • Aircraft Manufacturers
  • Air Services
  • Airlines
  • Airports
  • Consulting Firms
  • Corporate Flight Departments
  • Defense Contractors
  • Federal Research Labs
  • Fixed Base Operators
  • Flight Schools
  • Government Agencies
  • Helicopter Manufacturers
  • Insurance Companies
  • Manufacturing Industry
  • Multinational Corporations
 
The entry level jobs are here -- but no one wants to do them. Except for the grad students who will PAY THEIR WAY FROM HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

I think the OP was about entry level career jobs after college, not toilet scrubbing jobs.

Just an observation on the hotel business as I travel, it seems that most small operations like yours are immigrant owned. An Indian family buys a Motel and then hires any number of relatives and friends to do the work there. Pretty much all immigrant labor from management on down.

The bigger hotel operations pretty much just hire immigrants too for the grunt work. Mostly Latin Americans, but also Asians like Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai, Cambodian, etc. here in the Bay Area. Management and customer relations are Americans. How come you don't just hire a load of Latinos? I imagine that part of Texas to be loaded with them.
 
I have no idea if he is still alive, but I remember friends of mine who lived in Beverly Hils, telling me that the richest man in Bevery Hills (you know, 90210) owned a company that cleaned offices.

I keep hearing how we much legalize those 32 million illegal aliens because no one wants to do the scut work, but find it to be almost as big a lie as claiming that abortion is healthcare.
I know someone who made a fortune by building a valet parking empire, then sold it.
 
Of the four businesses I've owned, most of the jobs I've hired have been "entry level". Back in the day, it was newspaper distribution, and hundreds of adult delivery drivers. For the last 13 years, it's been housekeepers and desk staff at our aviation themed hotels.

Every summer, we bring over two or three foreign workers. These are college kids from all over the world, who compete to come to the U.S. to work. They are often grad students.

They pay their own way to get here. We provide them with a job that pays $9/hour. They pay for their own housing. They arrive at the start of the peak season (June) and go home at the end of the peak season (September).

Why would a grad student from Russia want to work as a housekeeper on an island in the Gulf of Mexico? Because it's GOLD on their resumes. To say "Worked in the United States" opens doors that nothing else can -- even if it was just swamping out toilets.

In the last five years we have had Mongolians, Russians, Poles, and Chinese. The Poles have been far and away the best employees we've ever had, followed closely by the Russians. They easily do TWICE the work of our American employees, show up for work on time, sober (!), and never, ever, EVER call in sick.

After working all day for us, they all take second jobs in one of the restaurants, busing tables or washing dishes. They are incredible, working machines, with a work ethic that would make my dad proud.

Training? We show these kids how we want the rooms to look, and BAM! -- they've got it, perfectly, every time, from that point on. We can train American workers for days, weeks -- sometimes forever -- and never get that level of consistency.

Why? Because they just don't care. No one ever expected them to care, from grade school until today.

Frankly, it's embarrassing to socialize with the foreign kids. When they're all together in large groups (as happens here -- there are hundreds, maybe thousands of these kids here every summer) they openly make fun of their American co-workers. And who can blame them? I find myself making excuses for Americans and their laziness. :(

The entry level jobs are here -- but no one wants to do them. Except for the grad students who will PAY THEIR WAY FROM HALF WAY AROUND THE WORLD.

:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
So, you're saying that a way to get good service here is to lower the barriers to immigration? :stirpot:
 
I know someone who made a fortune by building a valet parking empire, then sold it.

yep. Fortunes won and increased with only entry level workers manning the jobs.
 
I own business and have done a lot of hiring in my life. Among many problems with employees litigation looms the largest. It isn't a political thing, it is just where we are in this country. Call an insurance broker and say you want to get into the construction business, or start a foundry, or logging, or… When the agent gets done laughing they will tell you a number that will not leave you laughing. The bottom line is many business' in this country can only be run by those that are sue proof and operating illegally. If you have any assets, then you better work for someone else, have a lot of insurance and corporate protection, or just don't hire any employees.

And where do the laws and regulations that you are worried about being sued over come from????
 
Amen, brother.

I own a hotel. My insurance is absolutely insane. I have to rent one room a day (out of 23), every day, all year long, just to pay for my liability insurance alone.

That is NOT counting Windstorm and Flood insurance, which is a whole 'nother issue, on an island in the Gulf of Mexico.

Despite this, we were sued last year for violating a new ADA rule that requires a pool lift be installed in every public pool in America. The fact that our entire hotel is grandfathered -- it couldn't be made ADA compliant, if we tried -- didn't matter. The legal fees to fight the guy (who never set foot in the hotel, or even in Texas, for that matter) were higher than simply installing the lift (for $10K) and settling out of court.

And NONE of this was covered by insurance, BTW.

Better yet, I will probably be sued for HAVING the pool lift. The only people who have used it are drunks, and -- sooner or later -- one of them will use it as a diving board and become a quadraplegic.

I tell my kids that they would be nuts to be entrepreneurs. And I'm on my fourth business.

Now you have a lift that'll never be used.

Years ago, maybe close to 20, a buddy of mine moved back to his small hometown and bought the local theater that played second run movies. He always thought it would be cool to run a theater. He was no dummy, he let his wife handle the money. His kids ran concessions and he took care of everything else. One of the things he wanted to do was remodel the medeival bathrooms - they were just one step up from a five gallon bucket with a toilet seat on top. He said if he did any remodeling he'd have to meet a bunch of new ADA rules that would break him, so he just left them alone.
 
And where do the laws and regulations that you are worried about being sued over come from????

I think you'd get the agreement you're looking for much easier by just calling into Rush Limbaugh's show. IMO we've had tort problems in this country for a long time. It won't improve without a serious overhaul of our legal system, it isn't a one party vs. the other problem.
 
I think you'd get the agreement you're looking for much easier by just calling into Rush Limbaugh's show. IMO we've had tort problems in this country for a long time. It won't improve without a serious overhaul of our legal system, it isn't a one party vs. the other problem.

I'm not looking for agreement, just a little less BS. You complain about getting sued but don't understand that is a government/regulation/ law problem? :dunno:

I never said it's a one party problem, but look at what is going on now and you'd have to be kidding yourself if you think it isn't going to get much worse with the prospects of it getting better very dim.

That said, most business people I know are more concerned about the impediments in place to getting things done and serving the government master over getting sued.
 
I'm not looking for agreement, just a little less BS. You complain about getting sued but don't understand that is a government/regulation/ law problem? :dunno:

I never said it's a one party problem, but look at what is going on now and you'd have to be kidding yourself if you think it isn't going to get much worse with the prospects of it getting better very dim.

That said, most business people I know are more concerned about the impediments in place to getting things done and serving the government master over getting sued.

You're right, I don't know anything about it, I'm just B.S.ing. Have a good night.
 
I want a career in something aviation related but getting a foot in the door is a pain with just a bachelors and 4-5 jobs on the list, 3 of which were aviation related (airport ops, sim installation, aviation sales). I am pretty good at using computers and figuring stuff out with nary but a search engine but who isn't?
Are you tied to Shawnee, Oklahoma? Is a bigger city a possibility? How about scheduling and logistics with a charter company?
 
Are you tied to Shawnee, Oklahoma? Is a bigger city a possibility? How about scheduling and logistics with a charter company?
Not so much except for the airport job here. Moving to OKC to aim for better jobs and also to get out of some pretty iffy apartments here. GF has educational plans in the city as well. So more tied to OK than a specific city. I have no experience with scheduling and logistics and I don't think I've seen a job opening for something like it since I got here. (thanks for the reply on the whole semi on-topic thing :yes:)

It doesn't sound like aviation, but anything is better than retail or general jobs. And I might like it, might not :yesnod:
 
Not so much except for the airport job here. Moving to OKC to aim for better jobs and also to get out of some pretty iffy apartments here. GF has educational plans in the city as well. So more tied to OK than a specific city. I have no experience with scheduling and logistics and I don't think I've seen a job opening for something like it since I got here. (thanks for the reply on the whole semi on-topic thing :yes:)

It doesn't sound like aviation, but anything is better than retail or general jobs. And I might like it, might not :yesnod:
I just thought of scheduling and logistics because you said you were good at using computers and figuring stuff out. It's like a big puzzle putting the crews and airplanes together as well as figuring out other trip logistics. It's entry level (at least where I work) but it's pretty high pressure at times.
 
I just thought of scheduling and logistics because you said you were good at using computers and figuring stuff out. It's like a big puzzle putting the crews and airplanes together as well as figuring out other trip logistics. It's entry level (at least where I work) but it's pretty high pressure at times.

Neat! I have been applying to Raytheon in OKC for the ATC training program as a virtual pilot (basically, get paid to fly a sim and act like a real plane for ATC trainees to move around). Unfortunately, each time they just say "not what we're looking for" although I meet their min requirements and preferences. Flight sim experience, private license, degree related. They still have openings like 6 months later and still refuse to look at me.

Sounds like an interesting job. Do you do logistics work yourself or is that a bit too personal?
 
Neat! I have been applying to Raytheon in OKC for the ATC training program as a virtual pilot (basically, get paid to fly a sim and act like a real plane for ATC trainees to move around). Unfortunately, each time they just say "not what we're looking for" although I meet their min requirements and preferences. Flight sim experience, private license, degree related. They still have openings like 6 months later and still refuse to look at me.

Sounds like an interesting job. Do you do logistics work yourself or is that a bit too personal?


I don't do it myself. I'm a pilot there, and have been for a long time. I've seen the people hired for the position. Some have relevant experience, some are from the local aviation college and I've seen some who seem to have no aviation background at all.
 
I don't do it myself. I'm a pilot there, and have been for a long time. I've seen the people hired for the position. Some have relevant experience, some are from the local aviation college and I've seen some who seem to have no aviation background at all.

Ah, okay then :D

I think it's weird that some people I see working in aviation have no experience or idea about anything aviation too. And that somehow someone like me who is into it and truly wants to do it and has at least some experience with it can't get an interview past a part time gig at a small airport. Technically I run the airport myself on the weekends, which I think is very valuable to have on my resume, but it's part time and on the weekends mostly, so I'm not sure if employers would take me seriously. And I can't get more hours or a full time thing here at the airport, I've asked about it.

I was hoping this last application for something along the same lines as what I do now would at least get me an interview but I guess not. There wasn't an experience requirement, just a preference of a year or so at least.

Some people on here have laughed at my degree from ERAU and said it's worthless, some say "get a real degree". Okay, sure, with what money that I'm not making? And what is a "real degree"? I went to Fallon, NV for a contract job (through my dad's contact) and met a couple top gun pilots. They said it basically doesn't matter what degree you have for anything, his was in elementary education or something along those lines. I think that this degree gives me a good all-round knowledge level for doing a good variety of jobs in the aviation industry. I just have to get my foot into one door for a large scale job and I think I'll be set.
 
Some people on here have laughed at my degree from ERAU and said it's worthless, some say "get a real degree". Okay, sure, with what money that I'm not making? And what is a "real degree"? I went to Fallon, NV for a contract job (through my dad's contact) and met a couple top gun pilots. They said it basically doesn't matter what degree you have for anything, his was in elementary education or something along those lines. I think that this degree gives me a good all-round knowledge level for doing a good variety of jobs in the aviation industry. I just have to get my foot into one door for a large scale job and I think I'll be set.
It's true that it only takes one person to hire you and then you will have "experience". I don't have an aviation degree but I know plenty of people who do, who are both pilots and in ops, and I don't think their degree has been a hindrance. In some ways I think the main benefit is the networking possibilities it opens up as you get out of school, but I guess that's true only if you use them.
 
It's true that it only takes one person to hire you and then you will have "experience". I don't have an aviation degree but I know plenty of people who do, who are both pilots and in ops, and I don't think their degree has been a hindrance. In some ways I think the main benefit is the networking possibilities it opens up as you get out of school, but I guess that's true only if you use them.

I got the job here at the airport through POA actually, on the last day it was open. I got an aviation sales position through a friend at the campus in OKC and worked there 7 months (then got terminated without notice). I've been swapping stories and doing favors and getting business cards and basically helping out pilots who come through but I haven't gotten anything other than a couple decent contacts. Some people say they worked years on the line to get any contacts that got them somewhere too. I don't expect it to happen or rely on it but it'd be nice while I'm building up resume time and experience here at the airport.
 
Ah, okay then :D

I think it's weird that some people I see working in aviation have no experience or idea about anything aviation too. And that somehow someone like me who is into it and truly wants to do it and has at least some experience with it can't get an interview past a part time gig at a small airport.
i don't think it's wierd at all. We see the same thing with railroads. There are people who want a job and there are people who want to do their hobby full time. If you are running a business you want employees who are there to work.
 
i don't think it's wierd at all. We see the same thing with railroads. There are people who want a job and there are people who want to do their hobby full time. If you are running a business you want employees who are there to work.
It's not weird at all. I've known quite a few people who did well in aviation. 85 or 90 percent had a degree and quite a few were ex military pilots as well. Not only do you want them to work but as important is their ability to learn quickly and apply it correctly.
 
If you don't want as much competition when looking for a job, don't pick something which sounds cool or which other people pay big money to do as a hobby!
 
If you don't want as much competition when looking for a job, don't pick something which sounds cool or which other people pay big money to do as a hobby!

That is true :p I just have a hard time staying motivated to get into a job like that when I'm pretty respectable and the herd tramples me each time. I am still looking though :yes:
 
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