The real entry-level jobs are disappearing

jsstevens said:
But automation is going to be the real killer in the long run.
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What's funny (to me) is that the idea that automation will replace workers, resulting in more leisure time is one of the selling points of communism. All those who picture idyllic scenes of sitting on the front porch sipping tea don't realize that leisure time means you're not working and therefore not making money. Even now when it's staring them in the face, the useful idiots cannot connect the dots on where they've been led.

Automation will replace repetitive jobs. But the question is, in a high tech environment, what do unskilled workers do?
 
bflynn said:
What's funny (to me) is that the idea that automation will replace workers, resulting in more leisure time is one of the selling points of communism. All those who picture idyllic scenes of sitting on the front porch sipping tea don't realize that leisure time means you're not working and therefore not making money. Even now when it's staring them in the face, the useful idiots cannot connect the dots on where they've been led.

Automation will replace repetitive jobs. But the question is, in a high tech environment, what do unskilled workers do?
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That is the question. There are many folks for whom a creative, figure-things-out kind of career is never going to be an option. They don't have the talent. And yet, they are fine people and formerly they could build a good life by working in productive but repetitive jobs. Assembly lines, office typing pools, telephone operator, etc.

Unless we fundamentally change how we distribute the resources we have, (which I'm really not an advocate of) they're in trouble for the long run. But a system where everybody gets a decent life without work has never seemed to be possible because many people (and hey, I might be one) won't work unless they feel the pain of not working.

It's not an easy problem.

John
 
I find it interesting that 40-50 years ago the belief was that through the miracles of computers and automation, the 40-hour work week would be no more. We would be working 20 hours a week at most. It would free up time for more leisure activities and cause less stress.

Instead, the opposite has happened, we're working more hours than ever, and have less free time and more stress. Also, to keep people employed we now have the most convoluted corporate heirarchies you can imagine. We have managers of managers, and auditors of the auditors. We've created these pointless jobs just to give ourselves something to do.

Also, does it seem to anyone else that number of chief executive jobs has increased dramatically over the last few years? I remember hearing about a CEO, CFO, & CTO/CIO maybe 10 years ago... now at my company we have... CEO, COO, CFO, CIO, CTO, CMO (chief medical officer), and various others that I can't even think of right now. Am I just starting to pay more attention to *shudder* the business side of things?
 
Fredbob711 said:
I find it interesting that 40-50 years ago the belief was that through the miracles of computers and automation, the 40-hour work week would be no more. We would be working 20 hours a week at most. It would free up time for more leisure activities and cause less stress.

Instead, the opposite has happened, we're working more hours than ever, and have less free time and more stress. Also, to keep people employed we now have the most convoluted corporate heirarchies you can imagine. We have managers of managers, and auditors of the auditors. We've created these pointless jobs just to give ourselves something to do.

Also, does it seem to anyone else that number of chief executive jobs has increased dramatically over the last few years? I remember hearing about a CEO, CFO, & CTO/CIO maybe 10 years ago... now at my company we have... CEO, COO, CFO, CIO, CTO, CMO (chief medical officer), and various others that I can't even think of right now. Am I just starting to pay more attention to *shudder* the business side of things?
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The assumption that the 20 hour work week was based on was that prices of goods would stay the same. Instead cost savings were translated into price reductions (or increased value-depends on the product. Cars cost more but an entry level car is much nicer and safer than then).

What business are you in that you have a CMO? My company has CEO, COO, CFO and CTO. We're ~150 employees but we've had all these Chiefs since the beginning. Although originally the CFO/COO were combined.

John
 
bflynn said:
What's funny (to me) is that the idea that automation will replace workers, resulting in more leisure time is one of the selling points of communism. All those who picture idyllic scenes of sitting on the front porch sipping tea don't realize that leisure time means you're not working and therefore not making money. Even now when it's staring them in the face, the useful idiots cannot connect the dots on where they've been led.

Automation will replace repetitive jobs. But the question is, in a high tech environment, what do unskilled workers do?
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The answer is "farm". Urban Agriculture supported by the waste product of the production of electricity. The raising and harvesting of fruits and vegetables is still primarily a human activity. We are still the best machines for the job. There is also no need, therefore no increase in efficiency, by mechanizing it for 24/7 capability. Farming will always be "occasional" work because nature needs time to grow things.
 
Everskyward said:
Good point. But I don't think there are really any dream jobs out there. That's why they are called "jobs". Sometimes being on the outside looking in is far different from the view in the opposite direction.
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We used to hire a lot of young people fresh out of college who would say in the interview that they had wanted to be a police officer all their life, invest six months of training in them, and six months after that, they get bitter and start having issues because they come to the realization that it isn't like it is on TV. When you think about it, that explains a lot about what has been going on around the country recently.
 
I pretty much think I've got a 'dream job'.:dunno: I can live:work at a 9:1 ratio, and when I am at work, I am typically having fun doing things I'm pretty good at. The only real burden to my job is that I take on the responsibility and liability for the lives of others, and that's not bad if you know what you're doing.
 
Henning said:
I pretty much think I've got a 'dream job'.:dunno: I can live:work at a 9:1 ratio, and when I am at work, I am typically having fun doing things I'm pretty good at. The only real burden to my job is that I take on the responsibility and liability for the lives of others, and that's not bad if you know what you're doing.
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Me, too.

Self employment, for all of its downsides (liability, regulatory environment, long hours, etc.), still offers more personal satisfaction than any other human endeavor.

What I build is mine. When I work, I work for me. If something is done wrong, I have the power to fix it. All the things that drive you nuts, in the corporate world, are resolved in the world of self-employment.

If I could only automate housekeeping... :dunno:
 
asechrest said:
Ditto here. The dream jobs I envisioned came after a successful college career, which never came to fruition, thanks to...me. I make a decent living anyway, working a job I never envisioned. I imagine a great big chunk of everyone else is in the same boat.

I tried to talk to my brother about this. He waffled around for years after college, trying to find something he "really loved" to do. Turns out that there are few jobs that involve "staying up late playing games on the computer". Don't know how many times I told him to just do something, earn a living, work hard and advance, and get his fun on the side.
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I agree. I'm a CPA. I'm not a CPA because I
always wanted to work 60-80 hours a week, gain weight in a sedentary career, and deal with PIA clients. I'm a CPA because I'm good at it. It's rewarding to do something that you do well. It allows me to live a lifestyle that includes flying for fun.

It could be worse.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Me, too.

Self employment, for all of its downsides (liability, regulatory environment, long hours, etc.), still offers more personal satisfaction than any other human endeavor.

What I build is mine. When I work, I work for me. If something is done wrong, I have the power to fix it. All the things that drive you nuts, in the corporate world, are resolved in the world of self-employment.

If I could only automate housekeeping... :dunno:
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For some people. I was self employed twice in my life. The first was a small engine repair business that I started, the second time was as an airplane mechanic. I did not feel that personal satisfaction that I know you do.
 
Maxmosbey said:
For some people. I was self employed twice in my life. The first was a small engine repair business that I started, the second time was as an airplane mechanic. I did not feel that personal satisfaction that I know you do.
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Same here. I was self-employed (although I had two partners) when I was fairly young and I decided I would never do it again. It was a job, only one that you didn't feel that you could walk away from with two weeks notice.
 
Everskyward said:
Same here. I was self-employed (although I had two partners) when I was fairly young and I decided I would never do it again. It was a job, only one that you didn't feel that you could walk away from with two weeks notice.
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Self employment is definitely NOT for everyone. I would be the first to say that.

It also has to be the right "fit" with your skillset, or it will just be agony and frustration.

Most days, the plus side outweighs the negative. I'm finishing up the new Wright Brothers room as I type this, and -- after personally renovating 20 other rooms (in this hotel), many down to the studs and back -- I can't express the smug satisfaction it gives me when that first guest checks out, after seeing what we have created here.

That's the fun of it. Delighting guests, surprising them with amenities and service that they don't normally experience. It makes me forget the bazillion hours and horrible expense of building this place.
:)
 
I don't do self employment either, too much of a PITA. I just act as a parasite on the rich.
 
Everskyward said:
Same here. I was self-employed (although I had two partners) when I was fairly young and I decided I would never do it again. It was a job, only one that you didn't feel that you could walk away from with two weeks notice.
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Most people don't understand that point, but the upside could be so great that it is worth that aggravation if you've got it right.
 
PaulS said:
Most people don't understand that point, but the upside could be so great that it is worth that aggravation if you've got it right.
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There was an upside. I made more than I would have as an employee and I learned I was not cut out to be a business owner.
 
Everskyward said:
There was an upside. I made more than I would have as an employee and I learned I was not cut out to be a business owner.
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Of course, but I was talking about making enough money so you never have to work again upside.
 
PaulS said:
Of course, but I was talking about making enough money so you never have to work again upside.
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Why do you suppose it is your option to never work again? When God wants you to quit producing, you'll die. Until then, you are on the job.
 
Henning said:
Why do you suppose it is your option to never work again? When God wants you to quit producing, you'll die. Until then, you are on the job.
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You are all about things and stuff Henning, things and stuff, we've been through this before, it's not about things and stuff.
 
Everskyward said:
There was an upside. I made more than I would have as an employee and I learned I was not cut out to be a business owner.
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The other benefits outnumber the negatives you experienced, imo.

Even though ti all needs to get down, I decide, not some dweeb, son-in-law of the owner, with the IQ of a garden rodent.

My income becomes what I make it, not what some bookkeeper decided I was worth.

I choose how, when, and where to go tomarket, not the whims of far off board members, and bean counters.

The benefits far outweigh the negatives, which is why democrats are so intent on destroying small business.

Democrats HATE for people to find any kind of happiness on their own.
 
PaulS said:
Of course, but I was talking about making enough money so you never have to work again upside.
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You miss the point entirely.

Being happily self employed means that you never "work", and therefore there's no desire to stop doing it.

To have the goal of not working is entirely backwards, most likely unachievable, and, if you were to achieve it, you would probably be miserable.

The most effed up people I know are people who don't feel they have to work.
 
PaulS said:
You are all about things and stuff Henning, things and stuff, we've been through this before, it's not about things and stuff.
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What does working have to do with things and stuff? What you do for the things and stuff isn't related to your duty to God, your real job.
 
Jay Honeck said:
You miss the point entirely.

Being happily self employed means that you never "work", and therefore there's no desire to stop doing it.

To have the goal of not working is entirely backwards, most likely unachievable, and, if you were to achieve it, you would probably be miserable.

The most effed up people I know are people who don't feel they have to work.
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I didn't miss the point at all, don't knock it unless you've tried it.
 
Henning said:
What does working have to do with things and stuff? What you do for the things and stuff isn't related to your duty to God, your real job.
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Oh Henning, that's not what we were talking about. And you are about things and stuff, your metric for "satisfying God" is all about things and stuff and Mother Earth and a progressive mantra about how we are destroying her. Things and stuff, people are expendable in your mantra, a parasite, certainly not created in God's image.
 
People obviously have widely varying philosophies about the value of "work". :D

I like the idea of not having to work at a job. Just because you don't have a job doesn't mean you end up doing nothing. All it means is that you are not beholden to the people who are paying you, whether that be your employer or your customers.

But then I and various others are talking about the end of our careers. The OP is talking about the beginning.
 
Everskyward said:
People obviously have widely varying philosophies about the value of "work". :D

I like the idea of not having to work at a job. Just because you don't have a job doesn't mean you end up doing nothing. All it means is that you are not beholden to the people who are paying you, whether that be your employer or your customers.

But then I and various others are talking about the end of our careers. The OP is talking about the beginning.
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I think some get so caught up in having to make a buck that they forget you can work without getting paid. I would certainly call what a woman or a man, who chooses to stay home for children, does work, even though they may not see it that way.
 
PaulS said:
Oh Henning, that's not what we were talking about. And you are about things and stuff, your metric for "satisfying God" is all about things and stuff and Mother Earth and a progressive mantra about how we are destroying her. Things and stuff, people are expendable in your mantra, a parasite, certainly not created in God's image.
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Wow, you have no reading comprehension skills whatsoever. It appears most people tend to get lost after three connected thoughts. Interesting.
 
Everskyward said:
How can you even have an opinion about the pros and cons of the business I owned? I have not revealed anything much about it. :rofl:
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Sometimes you post as if you are a sad example of a lost liberal, searching for something meaningful to say so you can pretend to be significant.
 
Henning said:
The truth shall set you free.
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How would you know? You've spent so much time reinventing reality to make yourself the center of the universe, you lost touch with truth a long time ago.
 
Florida Cracker said:
Sometimes you post as if you are a sad example of a lost liberal, searching for something meaningful to say so you can pretend to be significant.
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Usually I don't respond to you but this time all I can say is... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
 
jsstevens said:
The assumption that the 20 hour work week was based on was that prices of goods would stay the same. Instead cost savings were translated into price reductions (or increased value-depends on the product. Cars cost more but an entry level car is much nicer and safer than then).
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In addition, there is just way more stuff people want to buy now. It also seems to be stuff that doesn't last as long, so you buy it again and again. In my Dad's day, he bought a phone for the house and it lasted for decades. Now we buy phones every couple of years it seems. Who in 1965 spent anything on a personal computer? Who would have known what a "toy hauler" was, or what in the world you would put in it?
 
I think electronics are better and last longer then olden days. I remember my 1970s electronic toys, drop them once and they were dead. People buy new phones because they want them, not that their old ones stopped working. The number of things to buy and the science of creating want in humans has advanced something fierce.
 
Electronics were very expensive back then compared to now. I found some old receipts and was amazed how much a cassette tape recorder cost. Also a pocket calculator.
 
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