The real entry-level jobs are disappearing

overdrive148 said:
That is true :p I just have a hard time staying motivated to get into a job like that when I'm pretty respectable and the herd tramples me each time. I am still looking though :yes:
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Not trying to be too harsh, but I don't know what "I'm pretty respectable" means. Respect is earned.

Motivation comes and goes. Discipline doesn't. Try being motivated every day after doing something for 20 or more years. Some days you really just don't give a rat's... It's discipline that gets you through those days. Not emotions of motivation.

Just go do it. It doesn't get any better. Well, it sometimes does, but don't count on it. Work is work. It isn't play. You can make it fun along the way, but bottom line is a job or owning a business is work.

The herd can't keep up over the long haul with a person with perseverance. Trust me on that one. It's hard to see it at your age, but perseverance beats out most of the competition eventually.

Read up on Franklin. Or Ford. They weren't the smartest guys in their generation. They were the most persistent and focused. Congress tried to take Ford's company away from him claiming he wasn't smart enough to run that big of a business. He pointed out that's why he bought a newfangled device called a "telephone". He could reach any expert in the country in less than two hours. (Sometimes the expert didn't have a phone and had to drive to town after someone came and got them to tell them the town operator had a phone call for them from Henry Ford.)

Get 'er done, as Larry the Cable Guy (who's name is neither Larry, nor was he a cable guy), says. ;)
 
overdrive148 said:
That is true :p I just have a hard time staying motivated to get into a job like that when I'm pretty respectable and the herd tramples me each time. I am still looking though :yes:
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Hypothetical question: If someone put a gun to your head and said get a job in aviation in the next month or I'll pull the trigger. Do you think you could do it or should they just go ahead and pull the trigger now since it's impossible?
 
Alexb2000 said:
Hypothetical question: If someone put a gun to your head and said get a job in aviation in the next month or I'll pull the trigger. Do you think you could do it or should they just go ahead and pull the trigger now since it's impossible?
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I always get a kick out of that hypothetical. The important part of it isn't based on whether you succeed or not, it's based in how hard you would try.
 
Henning said:
Most people my age got their entry level job and work experience while still in high school. I started working for a car dealer when I was 11, added a welding fabrication job when I was 12, and added an engine machine shop job when I was 15. I graduated High School working three jobs, most of my friends had one or two. School is not there to prepare you for life, you have to do that on your own. Nobody is going to hand you jack ****, you have to get out there, bust ass and hustle.
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And all three of those options are prohibited by law now. My sons couldn't even get jobs in a pool store until they turned 18 because of the chlorine.

John

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
jsstevens said:
And all three of those options are prohibited by law now. My sons couldn't even get jobs in a pool store until they turned 18 because of the chlorine.

John

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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They were prohibited by law then as well. The law is by no means an impermeable barrier, it just means you get paid in cash.
 
Most of us don't get our dream job. You have to take what you can get, if you can't get what you want. Maybe it is time to look at something that is outside of aviation. You can always work it on the side, if it means so much to you. Bottom line, there are a lot of people in the same circumstances, and there always has been, myself included, so this is not a new phenomenon. So you are going to have to do something, or sit around wishing I guess.
 
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Henning said:
Most people my age got their entry level job and work experience while still in high school. I started working for a car dealer when I was 11, added a welding fabrication job when I was 12, and added an engine machine shop job when I was 15. I graduated High School working three jobs, most of my friends had one or two. School is not there to prepare you for life, you have to do that on your own. Nobody is going to hand you jack ****, you have to get out there, bust ass and hustle.
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Henning,

I keep trying to teach my step kids this, and they think i am nuts.
 
sferguson524 said:
Henning,

I keep trying to teach my step kids this, and they think i am nuts.
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I think a job for kids is fine, but school is more important, 10 to 15 hours a week is plenty, much more than that and studies suffer.
 
denverpilot said:
Not trying to be too harsh, but I don't know what "I'm pretty respectable" means. Respect is earned.

Motivation comes and goes. Discipline doesn't. Try being motivated every day after doing something for 20 or more years. Some days you really just don't give a rat's... It's discipline that gets you through those days. Not emotions of motivation.

Just go do it. It doesn't get any better. Well, it sometimes does, but don't count on it. Work is work. It isn't play. You can make it fun along the way, but bottom line is a job or owning a business is work.

The herd can't keep up over the long haul with a person with perseverance. Trust me on that one. It's hard to see it at your age, but perseverance beats out most of the competition eventually.

Read up on Franklin. Or Ford. They weren't the smartest guys in their generation. They were the most persistent and focused. Congress tried to take Ford's company away from him claiming he wasn't smart enough to run that big of a business. He pointed out that's why he bought a newfangled device called a "telephone". He could reach any expert in the country in less than two hours. (Sometimes the expert didn't have a phone and had to drive to town after someone came and got them to tell them the town operator had a phone call for them from Henry Ford.)

Get 'er done, as Larry the Cable Guy (who's name is neither Larry, nor was he a cable guy), says. ;)
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Oh, by respectable I mean at least over the minimum qualifications required (a respectable candidate). Maybe not the best choice of words. Still good advice though.

Maxmosbey said:
Most of us don't get our dream job. You have to take what you can get, if you can't get what you want. Maybe it is time to look at something that is outside of aviation. You can always work it on the side, if it means so much to you. Bottom line, there are a lot of people in the same circumstances, and there always has been, myself included, so this is not a new phenomenon. So you are going to have to do something, or sit around wishing I guess.
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Yeah, realizing that now.
 
The argument, which travels in circles, due to progressive demands that don't reflect reality, even a little, that employers OWE workers doing entry level jobs, a "living" wage, is as much to blame for disappearing entry level jobs as anything else.

We hire numerous minimum wage, part time, hourly, sometimes pay for production, instead of hourly wage, workers and a couple of common behaviors follow the workers who fill them.

Lack of interest in holding down a job - any job. Some workers just naturally can't or won't behave in such a way as to make them valuable workers.

Lack of willingness to work when there is work to do. Sometimes you have to show up to get paid. I know that is a shock to progressives, but the majority of adults working in entry level jobs are doing so because their behavior makes that the only option available to them, based on behavior.

Lack of creative energy to get the job down. Far too many entry level workers have no concept what-so-ever how their part of the job impacts the rest of the mission, thus never behave in such a way as to be a valuable part of the process.

Lack of intellectual where-with-all to accomplish much more than menial work. Public education is FREE and many adults couldn't be bothered as young people, to take advantagge of it.

Lack of passion to accomplish anything. Many entry level workers lack the needed desire to succeed. They just don't care to be that involved in trying to better their life condition.

Lack of willingness to perform at work. Too many entry level workers fail their annual, semi-annual, and quarterly drug tests, which makes them ineligible for other jobs.

Many entry level jobs are disappearing due to the cost of hiring ten people to get the work of five done. If a technological advance makes it possible to buy equipment to do the job traditionally done be people, it costs less, and creates less downtime far too often to ignore technology. Which is why we have so few Conestoga wagon repair shops around.
 
Maxmosbey said:
Most of us don't get our dream job. You have to take what you can get, if you can't get what you want. Maybe it is time to look at something that is outside of aviation. You can always work it on the side, if it means so much to you. Bottom line, there are a lot of people in the same circumstances, and there always has been, myself included, so this is not a new phenomenon. So you are going to have to do something, or sit around wishing I guess.
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Ditto here. The dream jobs I envisioned came after a successful college career, which never came to fruition, thanks to...me. I make a decent living anyway, working a job I never envisioned. I imagine a great big chunk of everyone else is in the same boat.

I tried to talk to my brother about this. He waffled around for years after college, trying to find something he "really loved" to do. Turns out that there are few jobs that involve "staying up late playing games on the computer". Don't know how many times I told him to just do something, earn a living, work hard and advance, and get his fun on the side.
 
Entry level jobs are easy to find as far as minimum wage type work. Entry as far as something beyond scrub this, stock that, fill out this, are all who you know. Looking back instead of working full time and graduating college debt free I shoulda just taken the loan and played the whole internship college club BS. Cause thats where everyone from my classes got their jobs. Either their dad/uncle/whoever got them a job somewhere or they got an offer from an internship.

My frustration in the job market is pay. Not to mention all the smug people who are like be happy you have a job 47 mexicans would fight to the death for your position. I'm happy to work doesn't mean I have to like it when my company experiences growth in all sectors and gives a record dividend only to turn around freeze pay, take away a weeks vacation,and "restructure" our benefits but hey we get "reward points" that if I save up for 2 years I can buy a company branded toaster from the company store.(this year I can get a mousepad!).
Luckily union talk is rising and companies are starting to get scared into paying a decent wage at least in my business at our competitor my positions pay jumped almost 30% and almost right away our company is telling us pay is going up soon.
 
Worst entry-level job video attached...

Enjoy.

David
 

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falconkidding said:
Entry level jobs are easy to find as far as minimum wage type work. Entry as far as something beyond scrub this, stock that, fill out this, are all who you know. Looking back instead of working full time and graduating college debt free I shoulda just taken the loan and played the whole internship college club BS. Cause thats where everyone from my classes got their jobs. Either their dad/uncle/whoever got them a job somewhere or they got an offer from an internship.

My frustration in the job market is pay. Not to mention all the smug people who are like be happy you have a job 47 mexicans would fight to the death for your position. I'm happy to work doesn't mean I have to like it when my company experiences growth in all sectors and gives a record dividend only to turn around freeze pay, take away a weeks vacation,and "restructure" our benefits but hey we get "reward points" that if I save up for 2 years I can buy a company branded toaster from the company store.(this year I can get a mousepad!).
Luckily union talk is rising and companies are starting to get scared into paying a decent wage at least in my business at our competitor my positions pay jumped almost 30% and almost right away our company is telling us pay is going up soon.
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Bingo.

Company profits are at an all time high in this country. Yet wages are either stagnant or dropping. A lot of full time jobs have been converted to either part time or contracted out to other companies.

When I have minimum wage jobs in high school, I hated them. Boring, meaningless work. But I did them. It taught me to get an education and work my way outta there towards something better.

But these days the part time jobs have no means for advancement in many cases.
 
UngaWunga said:
Bingo.

Company profits are at an all time high in this country. Yet wages are either stagnant or dropping. A lot of full time jobs have been converted to either part time or contracted out to other companies.

When I have minimum wage jobs in high school, I hated them. Boring, meaningless work. But I did them. It taught me to get an education and work my way outta there towards something better.

But these days the part time jobs have no means for advancement in many cases.
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Not many years ago you could work your way thru college. No more! It's absurd what schools now charge for an undergrad degree! Meanwhile the president and tenured profs are making , in many cases, far more than they are worth! ( not to mention the football coach! Crazy crazy incomes ! (What does the new coach at Michigan make.....for instance?!) and in many of these company's that pay lousy wages, the top five people are raking in big big bucks, far above what they are worth. In the last twenty years it's gotten totally out of hand.
 
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Yep, education has become a business as well, there to maximize profits.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Not many years ago you could work your way thru college. No more! It's absurd what schools now charge for an undergrad degree! Meanwhile the president and tenured profs are making , in many cases, far more than they are worth! ( not to mention the football coach! Crazy crazy incomes ! (What does the new coach at Michigan make.....for instance?!) and in many of these company's that pay lousy wages, the top five people are raking in big big bucks, far above what they are worth. In the last twenty years it's gotten totally out of hand.
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Well, we're not seeing that for professors, tenured or not, around here. Maybe in the ivy league private schools, but not the state schools. In fact, the teachers at my college worked for two years without a contract because the state refused to meet with them. They lost a lot of good teachers that way.

What is raising the costs of college is all the "extras" that are being included in modern campuses to attract students. Fancy cafeterias, bigger stadiums, gyms, dorms nicer than your first house... All that stuff costs money, and is paid mostly by tuition. Colleges have to compete with each other, and that's one of the many ways they do it. And its raising costs dramatically.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Not many years ago you could work your way thru college. No more! It's absurd what schools now charge for an undergrad degree! Meanwhile the president and tenured profs are making , in many cases, far more than they are worth!
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I don't know what our president makes, but tenured professors here (small private university) don't make anywhere near what administrators make at large universities elsewhere. $50-70K tops, in an area where the cost of living is 15-20% above the national average, is barely enough to make ends meet.
 
High seniority elementary school teachers in the Chicago area can make north of $100k.
 
Maxmosbey said:
Most of us don't get our dream job. You have to take what you can get, if you can't get what you want. Maybe it is time to look at something that is outside of aviation. You can always work it on the side, if it means so much to you. Bottom line, there are a lot of people in the same circumstances, and there always has been, myself included, so this is not a new phenomenon. So you are going to have to do something, or sit around wishing I guess.
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Good point. But I don't think there are really any dream jobs out there. That's why they are called "jobs". Sometimes being on the outside looking in is far different from the view in the opposite direction.
 
Everskyward said:
Good point. But I don't think there are really any dream jobs out there. That's why they are called "jobs". Sometimes being on the outside looking in is far different from the view in the opposite direction.
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Ohh, there are dream jobs out there, you have to know what you want, figure out how to get it then persevere, luck helps.
 
UngaWunga said:
Well, we're not seeing that for professors, tenured or not, around here. Maybe in the ivy league private schools, but not the state schools. In fact, the teachers at my college worked for two years without a contract because the state refused to meet with them. They lost a lot of good teachers that way.

What is raising the costs of college is all the "extras" that are being included in modern campuses to attract students. Fancy cafeterias, bigger stadiums, gyms, dorms nicer than your first house... All that stuff costs money, and is paid mostly by tuition. Colleges have to compete with each other, and that's one of the many ways they do it. And its raising costs dramatically.
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At most state schools, university's its big bucks. You must be in the boonies.
 
PaulS said:
Ohh, there are dream jobs out there, you have to know what you want, figure out how to get it then persevere, luck helps.
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But by the time you figure out what you want and persevere you may find out it wasn't what you thought it was.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
At most state schools, university's its big bucks. You must be in the boonies.
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It depends on where, and how much money you bring in. Even in the big city uni where I used to teach, I knew one tenured prof who made only 50K. To have a six figure income you had to be a PI with a sizable grant, or an administrator. Administrators always make more.
 
UngaWunga said:
A lot of full time jobs have been converted to either part time or contracted out to other companies.
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We have done exactly that this year. That 30th hour of work all of a sudden costs us about $3,000.
 
UngaWunga said:
Well, we're not seeing that for professors, tenured or not, around here. Maybe in the ivy league private schools, but not the state schools. In fact, the teachers at my college worked for two years without a contract because the state refused to meet with them. They lost a lot of good teachers that way.

What is raising the costs of college is all the "extras" that are being included in modern campuses to attract students. Fancy cafeterias, bigger stadiums, gyms, dorms nicer than your first house... All that stuff costs money, and is paid mostly by tuition. Colleges have to compete with each other, and that's one of the many ways they do it. And its raising costs dramatically.
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What does that say about what we are teaching our children about life?
 
Everskyward said:
Good point. But I don't think there are really any dream jobs out there. That's why they are called "jobs". Sometimes being on the outside looking in is far different from the view in the opposite direction.
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The dream jobs are the ones that can provide all you need in exchange for the minimum amount of your life. Awesome jobs are ones that add to your life while taking the least.
 
Everskyward said:
Good point. But I don't think there are really any dream jobs out there. That's why they are called "jobs". Sometimes being on the outside looking in is far different from the view in the opposite direction.
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Yes! I have a good friend who whenever somebody (me) complained about work would say "That's why they call it work."

I've had a very nice career (that still continues) in a field I enjoy. And it's still work a significant amount of the time.

John
 
Some are moving offshore and many are disappearing because of automation.

There is no one factor that is causing jobs in the US to disappear. Automation, taxes, offshore competition and a lagging economy all have take their toll. But automation is going to be the real killer in the long run.

John
 
dans2992 said:
High seniority elementary school teachers in the Chicago area can make north of $100k.
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Queue up the discussion on why people think teachers shouldn't be well paid, in a country when someone who runs around with a leather ball can be a multimillionaire.
 
UngaWunga said:
Queue up the discussion on why people think teachers shouldn't be well paid, in a country when someone who runs around with a leather ball can be a multimillionaire.
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Simply because a lot of people are willing to do it. Same reason commuter pilots are paid jack squat.
 
overdrive148 said:
Off topic but still curious, how long did you spend learning what you use now for work, and would you recommend a career in tech? Can't say that I have as much of a passion for it as much as I do for aviation but I haven't actually done much in the way of coding or programming or etc but I do think that kind of stuff is neat. And apparently a lot of places are trying to hire IT or tech people in general.
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Watch "The Knack". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo My parents say that was me as a kid. In high school I knew how to generate EMI long before I had ever heard of the subject. As far as how long it took me to learn what I use at work today? I'm still learning it. And helping invent it. 39 years in my specialty and counting.

Jimmy cooper said:
Not many years ago you could work your way thru college. No more! It's absurd what schools now charge for an undergrad degree! Meanwhile the president and tenured profs are making , in many cases, far more than they are worth! ( not to mention the football coach! Crazy crazy incomes ! (What does the new coach at Michigan make.....for instance?!) and in many of these company's that pay lousy wages, the top five people are raking in big big bucks, far above what they are worth. In the last twenty years it's gotten totally out of hand.
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When I was a member of the industry advisory group for the EE school at Washington State University I was privy to the pay scale for faculty. Not individuals, but the scale as a whole. I took one look and decided that if I wanted a hobby in retirement going back for a Masters and PhD would be fun, but right now I couldn't afford the pay cut. What professors did you have in mind? As far as football coaches go, remember, they typically are not paid out of the regular school budget, but from the athletics program which brings in the big bucks.
 
Ghery said:
Watch "The Knack". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo My parents say that was me as a kid. In high school I knew how to generate EMI long before I had ever heard of the subject. As far as how long it took me to learn what I use at work today? I'm still learning it. And helping invent it. 39 years in my specialty and counting.



When I was a member of the industry advisory group for the EE school at Washington State University I was privy to the pay scale for faculty. Not individuals, but the scale as a whole. I took one look and decided that if I wanted a hobby in retirement going back for a Masters and PhD would be fun, but right now I couldn't afford the pay cut. What professors did you have in mind? As far as football coaches go, remember, they typically are not paid out of the regular school budget, but from the athletics program which brings in the big bucks.
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So your saying that tenured profs in major schools, not just " Ivy League" don't make large salarys and coaches at same type schools who make millions a year are justified while many worthy students can't afford admittance?! In many instances the profs don't even show up but rather they have an "assistant" teach the class! It's totally out of control. If you don't have at least a masters, you shouldn't be teaching anyway.
 
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jsstevens said:
I've had a very nice career (that still continues) in a field I enjoy. And it's still work a significant amount of the time.
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Same here. There are obviously some jobs that I would prefer to other jobs, but they are all jobs.
 
jsstevens said:
Some are moving offshore and many are disappearing because of automation.

There is no one factor that is causing jobs in the US to disappear. Automation, taxes, offshore competition and a lagging economy all have take their toll. But automation is going to be the real killer in the long run.

John
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Automation is the biggie. It's all really irrelevant. The only thing that matters is we have a lot of people sitting around who need something productive to do. What is that going to be? That is what we need to find an answer to. I suggest urban agriculture.
 
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