Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

wayne said:
Except that in many parts of the US the AC is still running at night. It's not uncommon for it to be in the upper 70's with humidity in the mid to upper 90's at 5 am in Atlanta during the summer.
Click to expand...
Once the sun goes down, AC doesn't work nearly as hard. Even with AC still running, the load is a fraction of what it is during the day.
 
Velocity173 said:
I read a study that said with our current infrastructure, the grid can support roughly 25% total EVs. With only 2% on the road right now, we’re a long way off from overloading the system.
Click to expand...

And it's going to be a long time until we're at 25%, by which point the grid will be able to support more, etc... But, some of those things I was talking about earlier mean that we don't need to make up 100% of the difference solely by upgrading the grid.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It's a lot easier for A/C to keep up with a lower duty cycle when the sun isn't shining on the house, though...



And in that instance, I would expect utilities to incentivize things that would better meet their ability to supply energy. For example, a workplace adding solar and car chargers... That way the employees wouldn't necessarily need to charge at home at night.
Click to expand...

If they can. When I was looking at the KIA Nero plug-in, the dealership I'd usually use told me that they didn't stock the EV's or plug-ins because they lacked adequate electric service to charge them. They gave me the names of several other dealerships. It seemed kind of strange to me, but it's hard to come up with a reason why they'd turn away the business. Maybe the local feed is near its limit and the power company won't upgrade them.

I imagine that there are many businesses whose electric usage is near the maximum they have available to them. Adding a few charging stations could easily exceed it for many businesses.

On a related note, I have a friend with a plug-in hybrid who's been crying crocodile tears lately because most of the free charging stations she used to use are no longer free. I find that more than a bit odd. The thought of charging for free never would have occurred to me unless it were built into the sale price of the car. Maybe it makes sense in that subculture, but to me it seems bizarre.

Rich
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Once the sun goes down, AC doesn't work nearly as hard. Even with AC still running, the load is a fraction of what it is during the day.
Click to expand...

But there's still the cool-down problem. The electro-mechanical parts of the generating system, the transmission wires, and the transformers all need periods of low load to shed the heat they built up during high load. Running them at or near capacity 24/7 would cause premature failure of the windings in generators and substations, and of the transmission wires; and additionally could cause the transformers to catch fire or explode.

None of these problems are insurmountable, of course. But they will require upgrades at all stages of the system. I also don't think it would be possible without nuclear power, which many people are simply too ignorant terrified of to make it politically feasible.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
If they can. When I was looking at the KIA Nero plug-in, the dealership I'd usually use told me that they didn't stock the EV's or plug-ins because they lacked adequate electric service to charge them. They gave me the names of several other dealerships. It seemed kind of strange to me, but it's hard to come up with a reason why they'd turn away the business. Maybe the local feed is near its limit and the power company won't upgrade them.
Click to expand...

Hmmm. I don't buy that excuse - They don't take anything to charge unless you're driving them, and test drives aren't going to put a lot of miles on. I would think that a dealership could easily get away with simple L1 charging (plugging into a standard outlet) - That adds around 4 miles of range per hour it's plugged in, so easily 50 miles/day just while the dealership is closed. Shut the interior lights off and you've shed enough load to plug in the car.

More likely, that's a convenient excuse for not selling EVs because they know that they won't make nearly the amount of maintenance dollars after the sale with an EV. This sort of thing is one of the big things holding back EV adoption: Dealers don't want to spend extra money to teach their salespeople how to sell them and send their techs to training to learn how to service them, when they'll end up making less money over the life of the car because of the drastically reduced maintenance.

On a related note, I have a friend with a plug-in hybrid who's been crying crocodile tears lately because most of the free charging stations she used to use are no longer free. I find that more than a bit odd. The thought of charging for free never would have occurred to me unless it were built into the sale price of the car. Maybe it makes sense in that subculture, but to me it seems bizarre.
Click to expand...

Most of the plug-in hybrids, because they have the gas engine to back up the battery, have lower-power onboard chargers. Both my Fusion Energi and my Volt, for example, have 3.3kW chargers. My BMW i3 (BEV), on the other hand, had a 9.6kW charger.

When it comes to charging stations, in many places they're billed by the hour, not by energy used (kilowatt-hours). Here in Wisconsin, for example, under current law you can't sell power by the kWh unless you're a utility that's overseen by the Public Service Commission, so ALL EV charging stations are billed by the hour.

When you put those two together, it means that the cost per kilowatt hour to charge your plug-in hybrid is astronomical. Even the ones that charge $1/hr, that comes to 30 cents/kWh, over 2.5x the rate I pay at home. And, at that rate, you might as well just buy and burn gasoline. On the Volt, for example, 30 cents/kWh is about equivalent to $3.89/gal gas, which is about $1/gal higher than the pump prices are here right now.

And, if her experience has been anything like mine... Well, you just HATE when your engine kicks on, because you've gotten used to the smooth, quiet experience of electric driving. So, that means maybe those free charging stations going away means she's driving with the engine running more frequently than before.

Now, if she was just freeloading... Well, maybe she needs to realize that the 43 cents per hour she was saving probably aren't worth crying over.
 
RJM62 said:
Not necessarily. Even load-insensitive power sources like nuclear run hotter during high demand. The load insensitivity relates to fuel consumption, not wear on the electromechanical components. Constant operation under high load will accelerate failure.

Local grids also need cool-down periods (especially the transformers). Because most residential communities weren't designed for the kind of draw that a whole neighborhood of EV owners would use, the constant draw of air conditioning during the day and EV's at night could cause transformer failures and fires. On hot nights, the combined draw could also overload the feeders, requiring rolling brownouts or blackouts.

None of these problems are likely to come into play while EV's remain a niche product. But if they were to catch on in a major way, it would necessitate upgrades at every stage of the electric generation and distribution system.

I really don't see any way to handle the demand without expanded nuclear power, as well as major upgrades in the distribution infrastructure at all levels.

Rich
Click to expand...

I think so solve the EV charging problem we will need a few things:
1. Local generation (wind/solar) as close to the consumption point as possible. Basically, turn every roof into a solar panel.
2. Community storage at the pad. Handle spikes, load overlaps up to some power draw for roughly ten minutes for non-EV charging.
3. Smart/shared power management at the pad. The pad will need to control, cycle between the home EV charges.
4. Increase home energy conservation. To many houses are poorly insulated.

Tim
 
Local Tesla forum contributor had a genius of an idea....

All of the Buc-Ees locations need Superchargers. If their business model is to keep the road traveler in their store longer shopping for snacks and drinks, a 30-40 supercharge is just the ticket.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I would think that a dealership could easily get away with simple L1 charging (plugging into a standard outlet) - That adds around 4 miles of range per hour it's plugged in, so easily 50 miles/day just while the dealership is closed.
Click to expand...

I think it’s been established that L1 charging draws about 11 amps. Hardly enough to push a dealership over some imagined electric use threshold. We typically charge overnight, which is enough to go from about 0 miles to around 55 miles EV range in our Clarity.

So I agree it was a contrived excuse.
 
At the (obvious) risk of a hijack...

Honda Clarity’s come with a 120v L1 charger to plug into any 15A conventional outlet.

Some brave soul* had the brilliant idea to make an adapter to plug it into a 240v outlet. The idea was that the charger was likely a “dual-voltage” device, since then Honda could use the same charger with a different plug in worldwide markets where 240v or equivalent is common. And it apparently works - charging the Clarity in about 1/2 the time, with no apparent ill effects or unusually high temps.

I went ahead and made an adapter to use a 240v outlet in our hangar. I just haven’t screwed up the courage to try it yet. If I do - and survive - I’ll let you know!


*Probably related to the first fellow who thought eating an oyster might be a good idea!
 
FastEddieB said:
Some brave soul* had the brilliant idea to make an adapter to plug it into a 240v outlet. The idea was that the charger was likely a “dual-voltage” device, since then Honda could use the same charger with a different plug in worldwide markets where 240v or equivalent is common. And it apparently works - charging the Clarity in about 1/2 the time, with no apparent ill effects or unusually high temps.
Click to expand...

Are you on any Clarity forums or Facebook groups? I bet someone out there has already taken the EVSE apart and verified that it's got the right components to handle 240V properly.

I have a JuiceBox Pro in my garage, installed in Dec. 2016 so I've used it with the Fusion Energi, i3, and Volt. It's capable of the full rated 40 amp draw, which is 9.6 kW. The i3 had a 7.2kW onboard charger, the Volt and Fusion had 3.3kW. I've also used it with a Tesla Model 3, which can actually take everything it can give.

The JuiceBox is connected to my WiFi and I have an app for monitoring and controlling it. It's even "portable" - It can be lifted off its bracket, unplugged, and taken with you if you're going to the boondocks and will have an RV 240V plug around (NEMA 14-50). It's a really nice unit, I highly recommend it, if you don't want to risk the portable one that came with your Clarity: https://emotorwerks.com/store/residential/juicebox-pro-40-smart-40-amp-evse-with-24-foot-cable

I also have a truly portable L1/L2 combo EVSE with several adapters, but it maxes out at 16A even on 240V. That's a little more than the Volt will do, but it's nice for using in the hangar and such, so that I can use Chevy's app to come home to a pre-warmed/pre-cooled car.

It's very nice to have the ability to charge at 240V... But certainly not required. I hope you make it work, one way or another! :)
 
I am on a Clarity forum. I think some have tried to analyze the components in the charging cable, but get to a level where some parts are “potted” and as such are difficult to view directly.
 
My flight school owner just got the 35k version of model 3. So I got to sit in it(first time) and ask him some questions. There is a Tesla “dealership “ not far from where i live but I have yet to visit it. It’s quite nice inside. Roomy. Comfy seats. I don’t mind the lack of front instruments, but I didn’t drive it. It does give you a sense of more space with a lot of greenhouse around you. White interior helps too. He said it’s got more space than his Honda CRV. He gets more than EPA’s estimate out of it. Mostly drives on autopilot +5 speed limit. Likes acceleration. I’m not too thrilled on the outside design of it, but that’s a personal opinion

He hasn’t set up l2 chargers anywhere yet, so uses a paid charger near his daily destination.
 
Kind of expensive for a parts bin car tho.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk
 
my perspective is skewed. I live, work, shop, socialize all in the same city and nothing (besides the airport my plane is based in) exceeds 5 miles. My daily commute is 1/8 mile.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 
FastEddieB said:
At the (obvious) risk of a hijack...

Honda Clarity’s come with a 120v L1 charger to plug into any 15A conventional outlet.

Some brave soul* had the brilliant idea to make an adapter to plug it into a 240v outlet. The idea was that the charger was likely a “dual-voltage” device, since then Honda could use the same charger with a different plug in worldwide markets where 240v or equivalent is common. And it apparently works - charging the Clarity in about 1/2 the time, with no apparent ill effects or unusually high temps.

I went ahead and made an adapter to use a 240v outlet in our hangar. I just haven’t screwed up the courage to try it yet. If I do - and survive - I’ll let you know!


*Probably related to the first fellow who thought eating an oyster might be a good idea!
Click to expand...

Clipper Creek has a 16 amp 240 volt EVSE for $400. Don't know about you, but I feel much better having a UL listed EVSE connected to the appropriate circuit attached to my house.
 
Daniel L said:
my perspective is skewed. I live, work, shop, socialize all in the same city and nothing (besides the airport my plane is based in) exceeds 5 miles. My daily commute is 1/8 mile.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

You could probably get by with a golf cart, lol.
 
Daniel L said:
my perspective is skewed. I live, work, shop, socialize all in the same city and nothing (besides the airport my plane is based in) exceeds 5 miles. My daily commute is 1/8 mile.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

And that, friends, is the ultimate in rapid transit!
 
Someone at Audi made a big marketing mistake.

Audi is introducing their ELV and has named it the E-Tron.

1280px-Audi_e-tron%2C_Paris_Motor_Show_2018%2C_IMG_0442.jpg



However, in a nearby automotive market, France, étron has an entirely different meaning. I’ll leave you folks to look it up in Google Translate.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Someone at Audi made a big marketing mistake.

Audi is introducing their ELV and has named it the E-Tron.

1280px-Audi_e-tron%2C_Paris_Motor_Show_2018%2C_IMG_0442.jpg



However, in a nearby automotive market, France, étron has an entirely different meaning. I’ll leave you folks to look it up in Google Translate.
Click to expand...
Or pure genius


That is, unless the automaker intended that we translate e-tron as, "the Audi that's as fast as, well, you know."
 
@AggieMike88

Funny, assumption is that they will market the car in Europe. I would not be surprised if they used names/badges specific to separate markets. e-tron likely plays of the Tron movies in the USA.

Tim
 
RJM62 said:
Maybe it makes sense in that subculture, but to me it seems bizarre.

Rich
Click to expand...

I think that's exactly it. It's the same subculture that thinks that a universal basic income (a/k/a "welfare for everyone") is a good idea.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Not to mention, it would make it much easier for families to get by with one car of their own, should they choose to continue owning rather than using the RoboTaxis.

I've thought about that a lot. It'd be nice to have one car that would take my wife to work, come home, take me to work, go out and give rides for money, pick up my wife and take her home, pick me up and take me home.
Click to expand...

If you are going to do that, you might as well just take a taxi everywhere.
 
deonb said:
Would be even nicer to be able to fly somewhere and load your luggage in you car a day or two before, send it off, then have your car pick you up from the airport when you arrive.
Click to expand...

But then, how would you get to the airport?
 
PPC1052 said:
But then, how would you get to the airport?
Click to expand...

With the second self-driving Tesla of course!

Actually my ideal scenario would be a self-driving RV to send down before and meet me, and a self-driving car to drop me off at the airport.
 
tspear said:
I think so solve the EV charging problem we will need a few things:
1. Local generation (wind/solar) as close to the consumption point as possible. Basically, turn every roof into a solar panel.
2. Community storage at the pad. Handle spikes, load overlaps up to some power draw for roughly ten minutes for non-EV charging.
3. Smart/shared power management at the pad. The pad will need to control, cycle between the home EV charges.
4. Increase home energy conservation. To many houses are poorly insulated.

Tim
Click to expand...

Actually, to do it without nuclear, we'd need to add on a few additional things:

5. Outlaw cities and relocate everyone to rural areas. Cities use far more electricity than they could possibly generate from wind and solar. They have buildings that are taller than they are wide, making rooftop solar panels unworkable; they have little or no open space for windmills; and they usually are surrounded by suburbs full of people who might object to their homes being razed to make room for solar panels and windmills.

6. Outlaw eating. Most open space in rural areas is used for agriculture. To convert that space to solar and wind generation sufficient to power all of society, we'd have to either ban eating or move to a "Soylent Green" sort of solution.

7. Clear all the forests. Even after we convert all available farmland to wind and solar power generation, it's doubtful that we'd have enough acreage to meet energy demands -- especially with all those Teslas sucking up juice. Fortunately, all we have to do is deforest the whole world. As an added benefit, we could eat all the pesky animals we displace, thus helping to temporarily ameliorate the problems resulting from converting all the farmland to wind and solar power generation.

8. Impose staggered day / night schedules on all humans. Divide every day into three 8-hour shifts, with one third of society starting their days at the beginning of every shift. That helps to even out power demands by spreading consumption more evenly over the available hours. This way we wouldn't have all factories drawing power at the same time, all Teslas being charged at the same time, and so forth.

It can be done. All it takes is some creative thinking.

Rich
 
It's a lot simpler. Sort of a mix of a New Green Deal and Azimov's "The Caves of Steel". You just need a crisis(real or made up is ok), a revolution(a deadly kind, not the "we elected some different president" kind), and a new world order. Then: kill off the unbelievers, ban personal(and most other) transportation, herd everyone into the cities, ban(for normal people) all "luxury" items, food... You know, like "communism", just better(at it)
 
deonb said:
With the second self-driving Tesla of course!

Actually my ideal scenario would be a self-driving RV to send down before and meet me, and a self-driving car to drop me off at the airport.
Click to expand...

Oh, but the one I send ahead is going to be an X (or, eventually, a pickup) towing a travel trailer. :D

RJM62 said:
Actually, to do it without nuclear, we'd need to add on a few additional things:

5. Outlaw cities and relocate everyone to rural areas. Cities use far more electricity than they could possibly generate from wind and solar. They have buildings that are taller than they are wide, making rooftop solar panels unworkable; they have little or no open space for windmills; and they usually are surrounded by suburbs full of people who might object to their homes being razed to make room for solar panels and windmills.

6. Outlaw eating. Most open space in rural areas is used for agriculture. To convert that space to solar and wind generation sufficient to power all of society, we'd have to either ban eating or move to a "Soylent Green" sort of solution.

7. Clear all the forests. Even after we convert all available farmland to wind and solar power generation, it's doubtful that we'd have enough acreage to meet energy demands -- especially with all those Teslas sucking up juice. Fortunately, all we have to do is deforest the whole world. As an added benefit, we could eat all the pesky animals we displace, thus helping to temporarily ameliorate the problems resulting from converting all the farmland to wind and solar power generation.

8. Impose staggered day / night schedules on all humans. Divide every day into three 8-hour shifts, with one third of society starting their days at the beginning of every shift. That helps to even out power demands by spreading consumption more evenly over the available hours. This way we wouldn't have all factories drawing power at the same time, all Teslas being charged at the same time, and so forth.

It can be done. All it takes is some creative thinking.
Click to expand...

Oh puhleeze. Here's a map of how much area we'd need to fill with solar panels to satisfy the entire needs of the country:

4edc50bc92a2fde177a762811535af55.png
We have plenty of room for that... And lots to spare for wind too. And we still have plenty of hydro.

I wouldn't mind more nuclear, but that situation is what it is. Hopefully we'll invent something even better. Necessity being the mother and all that.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Oh, but the one I send ahead is going to be an X (or, eventually, a pickup) towing a travel trailer. :D



Oh puhleeze. Here's a map of how much area we'd need to fill with solar panels to satisfy the entire needs of the country:

View attachment 74635
We have plenty of room for that... And lots to spare for wind too. And we still have plenty of hydro.

I wouldn't mind more nuclear, but that situation is what it is. Hopefully we'll invent something even better. Necessity being the mother and all that.
Click to expand...

The problem is transmission. The source has to be as close to the areas of need as possible to reduce transmission loss. A farmer can provide all or most of their own power using a combination of wind and solar, and many do. Manhattan, not so much.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
The problem is transmission. The source has to be as close to the areas of need as possible to reduce transmission loss. A farmer can provide all or most of their own power using a combination of wind and solar, and many do. Manhattan, not so much.

Rich
Click to expand...

And storage...
We have farmers with solar panels for their pumps. They “store” their power on the grid. Meaning they get a credit all winter long when they’re not pumping, and then they eat up that credit 2x or 3x when pumping. So they would need even larger arrays and a way to store the energy when it’s not being used for months at a time.
 
RJM62 said:
The problem is transmission. The source has to be as close to the areas of need as possible to reduce transmission loss. A farmer can provide all or most of their own power using a combination of wind and solar, and many do. Manhattan, not so much.

Rich
Click to expand...
The facts suggest otherwise- This shows where Lincoln, NE gets its electricity.
https://www.les.com/about-les/facilities
The Buckeye Wind Energy Center is in the middle of Kansas, nowhere near Lincoln. The Arbuckle Mountain Wind Farm is 50 miles south of Oklahoma City, closer to Texas than Kansas. I'd say they have the transmission problem solved, the same as they have done other types of electrical power plants. I'm sure that Manhattan, KS gets it energy in a similar fashion. Even New York City gets electricity from Canada (mostly hydroelectric), and it isn't particularly close to the border.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
The facts suggest otherwise- This shows where Lincoln, NE gets its electricity.
https://www.les.com/about-les/facilities
The Buckeye Wind Energy Center is in the middle of Kansas, nowhere near Lincoln. The Arbuckle Mountain Wind Farm is 50 miles south of Oklahoma City, closer to Texas than Kansas. I'd say they have the transmission problem solved, the same as they have done other types of electrical power plants. I'm sure that Manhattan, KS gets it energy in a similar fashion. Even New York City gets electricity from Canada (mostly hydroelectric), and it isn't particularly close to the border.
Click to expand...

The losses are still significant, especially when you consider the increased demands that electric cars will place on the grid:

State_Losses.png

Again, I'm not opposed to electric cars. I just suspect that given the scant attention being paid to increasing supply and improving distribution, they'll be a victim of their own success.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
I just suspect that given the scant attention being paid to increasing supply and improving distribution, they'll be a victim of their own success.

Rich
Click to expand...

Almost a decade ago I attended multiple Distributech conferences on behalf of the US Navy. There were two major focuses even back then:
1. How to use local storage to reduce spinning capacity (extra capacity to handle variable load).
2. How to handle charging electric cars.

Even back then the technical, and regulatory questions were being asked. In general, I think most people felt neither will be addressed until consumers feel the pain caused by the grid bending under the load.

Tim
 
RJM62 said:
The losses are still significant, especially when you consider the increased demands that electric cars will place on the grid:

State_Losses.png

Again, I'm not opposed to electric cars. I just suspect that given the scant attention being paid to increasing supply and improving distribution, they'll be a victim of their own success.

Rich
Click to expand...
It's not going to get worse than it is now. In fact, decentralizing the grid somewhat from a few big power plants will improve the situation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top