Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

EppyGA said:
Guys like this will give the Tesla a bad name.
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It's the one compelling feature that makes me wish I had one. Nobody else seems as close (or reckless, depending on your view of autopilot vs other motorists) as Tesla on this.

If I could get credible autopilot in a gas car with some sort of comfy seats, I'd likely own it.
 
Stingray Don said:
The price is the price. You can get a few hundred off for a demo vehicle, but that’s about it.
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Hmmm...

To me that reads, I got this 1 dollar bill.. I usually get 10 bucks for it but for you I'll take 9.99.....

I guess when a little competition steps in that will change..

Don't take me wrong, if you are happy with that price then I am happy for you. Personally I would still rather drive the '65. Please tell me that it has the 396 engine in it.!!
 
Zeldman said:
Hmmm...

To me that reads, I got this 1 dollar bill.. I usually get 10 bucks for it but for you I'll take 9.99.....

I guess when a little competition steps in that will change..

Don't take me wrong, if you are happy with that price then I am happy for you. Personally I would still rather drive the '65. Please tell me that it has the 396 engine in it.!!
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Yeah, competition is always a good thing. It will be interesting to see how Tesla responds and if they retain their pricing model.

The 65 has the original 327 350 hp engine, so just a small block.
 
Zeldman said:
Hmmm...

To me that reads, I got this 1 dollar bill.. I usually get 10 bucks for it but for you I'll take 9.99.....

I guess when a little competition steps in that will change..

Don't take me wrong, if you are happy with that price then I am happy for you. Personally I would still rather drive the '65. Please tell me that it has the 396 engine in it.!!
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You aren't one of those people that would feel better if someone marked the price of a $5 item up to $10 so they could sell it to you at a discount for $7 are you?
I like no-haggle prices, if I think the price is fair. And I think Tesla prices are very fair. They make very little profit, which is why most car companies are not yet selling high quality electric cars. They just cost too much to develop and build.
 
JOhnH said:
...And I think Tesla prices are very fair. They make very little profit, which is why most car companies are not yet selling high quality electric cars. They just cost too much to develop and build.
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They make no profit. In fact, the more cars Tesla sells the more money the company loses.
 
JOhnH said:
You aren't one of those people that would feel better if someone marked the price of a $5 item up to $10 so they could sell it to you at a discount for $7 are you?
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Walmart has that market.... roll back prices. Which sends me to the locally owned grocery store. If the lettuce looks old, I can get a lower price. Negotiation skills are my wife's specialty.
 
GRG55 said:
They make no profit. In fact, the more cars Tesla sells the more money the company loses.
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That's not true. Gross profit has been positive for Tesla since shortly after the introduction of the Model S in 2012. Gross profit last year was a little over $4 Billion, last quarter was $921 million.

The reason Tesla doesn't make a profit overall is that they're investing heavily in growth. They're following the Amazon model.
 
Stingray Don said:
Just picked my new model 3! Dual motor, long range, full self-driving capability. Can’t wait to take a road trip with the autopilot. The drive or fly question just got more difficult.
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That's the exact set of options and colors that I'd buy. Maybe one of these days...

What are you setting up for charging at home?
 
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I drive 200 miles 3-4 times a week. My home charger gets 29mph and I always have my 90% charge when I wake up.


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Stingray Don said:
Just picked my new model 3! Dual motor, long range, full self-driving capability. Can’t wait to take a road trip with the autopilot. The drive or fly question just got more difficult.

View attachment 78017
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I literally saved $20k in aviation related expenses the first year owning my Dual motor 3. Have made dozens of trips were driving wouldn’t even have been a consideration. Bay Area to Washington a few times, Bay to Reno, Tahoe, Scottsdale, multiple trips to LA, lost count of all the trips to and from the valley. Those Valley trips cost me about $110 each time I flew my archer there in gas. now it’s $7 in electricity. autopilot and superchargers make it enjoyable and it’s soooo cheap. 36k miles on my car after 1 year. Only mx I did was rotate tires once at 21k. I figure tires and other mx (like cleaning supplies) and fuel costs roughly the same per mile. ~.04 each.


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TheGolfPilot said:
I literally saved $20k in aviation related expenses the first year owning my Dual motor 3. Have made dozens of trips were driving wouldn’t even have been a consideration. Bay Area to Washington a few times, Bay to Reno, Tahoe, Scottsdale, multiple trips to LA, lost count of all the trips to and from the valley. Those Valley trips cost me about $110 each time I flew my archer there in gas. now it’s $7 in electricity. autopilot and superchargers make it enjoyable and it’s soooo cheap. 36k miles on my car after 1 year. Only mx I did was rotate tires once at 21k. I figure tires and other mx (like cleaning supplies) and fuel costs roughly the same per mile. ~.04 each.


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So your Tesla makes you fly less? You are hereby banned and must take that car to the crusher immediately. So sad. ;)
 
Stingray Don said:
Just picked my new model 3! Dual motor, long range, full self-driving capability. Can’t wait to take a road trip with the autopilot. The drive or fly question just got more difficult.
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Nice, congrats! :)

As far as drive or fly, I'm really looking forward to when full self driving has the regulatory approval to not have a driver at all... Then, I'll be able to send the car ahead and meet me at my destination when I land there! :D
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Nice, congrats! :)

As far as drive or fly, I'm really looking forward to when full self driving has the regulatory approval to not have a driver at all... Then, I'll be able to send the car ahead and meet me at my destination when I land there! :D
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JOhnH said:
And I think Tesla prices are very fair. They make very little profit, which is why most car companies are not yet selling high quality electric cars. They just cost too much to develop and build.
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Very little profit indeed.

Tesla lost $408 million in the second quarter, despite a record 95,356 deliveries, a 50% increase from the first quarter.

The consensus across financial and automotive analysts is that going forward, every EV sold by all manufacturers will be at a substantial loss, well over $10,000. The automakers are lobbying Congress to extend or even increase subsidies.

This is in spite of the fact the income of US Tesla owners is double that of the average. More specifically, a Tesla Model 3 owner household makes $128,140 per year. The Tesla Model S owner has an average household income of $153,313, over three times the median US income of $47,060 for the 2019 first quarter as reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2018/11/tesla-owner-demographics/amp/

Giving taxpayer subsidies to the demographic that buy EVs is a freebie they could easily forego. The full $7,500 giveaway that buyers of eligible EVs receive costs taxpayers a billion dollars for every 133,334 vehicles sold.

If the purchase of an EV makes sense to prospective buyers, a subsidy should not be necessary, yet every manufacturer is placing maximum pressure on Congress to extend the eligibility period, and Tesla is lobbying to make the full $7,500 freebie apply to purchases regardless of manufacturer sales figures.
 
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3393RP said:
Very little profit indeed.

Tesla lost $408 million in the second quarter, despite a record 95,356 deliveries, a 50% increase from the first quarter.

The consensus across financial and automotive analysts is that going forward, every EV sold by all manufacturers will be at a substantial loss, well over $10,000. The automakers are lobbying Congress to extend or even increase subsidies.

This is in spite of the fact the income of US Tesla owners is double that of the average. More specifically, a Tesla Model 3 owner household makes $128,140 per year. The Tesla Model S owner has an average household income of $153,313, over three times the median US income of $47,060 for the 2019 first quarter as reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

Giving taxpayer subsidies to the demographic that buy EVs is a freebie they could easily forego. The full $7,500 giveaway that buyers of eligible EVs receive costs taxpayers a billion dollars for every 133,334 vehicles sold.

If the purchase of an EV makes sense to prospective buyers, a subsidy should not be necessary, yet every manufacturer is placing maximum pressure on Congress to extend the eligibility period, and Tesla is lobbying to make the full $7,500 freebie apply to purchases regardless of manufacturer sales figures.
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Did you know the oil industry gets in the neighborhood of 14 billion a year in subsidies? To say electric vehicles should get no subsidies and while a large percentage of the cost of an ice car is subsidized is sort of hypocritical

People like to point out the ev subsidies because the money goes directly to the consumer

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TheGolfPilot said:
Did you know the oil industry gets in the neighborhood of 14 billion a year in subsidies?
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I have heard that but I've never seen any evidence. What are some of the specifics of these subsidies? I recall someone saying those so-called subsidies were actually legal tax deductions for things like R&D that are available to all, including EV manufacturers. Do you know of any actual subsidies?
 
JOhnH said:
I have heard that but I've never seen any evidence. What are some of the specifics of these subsidies? I recall someone saying those so-called subsidies were actually legal tax deductions for things like R&D that are available to all, including EV manufacturers. Do you know of any actual subsidies?
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I doubt we are get a good answer for this since it is so political- when politics walks through the door, truth flies out the window.
Or, if you prefer, politicians tell the truth like a Jedi- it is true, from a certain point of view.
Here's a couple of pints of view:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...er-year-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-abolish-them
https://www.forbes.com/sites/drilli...about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/#552057a6e1cd
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I doubt we are get a good answer for this since it is so political- when politics walks through the door, truth flies out the window.
Or, if you prefer, politicians tell the truth like a Jedi- it is true, from a certain point of view.
Here's a couple of pints of view:
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...er-year-on-fossil-fuel-subsidies-abolish-them
https://www.forbes.com/sites/drilli...about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/#552057a6e1cd
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Both of those articles proved my point.
 
JOhnH said:
Both of those articles proved my point.
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All the oil subsidies are masked as tax breaks. Things like getting to write off drilling costs and reduced rates on royalties.

But that’s all the federal tax credit is anyway, a tax break.


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TheGolfPilot said:
All the oil subsidies are masked as tax breaks.
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I will agree with you to the extent that I agree that our Federal Tax code is a disaster. But I disagree that oil companies get any special subsidies. They follow the bloated, corrupt and unjust/unjustifiable tax code even though it takes an army of accountants and lawyers. It should NOT take an army of accountants and lawyers to follow the law.
 
JOhnH said:
I will agree with you to the extent that I agree that our Federal Tax code is a disaster. But I disagree that oil companies get any special subsidies. They follow the bloated, corrupt and unjust/unjustifiable tax code even though it takes an army of accountants and lawyers. It should NOT take an army of accountants and lawyers to follow the law.
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The tax strategies of all large public companies are based on what's legal. Amazon, Microsoft, and Apple don't drill for oil or sell it, but their effective tax rate is less than 50% of the official corporate tax rate on profits of 25%.

Labeling tax avoidance as subsidies is disingenuous.
 
JOhnH said:
I will agree with you to the extent that I agree that our Federal Tax code is a disaster. But I disagree that oil companies get any special subsidies. They follow the bloated, corrupt and unjust/unjustifiable tax code even though it takes an army of accountants and lawyers. It should NOT take an army of accountants and lawyers to follow the law.
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But I like having a job.... ;)
 
3393RP said:
The tax strategies of all large public companies are based on what's legal. Amazon, Microsoft, and Apple don't drill for oil or sell it, but their effective tax rate is less than 50% of the official corporate tax rate on profits of 25%.

Labeling tax avoidance as subsidies is disingenuous.
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But that rules they are using to avoid the taxes are made by them, and for them. End of the day, I was given $7500 from the feds in tax incentives. $2500 from the state in the form of a check and $3000 in the form of a check from my county to drive a car that is better in every metric (especially when an airplane is a second form of transportation) than any other car on the market. Given that a little more than 65% of what I make goes to a government entity of one form or another, I don’t really feel bad about getting a little back.


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3393RP said:
Very little profit indeed.

Tesla lost $408 million in the second quarter, despite a record 95,356 deliveries, a 50% increase from the first quarter.

The consensus across financial and automotive analysts is that going forward, every EV sold by all manufacturers will be at a substantial loss, well over $10,000. The automakers are lobbying Congress to extend or even increase subsidies.
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Again... Growth model. For Tesla, at least. They've invested an awful lot in battery production to create economies of scale that allow them to sell the cars at a profit. Meanwhile, I have heard that GM loses $10K per Bolt. But, that's because GM is buying the batteries from LG. With GM being near the front of the non-Tesla pack when it comes to EVs, they're probably taking a bath on batteries as the battery companies (like LG) are trying to recoup their own R&D costs as quickly as possible.

Giving taxpayer subsidies to the demographic that buy EVs is a freebie they could easily forego. The full $7,500 giveaway that buyers of eligible EVs receive costs taxpayers a billion dollars for every 133,334 vehicles sold.

If the purchase of an EV makes sense to prospective buyers, a subsidy should not be necessary, yet every manufacturer is placing maximum pressure on Congress to extend the eligibility period, and Tesla is lobbying to make the full $7,500 freebie apply to purchases regardless of manufacturer sales figures.
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Tesla is already well down the tax credit expiration slope. If you buy a new Tesla today, the credit is only $1875, and it will go away entirely at the end of the year.

Frankly, I'm with Tesla on this issue. Either make it $7500 for everybody until a defined date, or eliminate it. It was intended to encourage development, but with the way it was structured, it is now penalizing those companies (including GM, who's only one quarter behind Tesla on the phase-out) that invested in EV R&D early on, and rewarding foot-draggers like Toyota. In fact, at this point it's mostly rewarding foreign companies instead of American companies. So, I'd be fine with ditching it entirely.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
As far as drive or fly, I'm really looking forward to when full self driving has the regulatory approval to not have a driver at all... Then, I'll be able to send the car ahead and meet me at my destination when I land there! :D
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OR - Hertz/National/Avis will just send the car to whatever airport you land at and have it automatically return when you are done!
 
TheGolfPilot said:
But that rules they are using to avoid the taxes are made by them, and for them. End of the day, I was given $7500 from the feds in tax incentives. $2500 from the state in the form of a check and $3000 in the form of a check from my county to drive a car that is better in every metric (especially when an airplane is a second form of transportation) than any other car on the market. Given that a little more than 65% of what I make goes to a government entity of one form or another, I don’t really feel bad about getting a little back.


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Those checks you received were subsidies. Legitimate tax deductions are not subsidies.
 
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