Tesla Model 3 - Now I get the hype.

wayne said:
You have some cheap power. That's about $0.0425 per kWh; 310 miles should be ~100 kWh. We get close to that rate outside of summer, but it's higher in the summer. All the AC costs for keeping things cool here in Hotlanta in the summer drive up the rates. Georgia Power also has a plan for EV users where the night time rate is only 1 cent per kWh, but the peak time from 2 pm - 7 pm is 20 cents per kWh. :eek: Guess when the AC needs to run the most. :( Plus if the electric oven is needed for dinner.... If the Tesla batteries weren't so expensive one could do that rate and charge the battery at night for $0.01/kWh and then use it during the 2-7 pm peak rate time. :cool:
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The electric rate at my tier is $.057 per kWh and the LR model 3 has a 75 kWh battery (unless I am mistaken). We are fortunate to have cheap rates.
 
wayne said:
Georgia Power also has a plan for EV users where the night time rate is only 1 cent per kWh, but the peak time from 2 pm - 7 pm is 20 cents per kWh. :eek: Guess when the AC needs to run the most. :(
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Sounds like a good case for solar.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Yeah, cause payback on solar panels/voltage converters/batteries is so great, lol.
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If it drops your cost per kWh to charge the car down to 1 cent, and you don't have to pay the extra $$$ to run the AC in the afternoon, the payback would be a fair bit quicker than normal.

Some people have gotten the payback on solar down into the 5-year range. Considering that it'll last much longer than that and pay off handsomely after the payback time, that's not a bad way to go.
 
Roughly $1.20 to go 35 miles for me. Free charge at work to go another 35 miles. Gas will never get 70 miles for only a $1.20. That kind of savings adds up.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Again, that was not my experience at all. Autopilot did a stellar job even in the rain, at night - In fact, I would say it did a better job of holding the lane than I'd have been able to. There were a lot of distracting reflections with the various city lights reflecting off the shiny wet road and I was blown away at how well it did. I'd have thought it wouldn't have worked in those circumstances at all too, and I was really impressed.
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Second this - autopilot is WAY better at holding a lane than I am - even in heavy rain at night.

It’s also obvious that it can “see” better than I can - I will lose the lane markings in fog/rain when AP can obviously still follow and draw them. I have to slow down to be able to monitor it.
 
Favorable tax treatments are not subsidies.

They may or may not be good policy, but they are not subsidies.
 
Velocity173 said:
These fees are only going to get worse.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/arti...w-charge-fees-for-electric-vehicles#gs.5v8rw8
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Hopefully they don't get worse. They are needed to fund the transportation infrastructure costs, that which would normally be covered by gas taxes. Some states have been charging well above what the average driver would pay in gas taxes, and that's not equitable. Even with that EV cars are still not paying into what the Feds would get for gas taxes, just what the states collect.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Those gauges aren't telling you what you think they are. Most automotive gauges now are essentially dummy lights. They'll show a nice pre-selected value any time they're anywhere in the normal range, and a completely different (and bad) value if the associated system fails. They aren't really analog any more, and they won't alert you any earlier than a dummy light. Alternator's weak, and system voltage is 13 volts? Your gauge will still happily show 14.5 volts until the alternator fails entirely.



In my *other* Tesla. :D
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SoonerAviator said:
Just about every modern car will alert you if something falls outside of the normal range. It will throw an idiot light or warning chime/display a message/etc. You'll likely never notice the gauge drop before the car alerts you to the problem. Like I said, I get the desire for the instruments. I still have a periodic scan of my dash instruments every few minutes because that's how I learned to drive. However, if the gauge stays centered on "normal" when the battery voltage is 12V or 14.4V, what good does it do you to have it? Same with engine temp. If it's running 170 or 190, but the needle stays in the same spot, what information is it providing you? I agree with the filler cap icon, as I drive rentals monthly and have for over a decade of work travel. However, I don't really need it to be "in view" on the dash at all times, and I mentioned that having the speedometer and fuel gauge/range are really the only two indicators I need to see. If I'm driving the '67 Vette, I want the full gamut of oil pressure/engine temp/voltage gauges because I don't want to trash a 427cu in engine because the oil pump failed, or have it overheat while sitting in traffic on a hot day.
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I suppose it depends on the car.

I do see the needles move. Nissan Armada, 2019 model, so it should be reasonably modern. I see the voltage and water temperature needles move. Oil pressure is somewhat out of sight so I'm not going to comment on that. I was concerned initially because the voltage was on the low side, but it does move between about 13 and 14 V. The scale is a little odd on it.
 
tspear said:
when compared to his previous paid off BMW 7 Series. He showed my the spread sheet; when you drive that much, OpEx is brutal on a gas car. He had a roughly $600 MX bill on the BMW every month for just scheduled work; and one larger scheduled bill once a year.
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It's hard to imagine a more expensive car to maintain than a 7 series or S class Benz. How would his spend sheet compare if he drove a Honda Accord that gets 40mpg? I'd bet the MX on an Accord would be 1/10th that of the 7, maybe less.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
If it drops your cost per kWh to charge the car down to 1 cent, and you don't have to pay the extra $$$ to run the AC in the afternoon, the payback would be a fair bit quicker than normal.

Some people have gotten the payback on solar down into the 5-year range. Considering that it'll last much longer than that and pay off handsomely after the payback time, that's not a bad way to go.
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I would imagine you'd have quite the financial outlay for a bank of solar panels/batteries large enough to run the A/C for 4-5 hours in the heat of the day in GA. 220V x 20A = 4,400watts, or 4.4kWh. So, you'd need a system capable of delivering at least that on a continuous basis for 5-6 hours, whether by a really large solar array or a battery bank sufficiently large to deliver that power. I seriously doubt payback would even be in the 5-7yr range when just trying to get lower electricity during that peak usage rate. Not to mention the cost of replacing battery banks every 8-10 years.

deonb said:
Second this - autopilot is WAY better at holding a lane than I am - even in heavy rain at night.

It’s also obvious that it can “see” better than I can - I will lose the lane markings in fog/rain when AP can obviously still follow and draw them. I have to slow down to be able to monitor it.
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While I haven't driven a vehicle with AP, I'd still imagine that having to have your hands on it to monitor it (and be ready to correct it) would be almost as taxing as just steering it yourself. With aircraft AP, you don't have to worry if it deviates +-20ft here or there as you generally have plenty of time (and vertical/lateral airspace) to correct it when needed. With an automobile on AP, not taking action within a second or two of an AP mistake may put you into a guardrail or oncoming traffic. So maintaining that awareness may still be mentally taxing. Just thinking out loud there.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I would imagine you'd have quite the financial outlay for a bank of solar panels/batteries large enough to run the A/C for 4-5 hours in the heat of the day in GA. 220V x 20A = 4,400watts, or 4.4kWh. So, you'd need a system capable of delivering at least that on a continuous basis for 5-6 hours, whether by a really large solar array or a battery bank sufficiently large to deliver that power. I seriously doubt payback would even be in the 5-7yr range when just trying to get lower electricity during that peak usage rate. Not to mention the cost of replacing battery banks every 8-10 years.



While I haven't driven a vehicle with AP, I'd still imagine that having to have your hands on it to monitor it (and be ready to correct it) would be almost as taxing as just steering it yourself. With aircraft AP, you don't have to worry if it deviates +-20ft here or there as you generally have plenty of time (and vertical/lateral airspace) to correct it when needed. With an automobile on AP, not taking action within a second or two of an AP mistake may put you into a guardrail or oncoming traffic. So maintaining that awareness may still be mentally taxing. Just thinking out loud there.
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Using autopilot in the Tesla is about as exhausting as watching Netflix. You look out the window and every once in a while you have to interact with it to put a different show on or let it know you are still there.
When the road gets weird, like construction, you pay a little more attention and even take control of the car. On a long drive construction makes up a very small percentage of the total driving. I don’t think people realize how exhausting hours and hours of steering and speed micro adjustments really is.


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SoonerAviator said:
I would imagine you'd have quite the financial outlay for a bank of solar panels/batteries large enough to run the A/C for 4-5 hours in the heat of the day in GA. 220V x 20A = 4,400watts, or 4.4kWh. So, you'd need a system capable of delivering at least that on a continuous basis for 5-6 hours, whether by a really large solar array or a battery bank sufficiently large to deliver that power. I seriously doubt payback would even be in the 5-7yr range when just trying to get lower electricity during that peak usage rate. Not to mention the cost of replacing battery banks every 8-10 years.



While I haven't driven a vehicle with AP, I'd still imagine that having to have your hands on it to monitor it (and be ready to correct it) would be almost as taxing as just steering it yourself. With aircraft AP, you don't have to worry if it deviates +-20ft here or there as you generally have plenty of time (and vertical/lateral airspace) to correct it when needed. With an automobile on AP, not taking action within a second or two of an AP mistake may put you into a guardrail or oncoming traffic. So maintaining that awareness may still be mentally taxing. Just thinking out loud there.
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Which is exactly my impression of the system. Looking at this vid, it seems more mentally taxing then driving yourself. I’m not the only one. Just read the comments below the vid.

 
Velocity173 said:
Which is exactly my impression of the system. Looking at this vid, it seems more mentally taxing then driving yourself. I’m not the only one. Just read the comments below the vid.

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Yeah, that video illustrates my point. They guy spent a bunch of time tweaking/adjusting settings on the autopilot trying to get going in busy traffic and changing lanes a few times. I would have just hand-driven it until I got in the far left lane, then engaged it to let it maintain speed. The lane changes were slow and letting it wait until a suitable gap opens up may take forever. Adaptive cruise control already does the "keep distance from car ahead", so I guess I'm just not as enamored with it as some others. I drive the 4.5hr trip from Tulsa to FTW and back about once per month, and I've never felt worn out from maintaining my lane. Maybe others suffer from mental exhaustion related to that, I dunno.
 
Bill Jennings said:
It's hard to imagine a more expensive car to maintain than a 7 series or S class Benz. How would his spend sheet compare if he drove a Honda Accord that gets 40mpg? I'd bet the MX on an Accord would be 1/10th that of the 7, maybe less.
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When you are wining and dining customers working multi-million deals; a Honda just does not cut it.

Tim
 
tspear said:
When you are wining and dining customers working multi-million deals; a Honda just does not cut it.

Tim
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That even goes for things like real estate sales people. If someone is driving me around in an inexpensive, boring car I think they aren't very successful or experienced, which infers they aren't very good.
 
JOhnH said:
That even goes for things like real estate sales people. If someone is driving me around in an inexpensive, boring car I think they aren't very successful or experienced, which infers they aren't very good.
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Or, if I'm looking at it, they're charging way too much money on commissions because they're driving a $100K Escalade.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Or, if I'm looking at it, they're charging way too much money on commissions because they're driving a $100K Escalade.
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They all pretty much charge the same thing. It is just that some are more successful than others. I don't really care where they spend their money as long as they do a good job for me. I wouldn't even care if they spent their money on an airplane.
 
JOhnH said:
They all pretty much charge the same thing. It is just that some are more successful than others. I don't really care where they spend their money as long as they do a good job for me. I wouldn't even care if they spent their money on an airplane.
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Well, some also specialize in high-end markets which tends to drive the commission up, but as a percentage it doesn’t change. Realty is often one of those industries where an attractive female often does really well even if she isn’t the greatest Realtor.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Well, some also specialize in high-end markets which tends to drive the commission up, but as a percentage it doesn’t change. Realty is often one of those industries where an attractive female often does really well even if she isn’t the greatest Realtor.
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The higher end market generally has more competition from other realtors, and generally has more savvy buyers. So if they are successful in that market, they are probably pretty competent at their jobs. A nice car reflects that competence.
 
Velocity173 said:
Which is exactly my impression of the system. Looking at this vid, it seems more mentally taxing then driving yourself. I’m not the only one. Just read the comments below the vid.
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That is more of a NOA demo than an AutoPilot demo. NOA (Navigate On Autopilot) is a different mode which is a "self driving" feature that you pay $6000 extra for. It suggest lane changes etc. for you but it's more of a parlor trick at the moment - it doesn't make anything really simpler.

Where the car currently shines is with normal autopilot (the free version) - which is dead simple and reliable. You move to the lane in which you want to travel by yourself, enable AutoPilot, then turn it off an hour later when you get close to your exit.

That part is definitely less taxing by a lot than doing that part of the drive yourself. Especially so in stop-and-go traffic, but at highway speed as well.


SoonerAviator said:
I drive the 4.5hr trip from Tulsa to FTW and back about once per month, and I've never felt worn out from maintaining my lane. Maybe others suffer from mental exhaustion related to that, I dunno.
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Have you ever compared that same trip being the driver vs. being the passenger?
 
deonb said:
Have you ever compared that same trip being the driver vs. being the passenger?
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I get the comparison, but it's not really accurate. I can't be a "passenger" in the Tesla, because I can't disengage from the road/car and read a book or flip through PoA for 4 hours on my phone. Since I would still have to be watching the road and have my hands somewhat near the steering wheel (since it will prompt you periodically anyway), I don't see the advantage. I understand that it's a stepping stone to full-autonomous driving, but I can't imagine just feeling more refreshed after playing systems monitor for 4.5 hours trying to predict when it's going to f-up and try to kill me (that's what aircraft AP's are for)!
 
deonb said:
That is more of a NOA demo than an AutoPilot demo. NOA (Navigate On Autopilot) is a different mode which is a "self driving" feature that you pay $6000 extra for. It suggest lane changes etc. for you but it's more of a parlor trick at the moment - it doesn't make anything really simpler.

Where the car currently shines is with normal autopilot (the free version) - which is dead simple and reliable. You move to the lane in which you want to travel by yourself, enable AutoPilot, then turn it off an hour later when you get close to your exit.

That part is definitely less taxing by a lot than doing that part of the drive yourself. Especially so in stop-and-go traffic, but at highway speed as well.
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Agreed. Additionally, he has AP configured to allow NoA to make lane changes without confirmation. NoA is configurable. I have mine set to ask for confirmation, and it will not attempt a lane change until I hit the turn signal and that seems to work better. Keep in mind that NoA is still in beta, and will continue to improve with future software releases.
 
tspear said:
It is funny how this is news. The number of times cops have run out of gas is not news.
People like to blame tech and something new.

Tim
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I didn’t see anyone blaming the tech. Did you read the article? It clearly stated the car was not charged after a shift and a swing shift officer elected to use the car regardless of its charge status?

Did I miss something?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I didn’t see anyone blaming the tech. Did you read the article? It clearly stated the car was not charged after a shift and a swing shift officer elected to use the car regardless of its charge status?

Did I miss something?
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How many headlines do you see about a cop running out of gas?
And the breathless video showing the cop had 6 miles left on the charge!

Tim

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tspear said:
How many headlines do you see about a cop running out of gas?
And the breathless video showing the cop had 6 miles left on the charge!

Tim

Sent from my SM-J737T using Tapatalk
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It’s news because it’s a new car in the fleet...I believe that article pointed the finger at cop fail. Not car fail.

:-/

Take it how you want I guess. I took it as stupid cops forgot to charge the car and used it anyway and only being news worthy because it’s probably the first time the news caught wind of it. I’m sure there was an article in a paper somewhere a few decades ago about some genius forgetting to put gas in the new horseless buggy the department bought but it’s happened so many times now that it ain’t news anymore. As more EV’s find use in public service these type of human failures won’t be news anymore either...
 
JOhnH said:
The higher end market generally has more competition from other realtors, and generally has more savvy buyers. So if they are successful in that market, they are probably pretty competent at their jobs. A nice car reflects that competence.
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EVERY realtor out this way seems to be driving a leased Audi. Classic herding behavior. You can't tell them apart on your criteria. :confused: o_O
 
GRG55 said:
EVERY realtor out this way seems to be driving a leased Audi. Classic herding behavior. You can't tell them apart on your criteria. :confused: o_O
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Only if by "EVERY" you actually mean "Every single one". But I think you are exaggerating, so even in your scenario, you can cull some of them (if they are diving clunkers, or select them if they are driving with more style).
 
tspear said:
When you are wining and dining customers working multi-million deals; a Honda just does not cut it.

Tim
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If he's that big of a wheel the company should be shuttling him around in a Citation. Less time driving, more time dealing, mo money!
 
Bill Jennings said:
If he's that big of a wheel the company should be shuttling him around in a Citation. Less time driving, more time dealing, mo money!
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Most restaurants don't have a parking lot big enough for a Citation. (re: "wining and dining")
 
Tarheelpilot said:
It’s news because it’s a new car in the fleet...I believe that article pointed the finger at cop fail. Not car fail.

:-/

Take it how you want I guess. I took it as stupid cops forgot to charge the car and used it anyway and only being news worthy because it’s probably the first time the news caught wind of it. I’m sure there was an article in a paper somewhere a few decades ago about some genius forgetting to put gas in the new horseless buggy the department bought but it’s happened so many times now that it ain’t news anymore. As more EV’s find use in public service these type of human failures won’t be news anymore either...
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Exactly, if the article was about human failure; the headline would be "Police failed to recharge Vehicle; and ran low in high speed chase". Not the breathless "Fremont Police Tesla runs low on juice during high speed chase"

Headlines matter.

Tim
 
SoonerAviator said:
I get the comparison, but it's not really accurate. I can't be a "passenger" in the Tesla, because I can't disengage from the road/car and read a book or flip through PoA for 4 hours on my phone. Since I would still have to be watching the road and have my hands somewhat near the steering wheel (since it will prompt you periodically anyway), I don't see the advantage. I understand that it's a stepping stone to full-autonomous driving, but I can't imagine just feeling more refreshed after playing systems monitor for 4.5 hours trying to predict when it's going to f-up and try to kill me (that's what aircraft AP's are for)!
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And it’s even more important to monitor than an aircraft because you aren’t flying a aircraft on autopilot while a few feet from another aircraft. Anyone who has flown an AP in an aircraft has seen multiple failures. The flight computer for the AP in our helicopter has failed twice in 2 years. Give it some time and Tesla is going to see the motor / actuators driving the steering wheel, accelerator, brake pedal, etc start to fail. It might very well become a true self driving vehicle but I wouldn’t trust my life to sensors, motors and software that can fail at anytime.



 
JOhnH said:
Only if by "EVERY" you actually mean "Every single one". But I think you are exaggerating, so even in your scenario, you can cull some of them (if they are diving clunkers, or select them if they are driving with more style).
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Ya, you're correct. Not all are leasing Audis. Some are leasing Jaguars. ;)
 
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