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Velocity173
Interesting lighting on my S charge port started today. 
Tesla Model 3 - Finally.
- Thread starter flyingcheesehead
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Velocity173
Well I do like a car trip every now and then. Especially one as scenic as that. Just don’t want to stop that many times on the way. I’m good for 4-5 hrs, stop for fuel & lunch, 4-5 hrs, dinner & hotel.
But you ever go 650 miles without stopping? I seriously doubt it. I did a few push hard trips like that when I was younger but even then I stopped more than once!
That's the thing about the charging time...yeah sure it's longer than actual pumping the liquid into a gas tank.... but not so much longer than you stop anyway for bathroom breaks, eating, and just stretching your legs a bit....So you do all that stuff while the fuel is lowing....not after.
And those 8 stops are "with a conservative 20% minimum" state of charge, Salty said.
I plugged in a route from Tarpon Springs (estimating his start point) to Beaumont TX in my E-Tron which has a relatively short range compared to a lot of the Teslas...set for 10% minimum and I get 6 stops...basically stopping every couple hours...which I would do anyway
Larry in TN
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There are a few problems with that nearly 1,300 mile trip as planned on ABRP in that image.
1. They are stopping to charge with 20%, or more, SoC. Maybe it's their first road trip and they still have range anxiety. That much of a reserve is unnecessary and it increases your total charge time. 10% is more reasonable and those with EV road trip experience often use closer to 5%.
2. Plan charging stops around meal and bathroom breaks. Have the car charging while making the stops that you would have made in any vehicle so that the charging time isn't adding extra time to your trip.
3. You don't drive 1,300 miles non-stop in any vehicle. You stop in motels for the night. Pick a motel with a destination charger so that your car will charge overnight while you sleep. That replaces more than one charging stop per night as you can top-off the battery for the next morning.
4. A long road trip in an EV will take longer than in an ICE car. If you look only at the road trip, though, you aren't getting the complete picture. Most people don't take long road trips very often. What they do often is their daily driving around town. During their daily driving, they NEVER stop for gas. They are saving time week in and week out by charging at home then they give some of that time back when they take a road trip. In the end, most people come out ahead on time saved with the EV.
tspear
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Timothy
@Larry in TN
Nooooooo. Logic cannot be used. It is completely emotional that i want to ignore daily life and only consider the once every five years road trip.
Tim
Nooooooo. Logic cannot be used. It is completely emotional that i want to ignore daily life and only consider the once every five years road trip.
Tim
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SoonerAviator
One instance (well 615 miles anyway). Appleton, WI to South of Overland Park, KS. Roughly 8 hrs in the seat, no stops. It was just me. Could have pushed on through to Tulsa that night but felt it was better to call it a night and start again in the morning. I had picked up the Excursion that day after flying into WI and didn't want to deal with a flat tire or engine issue in the dark.
I've also driven straight through from Salt Lake City, UT to Tulsa (1,200 miles) stopping for nothing but fuel/drive thru meals. I had my father with me in that trip so we could tag team the driving. Took around 18 hours even with stops. It was another instance of flying in and picking up a car we had purchased.
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SoonerAviator
So, in your long reply, you essentially said ICE vehicles don't do daily driving as well, but excel at longer trips and the difference is pretty stark when the distances are greater.
However EVs do local daily driving well but are a big compromise when you have significant distances to travel.
You pick your poison: one vehicle does local great but not long distance, the other is the inverse.
I don't see fault with either choice. I've have a number of instances where we have driven straight through to NM or CO from OK on snow skiing trips without stopping for anything but fuel/potty breaks. It was more important to get to the destination as quickly as possible without extra expense of a hotel.
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Velocity173
Once you start to get range like this, then EVs can approach ICE trip convenience.
https://insideevs.com/news/558908/752-mile-range-experimental-battery/
https://insideevs.com/news/558908/752-mile-range-experimental-battery/
Larry in TN
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I own three cars. A Tesla Model 3 and two Mazda3's (that the kids drive).
For all my local, daily driving, I drive the Tesla. On the only road trip I've taken since buying the Tesla over a year ago, I drove the Tesla. For all road trips I take in the future, I will drive the Tesla.
Since September 2021, when my Tesla arrived, I have driven the Mazdas exactly once (other then to reposition them a time or two in/out of the garage).
If you don't want an EV then don't buy one. I am not trying to talk anybody into driving something they don't want. (The Mazda3 is a great little ICE car, if you want a small-to-mid Sedan, and an excellent value. I'd happily recommend them)
Larry in TN
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A 750-mile battery is a waste of resources for most drivers. Use those same battery resources to build three EVs with 250 mile ranges which will meet the needs of almost everyone. Only a small percentage of drivers will need, or even use, that range.
For a household with more than one EV, buy one with a 330+ range and the rest with something in the mid-200s. Use the longer-range one for trips.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
Everyone’s use case is different.
In 9 months of ownership, we’ve put 21,000 miles on our Tesla Model 3 LR. From our home near Knoxville, we’ve made 3 trips to FL, 2 to the DC area, 1 to Indiana and a recent northern loop that took us as far as Ottawa. So, for us a lot more than “once every five years”.
The time spent charging on these trips has never been burdensome. Charge time is typically 15 to 25 minutes every 3 or 4 hours of driving. I only recall one destination charger at a motel in Harpers Ferry. Hopefully those will become more plentiful as motels start to see chargers as a drawing card. Visiting friends we charge overnight, picking up 50 miles or so each night. We’re still conservative (paranoid?) and aim to charge so as to have about 15% charge remaining at our next stop.
Works admirably well for us, but may not work for everyone.
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Velocity173
Like the article states, it reduces range anxiety on trips and since it fits in the same space as the 100 KWH pack, it’s a win win. The two vids above show what a hassle a cross country road trip is in an EV. This new battery would cut charging stops in half. It’s not just that, while 80 % of people commute 40 or less miles a day, there are still plenty of people that have a long work commute. Say they have an emergency or last minute errand to run. Range could be tight. Unless there’s some sort of cobalt-nickel shortage I don’t know about, I don’t see any drawbacks to a larger battery.
Larry in TN
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They show what a hassle it is when the CCS charger network doesn't work as it should. There are hundreds more videos that show how well EV road trips go.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
Really, really, no hassle at all for most Tesla owners in most parts of the country. It’s really a quite efficient and elegant way to take long road trips, and will only get better as the infrastructure grows. Again, speaking only for Tesla owners using Superchargers and Destination chargers - other EV owners apparently do still face a flakier infrastructure. For now anyway.
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SoonerAviator
Precisely my point. I think having a 2-car household with an EV and an ICE is a great mix. Or 2 EVs and an ICE until such point in EV technology that EVs can replace ICE range and refuel times. I just tire of the constant justifications that EV proponents try to push about how "it's not that bad" to deal with EVs on longer trips. The tech will get there eventually, but it's still inconvenient at this point in time unless you just enjoy making trips take longer.
Larry in TN
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Only if you're topping it off, which you don't do on a road trip. Unless this new battery tech has a slower overall charging curve, the time to add a particularly number of miles doesn't change. If anything, it should charge faster.
The advantage of a larger battery on road trips is that you can keep the battery in the state-of-charge (SoC) range where it charges the fastest. Smaller batteries mean that you'll have to charge to a higher SoC at each stop which means a slower average charge-rate and more time spent charging.
A 750-mile battery would be great for road trips but, for most of us, most of our driving is not road trips. You have to carry around the weight of the larger battery all the time, even when you don't need it. The materials used to make the very large battery could be better used making multiple shorter-range EVs instead of one very long-range one.
There's a place for some EVs with 750-mile range, but that's a relatively small portion of the market. A 250-mile range is plenty for what most of us do on our daily driving. 330-miles, or so, is enough for occasional road trips with minimal time spent charging.
I bought the Model 3 Long Range, 358-mile EPA range, because I, like many first-time EV buyers, didn't understand most of this. I charge daily to 80% in my garage. The only reason my SoC drops below 60% is because I leave it at the airport with Sentry Mode on for up to a week at a time. (With Sentry Mode off, it loses less than 1% point per day sitting unplugged) In 14 months, I've taken one road trip, during which the extra range, over the SR+, saved me one charging stop.
Zeldman
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No argument there. Lots of population means more amenities of all kinds. Here in NM same thing, as long as a person stays on the interstates there are lots of charger opportunities. But going off the main roads which is 95% of how I travel, chargers are few and far between, then there is the chance the charger might not be working when needed.
Again, no argument there. I see some of the small towns in NM has plans for a charging station. But as of now, an EV won't meet my needs. Then again, neither will a new Ferrari...But someday, maybe someday before I croak I will be out the money for an Ev...
Larry in TN
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That's not what I said. I have two ICE cars because I had them before I bought the Tesla. They will go with the kids as they move out on their own. I had three when I bought the Tesla but sold the diesel Jetta that it replaced. I don't drive my Mazdas and I won't buy anymore ICE vehicles.
What I said is a family with EVs might have one long-range EV (330mi+) and the rest mid-range (~250mi) EVs. There is absolutely no way that I'd take one of the Mazdas on a road trip and leave the Tesla at home. The road trip experience is better in the Tesla. Listen to @FastEddieB . He's done a lot more road-tripping in his Tesla than have I.
What I have been trying to explain, for months now, is that EVs are different. You don't think about them in the same terms as an ICE car. Doing so is what confuses people. You don't need the same range or "refueling" time as an ICE car. (Though, my EV range is similar to the gasoline range of my Mazdas) The car is "full" everyday when you leave your garage. When you are on a road trip, you don't "fill up" when you are waiting for the car to charge. You charge enough to make it to your next stop, plus reserve--just like flight planning. The car's navigation system figures it all out for you.
Unless you are regularly driving 200+ miles per day, that's 52,000mi/yr Mo-Fr, you aren't going to have to stop to charge your car away from home. Because of this, owning an EV is more convenient than owning an ICE car for most of us.
And I tire of people who don't understand how EVs work saying that they're inconvenient when my 14 months of experience exclusively driving EVs says different. If it were inconvenient, don't you think I would have noticed by now?
An EV with 150 mile range, or less, would not be convenient for most people, except as a around-town car. I wouldn't recommend owning one. Living with an EV without the ability to (Level 2) charge at home would not be convenient, I wouldn't recommend it. ~250-mile range for daily driving is more convenient than ICE for those who can charge at home. A ~330-mile+ range is great for road trips, as has been detailed by several in this thread.
If you don't want an EV, then don't buy an EV. I'm against any government mandates for EV adoption (California). The market is doing a fine job of absorbing all of the EVs that the manufacture's are able to build.
I have tried to explain what it is like owning and driving an EV for people who are interested in learning about them. Why are people who don't own an EV, and who've likely never driven an EV, compelled to tell EV owners how bad they think EVs are? Don't EV owners know what it's like to own, and drive, EVs?
Then a larger battery serves no purpose.
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Velocity173
No way you’re gonna convince me 2.5 hrs of charging on a 1,300 mile trip is convenient. Not today, not ever. I’ll take 15 minutes of gas station fill ups any day. The ride of a Tesla is also no different from a comparable ICE vehicle.
Larry in TN
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The larger battery allows you to drive longer legs while keeping the car's SoC in the range where it charges the fastest.
If the charging curve is similar, the number of miles of range you add, while in the SoC range where the battery charges the fastest, is greater. In both cases, you'll minimize your time spent charging by keeping the SoC in the 5% to 60% range. In the car with the larger battery, you can drive more miles from 60% to 5% SoC so you will not have to stop as often.
Larry in TN
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Subtract the time you spend refueling, using the restroom, and getting food/eating, as my car will spend that time charging, and the difference is a lot less than 2.5 hours. Subtract the time you save by charging overnight at your motel from the difference. That will replace more than one of the charging stops from that 2.5 hour total as you can "top it off" overnight requiring less charging time the next day.
At 15 minutes per stop, you're spending an hour, or 1:15, stopped. More, as I'm going to need to make restroom and food stops. I'm not driving five hours without a stop. But please tell @FastEddieB that his experiences on his road trips are wrong.
On my road trip, autopilot was on for almost all of the trip which does make a long day of driving more pleasant. The seats in my car are more comfortable than my other cars. The infotainment system is a lot better and doesn't rely on using my phone's data plan. The cost of energy is significantly lower.
It's not even close.
The difference in SoC range is not that big. You're saving very little time unless you charge up well above 60% - and to do that you're sitting there longer.
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1+15? Takes 15 minutes total time to fill up for 4 stops vs 2.5 hrs and 7 stops. And no, I’ve driven Model 3s and my Model S and any luxury car drives the same. Heck I drove a new Subaru Outback yesterday with “Eye Sight” that drives as good as an AP Model 3. Driving experience is hit or miss on Teslas. Ryan’s experience is what’s typical. But, they all drink the cool aid and keep coming back for more.
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
Lady doth protest too much Batman and Joseph on an ev-donkey. I dont even have a dog in the ev fight, but my fuel stops in my 512mi range ice sonata are 4 minutes. F.o.u.r, not 15. Im sorry some of you people dilly dally at the pump like you preflight lawnmowers, that doesnt invalidate my data point, n=1 and all that jazz.
At my level of monthly commute that equates to 12 minutes per month, or two and a half hours a year. Thats a charging rate of 130mi per MINUTE. I paid 20 grand new, in 2019, which is also not up for debate. I dont care what ev owners do, thats my lived experience and it informs my vehicle choices.
For people pearl clutching about having their experience as EV owners scrutinized by people "who dont know what theyre talking about", some of you have spent inordinate amounts of time dismissing our lived experience as ice owners.
At my level of monthly commute that equates to 12 minutes per month, or two and a half hours a year. Thats a charging rate of 130mi per MINUTE. I paid 20 grand new, in 2019, which is also not up for debate. I dont care what ev owners do, thats my lived experience and it informs my vehicle choices.
For people pearl clutching about having their experience as EV owners scrutinized by people "who dont know what theyre talking about", some of you have spent inordinate amounts of time dismissing our lived experience as ice owners.
I generally agree with you, and I totally agree if you discount leaving the road to get to the station and extra time at lights etc. if you count those, there’s no way you’re fueling in 4 minutes.
but those items only magnify the issue for ev
the reason I bring this up is because commuting in my ev is wonderful because I never have to get off the interstate to fuel up. Saves me tons of very unpleasant minutes every week.
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Velocity173
Don’t even watch the whole vid. Just watch the last 3 minutes and that’s what sums up service with a Tesla. I’ve seen it first hand. Guy buying a $130K Plaid and the sales team can’t even get the right one out there. Guy spent 30 minutes (with my help) looking it over for defects (because they’re known for that). Sales manager walks out and apologizes and says that’s not his car. They bring another one around and we start from square one looking it over for defects. Bunch of unorganized college kids working at Tesla with no attention to detail.
The hype works for awhile, but eventually that is going to burn off. They really should get that under control before hand, or maybe the idea is to constantly keep up hype and not worry about delivery. So far it’s worked.
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Tesla’s not a bad company but they do have glaring faults that some ignore and then some (me) point it out but still support the product. Just like the vid above, both of those guys admit the company’s poor service but they’re both die hard fans. They also know there are still people in line waiting to buy a Tesla and talk themselves into accepting those faults just to own a Tesla.
Reminds me of the Delorean FB page I’m on. There are those that drink the cool aid and never admit the faults of the car, there are those that say it’s a POS and sell it immediately, then those (me) that know the faults and accept that. Nothing crazy about the later, just realistic. No car and no aircraft for that matter is without faults. Accept that and live with it.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
My driving experience may be different from others here. I can make 700 miles a day with 2 stops. 1 stop if traveling alone. Each stop may take 10 minutes if I take time to eat after fueling up. My wife will be yelling at me to stop somewhere so she can pee. And she doesn't mind stopping on the side of the road, just as long as I stop.!! (which I rarely do) Stopping 3 or 4 times in a 700 mile leg is just too much for me.
I see cars at the charging station at the BW (best western) on the old rt 66 down the road where I live. Usually the occupants are sitting under a tree, washing the car, repacking the luggage, reading a book, playing on the cell phone, working on a laptop or many other things. Filling up and getting back on the road is not one of the items I see the Evs doing.
Minimizing fuel stops is something that was ingrained in me in a former career. A hard habit to break.
I see cars at the charging station at the BW (best western) on the old rt 66 down the road where I live. Usually the occupants are sitting under a tree, washing the car, repacking the luggage, reading a book, playing on the cell phone, working on a laptop or many other things. Filling up and getting back on the road is not one of the items I see the Evs doing.
Minimizing fuel stops is something that was ingrained in me in a former career. A hard habit to break.
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Yep, that’s how I drive. Get to the destination with minimal delays. That’s how I fly as well. I’ve done TX to GA several times 4.5-5 hrs non stop.
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SoonerAviator
I understand fully about leaving the house with a "full tank" every day with EVs. They make great daily drivers. You can't say they make great road trip cars because you just plan your trip (or let the car plan the trip) to go from charging station to charging station. They suck compared to ICE vehicles if you are trying to make a day trip. If I need to run to Dallas from Tulsa (250 miles) and back in an afternoon, I can do it without issue. 7 hours of driving in an ICE with one stop on a typical ICE, zero stops in my diesel simply because it has a huge fuel tank. The EV will likely require 2 stops, and of lengths over 30 minutes in most cases. Adding an extra hour to trip I'm trying to complete as quickly as possible is highly undesirable.
Having one EV and one ICE gives you the flexibility to choose the best vehicle for the mission. On top of that, I often decide to pick up a trailer/tractor or car hauler on a whim for a project. If I leave the house with low fuel that morning, it's no big deal as I can fuel up in a few minutes. If it happens in an EV, I may just say forget it and do the project another day rather than waiting to charge up.
EVs don't fit the way many people drive, especially those who use vehicles for more than just transportation around town. Having to adapt how I go about my day around my EV isn't appealing at the moment. I'm sure as hell not scheduling a road trip around what stops are necessary along the way. If I want to take the backroads, it becomes a really inefficient endeavor for an EV.
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Bob Noel
People choose to wait. There are probably plenty of unoccupied pumps across the street or a block or two away.
When all the working charging stations are being used, then you have to wait. And that wait will probably be longer than waiting for a pump at the cheap gas station.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Which is why I currently think a hybrid would be my best option.
But of course as technology moves forward, that could change.
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SoonerAviator
Sure. I don't doubt that the EVs will be able to meet 90% of the populations needs in the next decade or two. For the rest, it will probably be ICE solutions because they are constantly driving large weekly distances or towing heavy which EVs are terrible at when it comes to range. I would love to have an EV sports sedan at some point, but I'm not paying $80K+ to have one at the moment. The EVs don't make sense financially over ICE, but it will eventually get close enough to parity to justify the switch.
I want one…but for me its all about right to repair. I think warranties are about as fake as safety. Everything breaks and should be repairable I think someone figured out how to fix so why cant I?
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While I don’t care for their service dept, Tesla has an excellent warranty on the expensive items (batt & drive unit). Almost every Model S I see for sale on FB has had the DU replaced at least once and maybe 1/3 have had the HV batt replaced. All under warranty. Which is why so many are starting to offload their vehicles as it approaches the end of warranty. No one wants a $18K batt bill or a $8-10K DU bill.
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SoonerAviator
I'm all for right-to-repair as well, but once most all of the vehicles have moved to CAN-BUS systems and sensors for EVERYTHING, repairing the most basic of stuff can be a headache. The automotive industry has bought into the 90's BMW model for over-use of glitchy electronics, lol. Especially when many of these items are funneled through the infotainment system and subject to expensive failures down the line which won't likely have a huge aftermarket part supply.