Tesla Model 3 - Finally.

SoonerAviator said:
So, what you're saying, is that 13 years @ 12K miles per year (average annual mileage) is right around 160K miles. Which is right where I said an engine should get, at a minimum. However, in the articles listing that the average age is about 13 years, it doesn't specify if that is largely driven by engine/drivetrain failures or simply people choosing not to own a car with high mileage or outdated tech. Cars are often quite functional when people decide to upgrade rather than sink money on repairs or maintenance (suspension/brakes/HVAC/etc.).
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Um no. Your post said 120K; not 160K.
And yes, economic viability is probably why more cars are junked than other reason. I know I have sent a few cars to the graveyard because the cost to fix was not economical.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. You are seeing it with the Nissan Leaf now on the oldest cars. The cost of battery replacement due to shortages is around six to seven thousand currently. So if looking at a decade or older Leaf, it is not worth it for most people. One aspect I am finding interesting is how the battery tech seems to have improved. I looked at older Leaf's for my youngest kid. Assuming the battery degradation is a straight line (questionable assumption), the newer the car the less degradation per year I found.

Tim
 
An interesting calculus will need to be developed for the cost/benefit of replacing batteries on an older EV. The real question comes down to how much more useful life will you get from the EV and at what maintenance cost vs. the cost/benefit of an ICE replacement on a high-mileage vehicle. Will the EV motors and electrical/battery maintenance systems last another 6-8 years after the battery replacement, vs. and ICE vehicle that may need a new transmission, water pump, alternator, etc., after the motor is replaced? (one-and-done vs. death by numerous repairs?)
 
Jeff Oslick said:
An interesting calculus will need to be developed for the cost/benefit of replacing batteries on an older EV. The real question comes down to how much more useful life will you get from the EV and at what maintenance cost vs. the cost/benefit of an ICE replacement on a high-mileage vehicle. Will the EV motors and electrical/battery maintenance systems last another 6-8 years after the battery replacement, vs. and ICE vehicle that may need a new transmission, water pump, alternator, etc., after the motor is replaced? (one-and-done vs. death by numerous repairs?)
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A lot depends on the model of EV. For instance, the Model S has always had a high drive unit failure. Mine was replaced in 2019 under warranty. Out of warranty, I’d be looking at $10K out of pocket. There’s one guy the Model S FB page that has replaced 4 DUs on his car. Said he uses “Ludicrous” a lot though. That’s gotta be hard on DUs. The newer DUs after 2016 are more reliable but I’ve also heard reports of those failing as well.

https://www.teslarati.com/early-model-s-drive-units-fail-60k-mi-data-suggests/
 
Jeff Oslick said:
An interesting calculus will need to be developed for the cost/benefit of replacing batteries on an older EV. The real question comes down to how much more useful life will you get from the EV and at what maintenance cost vs. the cost/benefit of an ICE replacement on a high-mileage vehicle. Will the EV motors and electrical/battery maintenance systems last another 6-8 years after the battery replacement, vs. and ICE vehicle that may need a new transmission, water pump, alternator, etc., after the motor is replaced? (one-and-done vs. death by numerous repairs?)
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I only looked at older Leafs. The oldest ones generally are not worth it; due to the charger. Nissan was only selling upgraded batteries; not the original 24kwh battery. Which is great since it increases the range, however the oldest cars (I think before 2013 model year) the charger is so weak it will take a couple days to charge the car. There was another upgrade to the system, I think it was the 2018 model year, which now gives a practical charge rate for much larger packs to be able to charge at home.
Otherwise, in the research I did, there did not seem to be any significant parts needing replacement after a battery swap. Before the prices spiked in 2021, there was a company out of Washington State (Seattle I believe) which was selling refurbished battery packs for only a couple grand. When I called for information, they gave me a reference to check. It was actually a Leaf customer who is a regional sales manager for some chain. He has just installed his third battery for his Leaf, getting about 150K miles per battery. His largest complaint, was actually the drivers seat, he had to replace it twice before giving up on Nissan and going after market.

Note: This is anecdotal, with no statistical info!

Tim
 
tspear said:
Um no. Your post said 120K; not 160K.
And yes, economic viability is probably why more cars are junked than other reason. I know I have sent a few cars to the graveyard because the cost to fix was not economical.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out. You are seeing it with the Nissan Leaf now on the oldest cars. The cost of battery replacement due to shortages is around six to seven thousand currently. So if looking at a decade or older Leaf, it is not worth it for most people. One aspect I am finding interesting is how the battery tech seems to have improved. I looked at older Leaf's for my youngest kid. Assuming the battery degradation is a straight line (questionable assumption), the newer the car the less degradation per year I found.

Tim
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No, what I said was "most people aren't replacing engines in 100-120K". So if the average age of a vehicle is 13 years (and assumes average mileage per year), the engine would have almost 160K on it and so that is the bar with which batteries would need to be measured against. That says nothing about whether or not the engine had been replaced in that time span, but I would have to assume that the majority of them hadn't had an engine replacement at any point.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
An interesting calculus will need to be developed for the cost/benefit of replacing batteries on an older EV. The real question comes down to how much more useful life will you get from the EV and at what maintenance cost vs. the cost/benefit of an ICE replacement on a high-mileage vehicle. Will the EV motors and electrical/battery maintenance systems last another 6-8 years after the battery replacement, vs. and ICE vehicle that may need a new transmission, water pump, alternator, etc., after the motor is replaced? (one-and-done vs. death by numerous repairs?)
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https://www.greencars.com/expert-insights/are-electric-cars-more-reliable
 
Jeff Oslick said:
An interesting calculus will need to be developed for the cost/benefit of replacing batteries on an older EV. The real question comes down to how much more useful life will you get from the EV and at what maintenance cost vs. the cost/benefit of an ICE replacement on a high-mileage vehicle. Will the EV motors and electrical/battery maintenance systems last another 6-8 years after the battery replacement, vs. and ICE vehicle that may need a new transmission, water pump, alternator, etc., after the motor is replaced? (one-and-done vs. death by numerous repairs?)
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That's what I think sucks about new vehicles in general and especially EVs. Will the lower class be able to buy something 15 years old and trade some sweat equity and get decent transportation for low $ investment or will that be completely uneconomic? They might was well be iPhones with serialized batteries, serialized screens, and soldered on everything and super doubled sided taped together so you have to break the screens to disassemble them.

This is a huge thing for me on the farm machinery front, complete engine overhaul for the 33 year old combine was $3500, dad has owned this machine for damn near 25 years with no/few major problems. If he waned, he could have overhauled it himself for probably half that but opted for an independent local guy to do it. My daily driver is 3 months short of 19 years old original engine and transmission. My airplane is 54 years old on the original engine (I can buy any part I need for it from multiple sources). My pickup is 43 years old, original engine and transmission.

Big California diesel tech on youtube was working old machinery that was auctioned off to customers in Guyana, said they don't want any equipment that has much for electronics just too much trouble keeping them running, lot easier to fix the old mechanical machines than trying to keep electronic ones going.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Read complaints on customer service all the time on Tesla club and FB.
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I have read complaints about customer service for every business that I've been to and several that I haven't. People gonna complain bout e'rything.
 
My BMW i3 is working out nicely. I paid $7 to commute to and from work last month. It would have been $100 in the truck or $27 in the Prius. YMMV
 
Rich Holt said:
I have read complaints about customer service for every business that I've been to and several that I haven't. People gonna complain bout e'rything.
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and at least some of the complaint will be valid.
 
Bob Noel said:
and at least some of the complaint will be valid.
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I had a "customer" complaint about my customer service recently.

Me: Hello this is Rich, how may I help you?
Angry Customer (AC): 3:47 of her yelling and cussing at me (I still have never met this person)
Me: I'm sorry that happened to you, what bus stop are we talking about?
AC: Who's yo supervisor?
Me: Gives AC the name and phone number of my supervisor
AC: You're very rude. (hangs up)

The AC then did the same thing to my supervisor

Yeah, customer complaints have a different meaning to me now.
 
Rich Holt said:
I have read complaints about customer service for every business that I've been to and several that I haven't. People gonna complain bout e'rything.
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Well yeah, no car company is immune from customer complaints for service but this has been a major issue for Tesla.

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.teslamotors.com

https://cleantechnica.com/2021/10/20/how-tesla-can-improve-its-customer-service/

https://electricvehiclelove.com/202...ety-concerns-to-appeal-more-broadly-to-women/
 
Rich Holt said:
My BMW i3 is working out nicely. I paid $7 to commute to and from work last month. It would have been $100 in the truck or $27 in the Prius. YMMV
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Truck: $30K
Gas: $100
Not being seen driving a BMW i3 or Prius: Priceless

"There are some things money can't buy, for everything else, there's Mastercard." :)
 
There is nothing unusual in new technology starting out in high-end cars then filtering down to mass-market vehicles later. Air bags, cruise control, ABS, rear-view cameras, traction control, etc., all followed that pattern and can now be found on economy and entry-level cars. The same pattern has been, and will continued to be, followed by EVs.

When the engine or transmission fails on an old Toyota or Ford, you don't take it to the dealership because the dealer would be too expensive. You take it to an independent shop that can do the job more economically. A shop that can use both OEM and aftermarket parts. A shop that can use refurbished or used parts. Today, there aren't very many out-of-warranty EVs so only a small handful of independent shops have the tools and knowledge to do EV-specific work. As demand for such service increases, that will change.

Tesla's service is provided in ways that are very different from the way dealerships provide service. In some ways its a big improvement, I've had a "dealer installed option" installed, and a minor warranty repair (replaced a taillight) performed, in my own driveway. In other ways, it's a work in progress. Improving the shortfalls is a high priority of Musk.

If you aren't happy with the current state of Tesla's service then don't buy a Tesla. Ford has the Mach E and F150 Lightning, VW has the ID.4 and ID.Buzz, Kia the EV6, Hyundai the Ionic 5, and Chevy a number of EV models, all with conventional dealership networks and service. Some of those options also cost less than Teslas.

If you don't want an EV at all then don't buy one. The option to buy an ICE car will be around for many more years.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Truck: $30K
Gas: $100
Not being seen driving a BMW i3 or Prius: Priceless

"There are some things money can't buy, for everything else, there's Mastercard." :)
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Imagine being an adult and still worrying about what the other kids thought about what I drive. That'd be weird.
 
Rich Holt said:
Imagine being an adult and still worrying about what the other kids thought about what I drive. That'd be weird.
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Imagine not recognizing a tongue-in-cheek joke, even with a smiley face at the end. That'd be really weird.

Besides, you should strive to inspire others!
 
SoonerAviator said:
Imagine not recognizing a tongue-in-cheek joke, even with a smiley face at the end. That'd be really weird.

Besides, you should strive to inspire others!
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[smiles, nods then rolls eyes]
 
We have found the SuperCharger network fast and reliable on our road trips. Never had to wait for a stall, nor found one inoperative. I’ve often wondered how a similar road trip might go in a non-Tesla.

Ryan Shaw has an informative YouTube channel largely Tesla-centric. He recently purchased a Rivian R1T, and posted his experiences charging on his first road trip. Fast forward to about 5:40 for the gruesome details:

 
FastEddieB said:
Ryan Shaw has an informative YouTube channel largely Tesla-centric. He recently purchased a Rivian R1T, and posted his experiences charging on his first road trip.
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I watched that earlier this morning.

The CCS networks really need to get their act together. I thought they were catching up to Tesla's network but the problems remain persistent. It seems to mostly be hardware issues with the chargers. Tesla's network, in comparison, is simple, seamless, and reliable.
 
oof - when was the last time I pulled into a gas station only to find every single pump taken? I don't think I've ever had that problem.
 
Bob Noel said:
oof - when was the last time I pulled into a gas station only to find every single pump taken? I don't think I've ever had that problem.
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Around here in the SE, when one station is a bit cheaper than the rest, it’s not unusual to have to wait in line for a pump to free up.

On the Tesla screen it shows how many stalls are open at nearby Superchargers. If they’re All full, it shows a timer icon. I’ve seen that 3 times - once in Sarasota and twice on our Canada trip. But all 3 times a stall was available by the time we got there. Not to say it’s not an issue in some regions - it apparently is. But Tesla continues with new locations, and hopefully can keep ahead of the demand curve.
 
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Bob Noel said:
oof - when was the last time I pulled into a gas station only to find every single pump taken? I don't think I've ever had that problem.
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I've run into that a number of times over 40+ years of driving, but not very often.

A big problem is that the CCS charging stations tend to have relatively few chargers and some of them are often not working. Tesla Supercharger stations typically have a lot more chargers and almost all of them are working.

I don't know why the CCS networks are having so much trouble.

As pointed out in the video, one of the largest CCS networks, Electrify America, was built by VW has part of its diesel-gate reparations. Perhaps opening more stations quickly was more important than the usefulness and reliability of the network? I don't know.

I've seen many other videos, though, of successful CCS road trips with minimal trouble with the charging stations. Ryan pointed this out in the video. His experience on that one trip is not typical.
 
Wow... my area of operations in SE NM doesn't seem have any chargers that I have found. Maybe because oil is king in that area.??

Hope those solar EV car chargers get up and going soon...
 
I wonder how much use plays into the alternative networks to Tesla. My brothers have used evGo a fair amount on the east coast, and my parents are using it now (literally now, my parents are charging while stopping for a late lunch on their way to visit my younger brother's family). None of us have ever had a problem in terms of stuff working (sister in law has complained about speed, but she did not look and used a 13kw charger).

Tim
 
Zeldman said:
Wow... my area of operations in SE NM doesn't seem have any chargers that I have found. Maybe because oil is king in that area.??

Hope those solar EV car chargers get up and going soon...
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Slim pickins indeed:

52479717290_6a16a8104f.jpg


It would only take a few new strategically placed Superchargers to fill the gap, thinking Roswell or Carlsbad.

Charging at home would work for most, with enough range to get to a Supercharger for longer trips. Still, not ideal. Yet.
 
Hmm, I seem to remember a POA member saying the Cybertruck won’t make the 2021 deadline or the price point. ;) I like Ryan’s vids. He doesn’t BS about EV problems. Like me, I’ll still go with EVs in the future but they have some serious teething pains right now. All the non Tesla chargers are hit or miss right now. An hour to charge a Rivian and he has no problem with that?

Even Tesla chargers, while reliable, I still wouldn’t look forward to a road trip. They still take way too long to charge. 13 charges to go 1,300 miles? I wouldn’t want to stop 7 times (M3 LR) to go 1,300 miles. But they always talk themselves into that it’s not so bad and they like stopping that much. Crazy.

 
I honestly had no idea you couldn't charge non-tesla cars at Tesla chargers
 
Velocity173 said:
Hmm, I seem to remember a POA member saying the Cybertruck won’t make the 2021 deadline or the price point. ;) I like Ryan’s vids. He doesn’t BS about EV problems. Like me, I’ll still go with EVs in the future but they have some serious teething pains right now. All the non Tesla chargers are hit or miss right now. An hour to charge a Rivian and he has no problem with that?

Even Tesla chargers, while reliable, I still wouldn’t look forward to a road trip. They still take way too long to charge. 13 charges to go 1,300 miles? I wouldn’t want to stop 7 times (M3 LR) to go 1,300 miles. But they always talk themselves into that it’s not so bad and they like stopping that much. Crazy.

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They're doing it wrong stopping every 100 miles.

8 stops with a very conservative 20% minimum battery on arrival. 2.5 hours of charging total

Screen Shot 2022-11-05 at 4.00.57 PM.png
 
Salty said:
I honestly had no idea you couldn't charge non-tesla cars at Tesla chargers
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I don't think that is quite correct - albeit an adapter would be required

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/7/23198696/tesla-supercharger-non-tesla-ev-us-white-house

"Tesla uses a proprietary connector in North America, so non-Tesla vehicles here will need an adapter in order to access the company’s Superchargers, of which there are over 6,798 plugs in the US, according to the Department of Energy. (The company says it has 35,000 Supercharger plugs globally.)"
 
I had to go up to 50% minimum battery to get 13 stops. That's just stupidity.
 
Bob Noel said:
I don't think that is quite correct - albeit an adapter would be required

https://www.theverge.com/2022/7/7/23198696/tesla-supercharger-non-tesla-ev-us-white-house

"Tesla uses a proprietary connector in North America, so non-Tesla vehicles here will need an adapter in order to access the company’s Superchargers, of which there are over 6,798 plugs in the US, according to the Department of Energy. (The company says it has 35,000 Supercharger plugs globally.)"
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I'm just going on what the guy said in that video. I assumed you'd need an adapter.
 
Salty said:
They're doing it wrong stopping every 100 miles.

8 stops with a very conservative 20% minimum battery on arrival. 2.5 hours of charging total

View attachment 112069
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I wouldn’t want to stop 8 times on a trip like that though. You could do that in a comparable gas vehicle at half the stops and 1/10 the time of the 2.5 hrs you spent charging. An EV road trip is horribly inefficient if getting to where you want to go is priority. And if it’s at $.43 per KWH like Ryan’s vid you’re looking at gas MPG efficiency. $.43 per KWH or like Shelby’s case $.48 per KWH is outrageous.
 
Velocity173 said:
I wouldn’t want to stop 8 times on a trip like that though. You could do that in a comparable gas vehicle at half the stops and 1/10 the time of the 2.5 hrs you spent charging. An EV road trip is horribly inefficient if getting to where you want to go is priority. And if it’s at $.43 per KWH like Ryan’s vid you’re looking at gas MPG efficiency. $.43 per KWH or like Shelby’s case $.48 per KWH is outrageous.
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Yeah, I tried to talk my wife into doing a road trip in the Tesla and she had a fit when it was an hour of charging for 600 miles (3 stops)
 
Zeldman said:
Wow... my area of operations in SE NM doesn't seem have any chargers that I have found. Maybe because oil is king in that area.??
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These two maps show the chargers in SE NM. Orange pins are DC fast chargers (that you use on trips). Green pins are destination chargers. The pins with wrench symbols are under construction. I included Tesla and CCS for Orange and Tesla and J1772 for Green. It looks like there's about to be quite a few CCS chargers in that area.

Green.jpg Orange.jpg

Velocity173 said:
An hour to charge a Rivian and he has no problem with that?
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It took an hour to charge because the charger wasn't working right. He wasn't ok with that, which was the whole point of the video.

Bob Noel said:
I don't think that is quite correct - albeit an adapter would be required
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Today, Superchargers in North America don't support non-Tesla vehicles, regardless of adapter. A Tesla-to-J1772 adapter can be used for Level 2 (A/C) charging.

The problem with Superchargers are the Supercharger's biggest benefit. To operate a Supercharger you just plug in the charger and, within 5 to 10 seconds, the charging begins. The car and the charger communicate and billing is automatic. In order for non-Tesla cars to charge at Superchargers, another system will have to be implemented to replace this automatic function. Level 2 chargers, regardless of the connector (J1772 or Tesla) don't use an automatic authorization process.

Salty said:
I had to go up to 50% minimum battery to get 13 stops. That's just stupidity.
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Not sure what you mean but, if I'm right, I think I agree. Planning a trip where you never go below 50% state-of-charge (SoC) is inefficient. You want to keep the batter in the SoC range where it charges the fastest, generally 5% to 70%. That will greatly reduce the total time spent charging and overall time of your trip.
 
Velocity173 said:
I wouldn’t want to stop 8 times on a trip like that though. You could do that in a comparable gas vehicle at half the stops and 1/10 the time of the 2.5 hrs you spent charging. An EV road trip is horribly inefficient if getting to where you want to go is priority. And if it’s at $.43 per KWH like Ryan’s vid you’re looking at gas MPG efficiency. $.43 per KWH or like Shelby’s case $.48 per KWH is outrageous.
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I can't imagine wanting add 2.5 hrs to a trip like that. Potty breaks and food aside, my diesel suv will make a 1300-mile trip with one stop if I really wanted to. Unless I was on a road trip where the trip itself was the purpose, not so much the destination, I wouldn't want to stop 8+ times over the course of the journey.
 
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