Teardrop Entry

Salty said:
I'll fly 5 miles off course to my destination and turn in a way that I can enter on a 45 for the downwind before I'd ever fly over, then past the field 2-3 miles and turn into the downwind. It's nonsense. Why the hell would I fly over the airport, then leave the airport area and fly back to the airport again? Not me. That's not safer. Again, nonsense.
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To have a look at the airport. See a windsock or other wind indicator to decide which runway to use. And see the runway from above looking for what condition it is in. Pot holes and other damage. I have been to a few where there is no way I’d just go in on the 45 without having had a closer look first.
 
OP there is such thing as a 'teardrop entry' for entering the pattern. You either enter opposite side, at TPA, mid-field, or your stay at 500ft above TPA (1000ft above if turbine AC are present), fly at LEAST 2 miles away from the downwind leg and enter on a 45, midfield. PHAK 14-3-14-4

There is a 'teardrop entry' procedure for IFR.. that's why proper terminology is important.
 
morleyz said:
He was saying that the turn into the 45 for the downwind was a chance to do a steep turn. Why is that stupid? That's literally the FAA recommended entry when approaching from the opposite side of the pattern.
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Whoa! Where does the FAA description of the midfield crossover-return involve doing steep turns?
 
1) Approach in a way that won't surprise and get close to others
2) Tell people what you're doing
3) Give yourself a way out if/when others do something unexpected

IMHO, do those three and things generally work out.
 
Clip4 said:
Adding to your post…. The FAA strongly advocates a 45° entry. The “teardrop” completed correctly allows the pilot to complete a course reversal and enter 45° to a midfield downwind.


The sentences that accompanies the diagram that no one bothers reading.

“When well clear of the pattern -approximately 2 miles- the pilot should scan the area carefully for traffic, descend to the pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45°to the downwind leg at midfield.”

“Why is it advantageous to use the 45° entry? If it is not possible to enter the pattern due to conflicting traffic, the pilot on the 45° can continue to turn away from the downwind, fly a safe distance away, and return for another attempt to join on the 45° entry - all while scanning for traffic.

I wish the FAA would modify their diagram more to scale because now one reads these days.
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you make a great point. The real problem with “teardrop” I see is that pilots fly it too damn close and descend while turning back to the 45. Heck, even in this thread, we’ve had descriptions of it as involving a turn to downwind, even as a steep turn at and below 1500 AGL.

Going two miles out, then descending normally to pattern altitude, then turning to the 45 will put you about 3 miles out before turning toward the runway. That should be “well clear” even if student pilots are doing 737 patterns. And if not, go further to be “well clear” of the pattern.
 
WDD said:
FWIW - I read this as sarcasm. Steep turns in a pattern, when going slow and low, not a good idea.
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I felt the same way when I read it. But in this thread, who knows? After all, it seems someone else defended the “steep turn” description.
 
WDD said:
1) Approach in a way that won't surprise and get close to others
2) Tell people what you're doing
3) Give yourself a way out if/when others do something unexpected

IMHO, do those three and things generally work out.
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Have you been to many uncontrolled fields?

Some local yahoo in a cub with NO radio because a $200 handheld is a dumb idea, cuts off all pattern traffic because he's low and slow? (Hazelton PA)

Student AND CFI land on the other end of the runway me and my CFI were LINED UP FOR TAKE OFF on because he could make the first turn off.. and we could wait 30 seconds. They were flying to Wyoming Valley airport for a checkride... that got cancelled when we announced over the UNICOM what they did.

So many IFR practice approaches thinking that they have priority and calling a 10 mile straight in means something to a guy on base.

So many more.... SO. MANY. MORE.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Whoa! Where does the FAA description of the midfield crossover-return involve doing steep turns?
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Especially when they clearly state to fly AT LEAST 2 miles away from the downwind.

Again, PHAK 14-3 14-4
 
I almost always approach our field from the direction I'll be landing at it. I fly an upwind to the right of the field which gives me the opportunity to see the other aircraft on the ground and in the pattern. Turn crosswind and then downwind normally.
 
midlifeflyer said:
you make a great point. The real problem with “teardrop” I see is that pilots fly it too damn close and descend while turning back to the 45. Heck, even in this thread, we’ve had descriptions of it as involving a turn to downwind, even as a steep turn at and below 1500 AGL.

Going two miles out, then descending normally to pattern altitude, then turning to the 45 will put you about 3 miles out before turning toward the runway. That should be “well clear” even if student pilots are doing 737 patterns. And if not, go further to be “well clear” of the pattern.
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Which is why 3 minutes in a 150 seems awfully short.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Just announce a 20 mile final and expect everyone to get out of the way because "final".
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If the planes in the pattern are flying normal-size patterns for bug smashers, I think the "unless well clear" exception in 91.113(b) would apply.
 
truly, to a canary a cat is a monster. The turn diameter of a CatA lawnmower at 30* and 90knots is .4NM. At 120kts it's 3/4NM. I mean this with empathy because I was once a low-time neophyte, but some of you folks may just be too jittery for this endeavor. I don't expect people to do what we do in the UPT pattern, and we make this work very well in a much more dangerous and dense environment mind you. But the fundamental assumptions that couch the distance assumptions remain the same. Cat A/B go-karts should be able to do the entire thing within a 3NM bubble of the center of mass of the airport. It's not diamond-4 crossunders we're asking of people here, be we do expect private pilots to be able to point a lift vector in more than 2-D however. This isn't airline train-- oh wait a minute :biggrin:
 
hindsight2020 said:
truly, to a canary a cat is a monster. The turn diameter of a CatA lawnmower at 30* and 90knots is .4NM. At 120kts it's 3/4NM. I mean this with empathy because I was once a low-time neophyte, but some of you folks may just be too jittery for this endeavor. I don't expect people to do what we do in the UPT pattern, and we make this work very well in a much more dangerous and dense environment mind you. But the fundamental assumptions that couch the distance assumptions remain the same. Cat A/B go-karts should be able to do the entire thing within a 3NM bubble of the center of mass of the airport. It's not diamond-4 crossunders we're asking of people here, be we do expect private pilots to be able to point a lift vector in more than 2-D however. This isn't airline train-- oh wait a minute :biggrin:
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Yeah, the new crowd I hang with flying warbirds definitely do steep turns in the pattern, no doubt about it. They give me **** if I do a break with a 30 degree bank. But, in that case it’s important to do what everyone else is doing or you hose up the whole train.
 
Salty said:
Yeah, the new crowd I hang with flying warbirds definitely do steep turns in the pattern, no doubt about it. They give me **** if I do a break with a 30 degree bank. But, in that case it’s important to do what everyone else is doing or you hose up the whole train.
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And the energy of an overhead break is managed much differently than the standard rectangular pattern. Regardless if solo or formation. There also (should be) additional training before doing a break the first time.

Since a the overhead is nonstandard though, it does change the risk equation when mixing with an active standard pattern.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Just announce a 20 mile final and expect everyone to get out of the way because "final".
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I appreciate that info as I thought a 10 mile final was the limit (don't know where I got that from :rolleyes:). I'm guessing now that a call for final really has no limits ... :dunno:
 
I thought the standard was trial by aerial combat a la Watsonville CA.

Ya wanna be right or ya wanna go home to the frau and dependents type of thing.
 
Daleandee said:
I appreciate that info as I thought a 10 mile final was the limit (don't know where I got that from :rolleyes:). I'm guessing now that a call for final really has no limits ... :dunno:
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Because of the "unless well clear" exception in 91.113(b), I think that time to the airport is more important than distance to the airport.
 
My biggest gripe with the "teardrop entry" is the word salad most people use on ctaf when trying to describe what they're doing.

Then not doing it properly... It's usually 500' above TPA then a descending right turn direct to downwind.

At 06c TPA is 1600, but the bravo floor is 1900, so you can't overfly by 500. Coming from the north and landing on 29, I'll use the alternate method of midfield entry to downwind. I don't like flying the across the approach or departure ends of a runway that low.
 
Palmpilot said:
Because of the "unless well clear" exception in 91.113(b), I think that time to the airport is more important than distance to the airport.
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No argument from me. I was being totally sarcastic (hence the green) ...
 
Daleandee said:
I appreciate that info as I thought a 10 mile final was the limit (don't know where I got that from :rolleyes:). I'm guessing now that a call for final really has no limits ... :dunno:
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The limit is the VHF radio horizon and the power of your radio.
 
MauleSkinner said:
If only reading and understanding English were something that you could count on pilots being able to do.
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Here is a proposed FAA set of rules for PIC English proficieny.

  1. Verbs HAS to agree with their subjects.
  2. Never use a preposition to end a sentence with. Winston Churchill, corrected on this error once, responded to the young man who corrected him by saying "Young man, that is the kind of impudence up with which I will not put!
  3. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction.
  4. It is wrong to ever split an infinitive.
  5. Avoid cliches like the plague. (They're old hat.)
  6. Also, always avoid annoying alliteration.
  7. Be more or less specific.
  8. Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary.
  9. Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies endlessly over and over again.
  10. No sentence fragments.
  11. Contractions aren't always necessary and shouldn't be used to excess so don't.
  12. Foreign words and phrases are not always apropos.
  13. Do not be redundant; do not use more words than necessary; it's highly superfluous and can be excessive.
  14. All generalizations are bad.
  15. Comparisons are as bad as cliches.
  16. Don't use no double negatives.
  17. Avoid excessive use of ampersands & abbrevs., etc.
  18. One-word sentences? Eliminate.
  19. Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake (Unless they are as good as gold).
  20. The passive voice is to be ignored.
  21. Eliminate commas, that are, not necessary. Parenthetical words, however, should be enclosed in commas.
  22. Never use a big word when substituting a diminutive one would suffice.
  23. Don't overuse exclamation points!!!
  24. Use words correctly, irregardless of how others use them.
  25. Understatement is always the absolute best way to put forth earth-shaking ideas.
  26. Use the apostrophe in it's proper place and omit it when its not needed and use it correctly with words' that show possession.
  27. Don't use too many quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "I hate quotations.. Tell me what you know."
  28. If you've heard it once, you've heard it a billion times: Resist hyperbole; not one writer in a million can use it correctly. Besides, hyperbole is always overdone, anyway.
  29. Puns are for children, not groan readers.
  30. Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms.
  31. Even IF a mixed metaphor sings, it should be derailed.
  32. Who needs rhetorical questions? However, what if there were no rhetorical questions?
  33. Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement.
  34. Avoid "buzz-words"; such integrated transitional scenarios complicate simplistic matters.
  35. People don't spell "a lot" correctly alot of the time.
  36. Each person should use their possessive pronouns correctly.
  37. All grammar and spelling rules have exceptions (with a few exceptions)....Morgan's Law.
  38. Proofread carefully to see if you any words out.
  39. The dash - a sometimes useful punctuation mark - can often be overused - even though it's a helpful tool some of the time.
  40. Proofread carefully to make sure you don't repeat repeat any words.
  41. In writing, it's important to remember that dangling sentences.
 
My limits maybe club's too:
I don't descend into pattern altitude, I descend to pattern altitude before entering the pattern.
I don't roll more than 30 deg at pattern altitude.

It's slower and requires some room.
 
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kontiki said:
I don't roll more than 30 deg at pattern altitude.
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Better than some CFIs who insist on doing standard rate turns in the pattern.
Still a bit slow for my taste, I think 45 degrees is a good limit.
 
Eh- that slow and low, standard rate is fine. My CFI’s were very strict about turns in the pattern, so I guess that’s burned into me.
 
hindsight2020 said:
truly, to a canary a cat is a monster. The turn diameter of a CatA lawnmower at 30* and 90knots is .4NM. At 120kts it's 3/4NM. I mean this with empathy because I was once a low-time neophyte, but some of you folks may just be too jittery for this endeavor. I don't expect people to do what we do in the UPT pattern, and we make this work very well in a much more dangerous and dense environment mind you. But the fundamental assumptions that couch the distance assumptions remain the same. Cat A/B go-karts should be able to do the entire thing within a 3NM bubble of the center of mass of the airport. It's not diamond-4 crossunders we're asking of people here, be we do expect private pilots to be able to point a lift vector in more than 2-D however. This isn't airline train-- oh wait a minute :biggrin:
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Those numbers are the radius for a standard turn at that speed. The diameter would be double.
 
AV8R_87 said:
Better than some CFIs who insist on doing standard rate turns in the pattern.
Still a bit slow for my taste, I think 45 degrees is a good limit.
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A 45° turns in to 50° rather easily because of the over banking tendency of the aircraft and requires opposite aileron control. There is 20% increase in stall speed at 45° bank Add another 5° of bank and the stall speed increase 1.25%. Your approach speeds are 1.3 above stall. Not good.
 
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It depends if there is a Charlie over your airport. The turbines will all be over on App Con.

Then 500 above in the “C” space makes perfect sense.

However the real problem is “Hobbs Rules!”

B
 
AV8R_87 said:
I'll believe it when yolks and breaks stop being worked on in the hanger, and when a bad flair stops bending the nose gear on landings.
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Since we’re on the tangent of English, it’s “brakes” not “breaks”. You may know that, but this error is so often found, I don’t know what’s happening.
 
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