Teardrop Entry

[luvflyin]

I'll fly 5 miles off course to my destination and turn in a way that I can enter on a 45 for the downwind before I'd ever fly over, then past the field 2-3 miles and turn into the downwind. It's nonsense. Why the hell would I fly over the airport, then leave the airport area and fly back to the airport again? Not me. That's not safer. Again, nonsense.

To have a look at the airport. See a windsock or other wind indicator to decide which runway to use. And see the runway from above looking for what condition it is in. Pot holes and other damage. I have been to a few where there is no way I’d just go in on the 45 without having had a closer look first.

 

[pfarber]

Higher means it will be harder to see them. There is a reason we have one pattern altitude.

But there is more than one, turbines are typically 1500ft AGL, bug smashers 1000ft AGL

 

[pfarber]

OP there is such thing as a 'teardrop entry' for entering the pattern. You either enter opposite side, at TPA, mid-field, or your stay at 500ft above TPA (1000ft above if turbine AC are present), fly at LEAST 2 miles away from the downwind leg and enter on a 45, midfield. PHAK 14-3-14-4

There is a 'teardrop entry' procedure for IFR.. that's why proper terminology is important.

 

[midlifeflyer]

He was saying that the turn into the 45 for the downwind was a chance to do a steep turn. Why is that stupid? That's literally the FAA recommended entry when approaching from the opposite side of the pattern.

Whoa! Where does the FAA description of the midfield crossover-return involve doing steep turns?

 

[WDD]

1) Approach in a way that won't surprise and get close to others
2) Tell people what you're doing
3) Give yourself a way out if/when others do something unexpected

IMHO, do those three and things generally work out.

 

[WDD]

You call it a tear -drop and I call it a steep turn into the down wind. who doesn't like to practice steep turns?

FWIW - I read this as sarcasm. Steep turns in a pattern, when going slow and low, not a good idea.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Adding to your post…. The FAA strongly advocates a 45° entry. The “teardrop” completed correctly allows the pilot to complete a course reversal and enter 45° to a midfield downwind.


The sentences that accompanies the diagram that no one bothers reading.

“When well clear of the pattern -approximately 2 miles- the pilot should scan the area carefully for traffic, descend to the pattern altitude, then turn right to enter at 45°to the downwind leg at midfield.”

“Why is it advantageous to use the 45° entry? If it is not possible to enter the pattern due to conflicting traffic, the pilot on the 45° can continue to turn away from the downwind, fly a safe distance away, and return for another attempt to join on the 45° entry - all while scanning for traffic.

I wish the FAA would modify their diagram more to scale because now one reads these days.

you make a great point. The real problem with “teardrop” I see is that pilots fly it too damn close and descend while turning back to the 45. Heck, even in this thread, we’ve had descriptions of it as involving a turn to downwind, even as a steep turn at and below 1500 AGL.

Going two miles out, then descending normally to pattern altitude, then turning to the 45 will put you about 3 miles out before turning toward the runway. That should be “well clear” even if student pilots are doing 737 patterns. And if not, go further to be “well clear” of the pattern.

 

[midlifeflyer]

FWIW - I read this as sarcasm. Steep turns in a pattern, when going slow and low, not a good idea.

I felt the same way when I read it. But in this thread, who knows? After all, it seems someone else defended the “steep turn” description.

 

[pfarber]

1) Approach in a way that won't surprise and get close to others
2) Tell people what you're doing
3) Give yourself a way out if/when others do something unexpected

IMHO, do those three and things generally work out.

Have you been to many uncontrolled fields?

Some local yahoo in a cub with NO radio because a $200 handheld is a dumb idea, cuts off all pattern traffic because he's low and slow? (Hazelton PA)

Student AND CFI land on the other end of the runway me and my CFI were LINED UP FOR TAKE OFF on because he could make the first turn off.. and we could wait 30 seconds. They were flying to Wyoming Valley airport for a checkride... that got cancelled when we announced over the UNICOM what they did.

So many IFR practice approaches thinking that they have priority and calling a 10 mile straight in means something to a guy on base.

So many more.... SO. MANY. MORE.

 

[pfarber]

Whoa! Where does the FAA description of the midfield crossover-return involve doing steep turns?

Especially when they clearly state to fly AT LEAST 2 miles away from the downwind.

Again, PHAK 14-3 14-4

 

[Clip4]

I felt the same way when I read it. But in this thread, who knows? After all, it seems someone else defended the “steep turn” description.

I didn’t think it was sarcasm because I see pilots doing it.

 

[flyingron]

I almost always approach our field from the direction I'll be landing at it. I fly an upwind to the right of the field which gives me the opportunity to see the other aircraft on the ground and in the pattern. Turn crosswind and then downwind normally.

 

[AV8R_87]

I almost always approach our field from the direction I'll be landing at it.

Just announce a 20 mile final and expect everyone to get out of the way because "final".

 

[MauleSkinner]

you make a great point. The real problem with “teardrop” I see is that pilots fly it too damn close and descend while turning back to the 45. Heck, even in this thread, we’ve had descriptions of it as involving a turn to downwind, even as a steep turn at and below 1500 AGL.

Going two miles out, then descending normally to pattern altitude, then turning to the 45 will put you about 3 miles out before turning toward the runway. That should be “well clear” even if student pilots are doing 737 patterns. And if not, go further to be “well clear” of the pattern.

Which is why 3 minutes in a 150 seems awfully short.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Which is why 3 minutes in a 150 seems awfully short.

Yeah, I guess it does, but as I recall, he was complaining about it being too long. Maybe I misread.

 

[Palmpilot]

Just announce a 20 mile final and expect everyone to get out of the way because "final".

If the planes in the pattern are flying normal-size patterns for bug smashers, I think the "unless well clear" exception in 91.113(b) would apply.

 

[hindsight2020]

truly, to a canary a cat is a monster. The turn diameter of a CatA lawnmower at 30* and 90knots is .4NM. At 120kts it's 3/4NM. I mean this with empathy because I was once a low-time neophyte, but some of you folks may just be too jittery for this endeavor. I don't expect people to do what we do in the UPT pattern, and we make this work very well in a much more dangerous and dense environment mind you. But the fundamental assumptions that couch the distance assumptions remain the same. Cat A/B go-karts should be able to do the entire thing within a 3NM bubble of the center of mass of the airport. It's not diamond-4 crossunders we're asking of people here, be we do expect private pilots to be able to point a lift vector in more than 2-D however. This isn't airline train-- oh wait a minute

 

[Salty]

truly, to a canary a cat is a monster. The turn diameter of a CatA lawnmower at 30* and 90knots is .4NM. At 120kts it's 3/4NM. I mean this with empathy because I was once a low-time neophyte, but some of you folks may just be too jittery for this endeavor. I don't expect people to do what we do in the UPT pattern, and we make this work very well in a much more dangerous and dense environment mind you. But the fundamental assumptions that couch the distance assumptions remain the same. Cat A/B go-karts should be able to do the entire thing within a 3NM bubble of the center of mass of the airport. It's not diamond-4 crossunders we're asking of people here, be we do expect private pilots to be able to point a lift vector in more than 2-D however. This isn't airline train-- oh wait a minute

Yeah, the new crowd I hang with flying warbirds definitely do steep turns in the pattern, no doubt about it. They give me **** if I do a break with a 30 degree bank. But, in that case it’s important to do what everyone else is doing or you hose up the whole train.

 

[Half Fast]

I wish the FAA would modify their diagram more to scale because no one reads these days.

Or if people would just read the text in the diagram itself!

 

[MauleSkinner]

Or if people would just read the text in the diagram itself!

If only reading and understanding English were something that you could count on pilots being able to do.

 

[TCABM]

Yeah, the new crowd I hang with flying warbirds definitely do steep turns in the pattern, no doubt about it. They give me **** if I do a break with a 30 degree bank. But, in that case it’s important to do what everyone else is doing or you hose up the whole train.

And the energy of an overhead break is managed much differently than the standard rectangular pattern. Regardless if solo or formation. There also (should be) additional training before doing a break the first time.

Since a the overhead is nonstandard though, it does change the risk equation when mixing with an active standard pattern.

 

[Half Fast]

If only reading and understanding English were something that you could count on pilots being able to do.

Yeah! There oughta be a rule!

 

[Daleandee]

Just announce a 20 mile final and expect everyone to get out of the way because "final".

I appreciate that info as I thought a 10 mile final was the limit (don't know where I got that from ). I'm guessing now that a call for final really has no limits ...

 

[hindsight2020]

I thought the standard was trial by aerial combat a la Watsonville CA.

Ya wanna be right or ya wanna go home to the frau and dependents type of thing.

 

[Daleandee]

I thought the standard was trial by aerial combat a la Watsonville CA.

As Radney Foster reminded us in his song: "Nobody Wins" ...