Still thinking about an RV-14

[tsts4]

Just remembered a few items:
- vise
- die grinder and some small 3M wheels
- Dremel

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I prefer the belt driven oiled models to the oiless variety as they are much quieter)

I would offer up a bit of an exception to that.
Now, I do have a "vintage" Sears oilless compressor that is stupid loud. When I had it in my shop, I would go outside when it was running. It now has a forever home at the airport where it gets used less often.
OTOH I have an oilless compressor from California Air Tools that is quiet enough that you can stand next to it and carry on a conversation without raising your voice. Quieter than belt driven oiled compressors that I have been around.

 

[tsts4]

I would offer up a bit of an exception to that.
Now, I do have a "vintage" Sears oilless compressor that is stupid loud. When I had it in my shop, I would go outside when it was running. It now has a forever home at the airport where it gets used less often.
OTOH I have an oilless compressor from California Air Tools that is quiet enough that you can stand next to it and carry on a conversation without raising your voice. Quieter than belt driven oiled compressors that I have been around.

I should have qualified my remark. I believe it’s pretty accurate with hobbyist/home level compressors typical of what you’d find at the big box stores.

 

[TCABM]

Before I go much further, I’m thinking about getting some angle and sheet aluminum just to figure out riveting.

 

[Jim K]

 

[Racerx]

View attachment 135538

I've seen far worse on completed rv's

 

[kyleb]

Before I go much further, I’m thinking about getting some angle and sheet aluminum just to figure out riveting.

This. Riveting is about the only building skill it takes time to develop.

 

[iamtheari]

This. Riveting is about the only building skill it takes time to develop.

Unless you count patience as a skill. That one takes forever.

 

[moparrob66]

Its definitely different, but the BD-4 is held together with a zillion screws. If riveting isnt your cup o' tea...

 

[tsts4]

Its definitely different, but the BD-4 is held together with a zillion screws. If riveting isnt your cup o' tea...

IIRC the internal BD4 structure is bolted or blind riveted while the skins are bonded on. However there’s plenty of aircraft kits out there that don’t use solid rivet construction so a potential builder has plenty of choices in that regard. That said, there’s reasons Vans has a huge E-AB market share. Oh and learning to rivet isn’t hard whatsoever.

 

[TCABM]

Unless you count patience as a skill. That one takes forever.

And that’s my real worry.

 

[Jim K]

Yeah, I didn't find riveting to be all that hard. Harder than pulling pop rivets obviously, but easier than producing a crisp, clean weld.

And that’s my real worry.

exactly

Most of my mistakes were a result of not reading the instructions EXACTLY. For example, one step said to cleco the bottom skin on to the spar and ribs, then rivet it to the spar. The next step was to rivet the top skin to the spar. Well, I couldn't get my hand in there because I had merrily riveted the entire bottom side down. So then I got to drill all those rib rivets out. When I went to re-rivet them, the holes were now somewhat loose from the first rivets expanding, which makes it a lot harder to make the second rivet look nice.

Another example, when I put the skins on to drill the spars (the ribs were pre-drilled), it looked like the skins and ribs were identical top & bottom. Got the first one in place and drilled, then went to do the other side and they were 1/4" off. It to me a while to even figure out what I did. I think the -14 plans are more handholding than some of the earlier ones, and enough people have been through it to find the gotchas, but verifying part numbers and positions before doing anything is critical.

I always liked metal work more than woodwork because a mig welder can make up for a little gap, and you can always stick a piece of metal back together if you have to. Sheetmetal work feels more like woodworking where if you screw up, you start over.

The other stupid mistake was having two cups of different length rivets sitting next to each other. You can guess what I did there. I did 5 before I realized why the shop heads looked so small. An426ad3-4...an426ad3-3.5...there's a difference.

Now I know to look out for those mistakes, so i guess the practice kit did it's job, but it kind of rattled me wondering what other unknown unknowns lurk in the project.

 

[tsts4]

Yeah, I didn't find riveting to be all that hard. Harder than pulling pop rivets obviously, but easier than producing a crisp, clean weld.

You got that right! Riveting is way easier and less time consuming to learn than welding (in my experience as a novice welder with a multi-process machine) especially to make anything close to aerospace quality. My welding is one step up from a monkey's, but I can rivet with the best of them.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Compressor noise is a safety feature. Mine causes me to leave the area from annoyance. When the tank comes-from-together, no one is around to be shrapneled.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Just for the fun of it, a 15 second clip were I turned on yea olde California Air Tools noise maker.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtube.com

 

[pfarber]

Its definitely different, but the BD-4 is held together with a zillion screws. If riveting isnt your cup o' tea...

Better have a firm grasp of countersinking as all those AN-3s are flush.

 

[Lndwarrior]

The rivet hole spacer thingy that accordions...

Create a rolling tool caddy! I didn't do this until i finished my build and realized how much time it would have saved me walking around looking for tools.

I added the 3 sided wood panels to a 36x24 rolling metal cart. It holds about 90% of the tools I use regularly on the aircraft.

You can spend as much time walking around the shop looking for tools as you can working on the plane

 

[Rcmutz]

Practice kit showed up a couple days ago, but the tools they tell you you'll need on the website don't match those on the instructions, so I'm waiting on some more stuff. One task I CAN do is build the back riveting plate, which is just a small steel plate, but includes a hole for dimpling up close to ribs. I decided I should use a drill press to make sure that hole was square, so I got that set up:

View attachment 135411

Missed this old girl. Haven't had it set up since we moved, and it was making me really sad seeing it in the corner getting dusty. It'll be nice to have it usable again.

I've been watching every RV build video I can find. Dropping subtle hints around the house like, "I'm going to build an airplane". Teresa has not said "no" yet, so that's a good sign. In fact today I got an "I know", so I think that means it's safe to order the kit.

I’m not so sure that actually means yes. Remember gender speak differences.

 

[Racerx]

You got that right! Riveting is way easier and less time consuming to learn than welding (in my experience as a novice welder with a multi-process machine) especially to make anything close to aerospace quality. My welding is one step up from a monkey's, but I can rivet with the best of them.

Aerospace certified tig welder here. Just as good with a stick or mig gun though. Most fun is carbon arc and exothermic cutting. Slag is going flying!

I could trade you some pointers...have bucked a few rivets but not enough to call myself competent. I suspect the key to good a rivet is a lot like a good weld. Prep work and fit up

 

[moparrob66]

I have a really nice shop, but I also have 4 kids, two of which are boys who also use the shop and, often, my tools. For any of the dozen projects I am "awarded", I spend 75% of my allotted time trotting around looking for that daggum tool I need. I cant blame it all on my kids, but I should probably change the keys on the shop before I tear into my kitplane project.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Create a rolling tool caddy! I didn't do this until i finished my build and realized how much time it would have saved me walking around looking for tools.

I added the 3 sided wood panels to a 36x24 rolling metal cart. It holds about 90% of the tools I use regularly on the aircraft.

You can spend as much time walking around the shop looking for tools as you can working on the plane

My wife bought me one of these and I have found it to be really useful when working in the garage:

SPEED BENCH MOBILE WORKSTATION - RYOBI Tools

SPEED BENCH MOBILE WORKSTATION

www.ryobitools.com

 

[George Mohr]

Do it!

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

 

[Jim K]

Well, you guys did a lousy job of talking me out of it.

S/N 141560 is on it's way.

Many tools have been purchased.

I've been working on Teresa's household list in the mean time so I can get away with disappearing to the shop full time when the kit shows up. In theory that'll be first week of February and I can hammer on it for a month before I get busy in the field. With my track record of aviation parts being on time, it'll show up the first warm, sunny day in April when I'm loading up the planter

 

[iamtheari]

Well, you guys did a lousy job of talking me out of it.

S/N 141560 is on it's way.

Many tools have been purchased.

I've been working on Teresa's household list in the mean time so I can get away with disappearing to the shop full time when the kit shows up. In theory that'll be first week of February and I can hammer on it for a month before I get busy in the field. With my track record of aviation parts being on time, it'll show up the first warm, sunny day in April when I'm loading up the planter

Does crop insurance cover long-term distractions? Asking for a friend.

 

[moparrob66]

Congratulations! Im looking forward to the build thread. Which engine will you use? A GM LS3 would move that sleek machine along nicely, with much better maintenance and parts availability, as well as AC and a great heater.

 

[Jim K]

Congratulations! Im looking forward to the build thread. Which engine will you use? A GM LS3 would move that sleek machine along nicely, with much better maintenance and parts availability, as well as AC and a great heater.

My hope is to use an angle valve IO-360 that I rebuild myself. I like the idea of building the whole thing and keeping the out of pocket cost down. I'm planning to do the "slow-build" route, so It'll be a while before I need to make that call. Apparently a front-governor version of that engine is preferred, but they're rare. The taildragger can use a more common rear-governor engine with some extra effort. Hoping to talk to Van's and explore that a bit more at Oshkosh.

 

[George Mohr]

If you haven't been there yet, take a look at vansairforce.net. Its an incredible resource just like this one, but focused on Vans RVs.

 

[TCABM]

Yeah, you’ll find vansairforce to be a very, very valuable resource.

I’m jealous you bit the bullet, but I haven’t convinced myself to build yet. I’m going to spend next year just dorking around with rivets and aluminum.

I’ve got a couple weeks off at the end of the month and am going to try building an aluminum brake and see how that goes first.

 

[ateamer]

Van’s Air Force is an outstanding resource. Just take what some of their most prominent members say with a grain of salt. They tend toward heavy, complex and expensive, away from the intent of RVs being light, nimble and affordable. Dual electrical systems, multiple big screens, automation all add to cost, build time, maintenance headaches, and more heads-down time. They’re mostly knowledgeable regarding building and technical matters, but are definitely Gucci.

 

[Jim K]

So I've browsed the entire RV14 subforum over there, and probably done 100 searches. Definitely a great resource. Also found a few builders with great videos on YT that I think will help.

I have been amazed at the amount of stuff ($$$) hung on these planes. Dual G3X and dual GPS boxes seems to be the standard along with at least four 10 bazillion candlepower landing lights. It's a far cry from my hangar neighbor's RV3 built with used avionics and steam gauges. You can really see the switch over the last 25 years from EAB being "how cheap can i fly?" to "What's the nicest plane I can have for a quarter million dollars?".

I would like to be IFR capable, but otherwise hoping to keep it as light and simple as possible. I'll probably stick with Garmin though so the logic remains consistent with my Lance. I'm not really thinking about avionics yet because that may have totally changed in the five years I'm expecting to take to get to that point.

 

[tsts4]

Now that you’ve pulled the trigger, here’s my build advice:
- try and do something every day no matter how small
- if you’re building at home, resist the urge to move to the airport as long as possible (unless you live right next to the airport)
- try to make your building environment as comfortable as possible for yourself. I’m not saying go whole hog and install an HVAC system, but fans and space heaters can help a lot (I did years worth of build work in my previous hangar and froze in the winter and broiled in the summer— KHEF, Manassas, VA)

You know about VAF but you may not know about the EAA “Hints for Homebuilders” videos. They have hundreds plus tons of webinars: https://www.eaa.org/videos/hints-for-homebuilders

 

[kyleb]

So I've browsed the entire RV14 subforum over there, and probably done 100 searches. Definitely a great resource. Also found a few builders with great videos on YT that I think will help.

I have been amazed at the amount of stuff ($$$) hung on these planes. Dual G3X and dual GPS boxes seems to be the standard along with at least four 10 bazillion candlepower landing lights. It's a far cry from my hangar neighbor's RV3 built with used avionics and steam gauges. You can really see the switch over the last 25 years from EAB being "how cheap can i fly?" to "What's the nicest plane I can have for a quarter million dollars?".

Ha. I think I have the only RV-10 completed in the last 3 years that cost <<$175k. With $30K paint, a bespoke panel, a Lexus interior, A/C and every other imaginable upgrade, you can spend a lot of money AND wind up with a heavy airplane that won’t fulfill its designed mission.

But it’ll win the ruler contest for paint, panel, and interior. ;-)

 

[Jim K]

Now that you’ve pulled the trigger, here’s my build advice:
- try and do something every day no matter how small
- if you’re building at home, resist the urge to move to the airport as long as possible (unless you live right next to the airport)
- try to make your building environment as comfortable as possible for yourself. I’m not saying go whole hog and install an HVAC system, but fans and space heaters can help a lot (I did years worth of build work in my previous hangar and froze in the winter and broiled in the summer— KHEF, Manassas, VA)

You know about VAF but you may not know about the EAA “Hints for Homebuilders” videos. They have hundreds plus tons of webinars: https://www.eaa.org/videos/hints-for-homebuilders

Just finished watching all 800 LOL. Okay, I skipped all the ones about wood & fabric

The building I'm planning to use is pretty underutilized. It's a detached two car garage, which ironically I essentially lived in when I was in high school (slept in a recliner out there many nights), working on cars & motorcycles. It was just a shell until I wired, insulated, and put up interior walls when I was 15. I gotta say, it's weird moving back into the house you grew up in.

The building is too short for a lift (height) or my new pickup (length), so it was just storing bicycles, motorcycles, and all the stuff from the move we hadn't sorted yet. Got all that stuff picked up and sorted...mostly. The propane furnace was shot, but I scrounged up a 5000W electric heater that's keeping up, at least for now. I plan to put one of those DIY mini-splits out there once the weather gets a little nicer so I can have AC in the summer. It's also serving as the garden shed and bee shed. The wifi reaches, and the old TV has been set up. All I need now is a new toolbox (ordered) and some long build tables. And you know....a kit...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

hoping to keep it as light and simple as possible.

There are more than a few T-18s out there that have an empty weight that is close to (or over) John Thorp's original design gross weight... Stuff adds up... Bigger engine, full panel (back in the day, that was gyros), constant speed prop, canopy, tooled leather interior, electric trim, bondo, bondo, and more bondo to cover up all the rivet heads...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

long build tables.

EAA Chapter 1000 Standardized Work Tables

or my new and improved version (IMO) (there is a video that goes with this, but it would be pretty much pointless to watch).

Beyond the EAA Chapter 1000 Standardized Work Bench.pdf

drive.google.com

 

[Jim K]

There are more than a few T-18s out there that have an empty weight that is close to (or over) John Thorp's original design gross weight... Stuff adds up... Bigger engine, full panel (back in the day, that was gyros), constant speed prop, canopy, tooled leather interior, electric trim, bondo, bondo, and more bondo to cover up all the rivet heads...

EAA Chapter 1000 Standardized Work Tables

or my new and improved version (IMO) (there is a video that goes with this, but it would be pretty much pointless to watch).

Beyond the EAA Chapter 1000 Standardized Work Bench.pdf

drive.google.com

I've managed to take like 60 pounds out of my Lance since I bought it. I wish I could have that kind of success on my own gross weight. I'm heavy enough though that I need to keep the planes light.

I'm fascinated by all the different approaches I've seen to retractable wheels. I haven't decided what I'm going to do yet. I'm leaning towards 2X MDF topped 2'x8' in addition to the pallet tables I built for my engine overhaul. The pallet tables will need a little overhaul themselves because I built them using a chainsaw. Quick and dirty; not super level or square.

I think I have enough 4x4's and reclaimed 2x4's to build the long tables without buying anything.

 

[Racerx]

The building I'm planning to use is pretty underutilized. It's a detached two car garage, which ironically I essentially lived in when I was in high school (slept in a recliner out there many nights), working on cars & motorcycles. It was just a shell until I wired, insulated, and put up interior walls when I was 15. I gotta say, it's weird moving back into the house you grew up in.

Don't drink any 25 yr old Natty lights you might find. It's not gonna be like wine and age better.

 

[iamtheari]

I didn’t have to move my tables often enough to justify wheels. I just dragged them around and re-shimmed the feet. (Remember when you asked why life has to be so hard? My basement floor would have been flatter if Tony Hawk had built it.) I do think I would have benefited from making two pairs instead of one, since sometimes I had a wing spar clamped across both of them and didn't have room left to work on other things.

 

[Racerx]

My hope is to use an angle valve IO-360 that I rebuild myself. I like the idea of building the whole thing and keeping the out of pocket cost down. I'm planning to do the "slow-build" route, so It'll be a while before I need to make that call. Apparently a front-governor version of that engine is preferred, but they're rare. The taildragger can use a more common rear-governor engine with some extra effort. Hoping to talk to Van's and explore that a bit more at Oshkosh.

Good post from Vans about engine options. They claim only the front mounted governor works. But the article is from 2015.

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=959224240815174&id=100072019614358

Deltahawk was going to make a firewall forward kit for the Rv14 if you like ****ing money away.