Steam Panel vs Legacy Glass

Which would you rather fly?

  • Steam Gauges

    Votes: 6 33.3%

  • Legacy Glass

    Votes: 12 66.7%
  • Total voters
    18
WhichWays_Up

WhichWays_Up

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WhichWays_Up
Ok, I've searched the forum and have recieved some info. Curious what others may think.

Hypothetical question with a side of "I may be looking at two aircraft and need a little hand-holding and possibly a hug".


#1: Steam with everything in fantastic working order. (Not my plane)

img (15).jpeg



#2: "Legacy Glass" Panel. (Also not my plane)

img (2).jpeg


I'm a sucker for round dials (and ladies). Glass will always provide better situational awareness. But I see a bunch of screens that have now been replaced with better, faster processors, more of them pixel things and better backlighting.

I look at round dials as something that will always be the same. No firmware updates and the screen resolution always stays the same......seeing as there is no screen. It's an actual object. IFR or VFR, I do like em.

If these two identical (sorta) aircraft were on your list, which would you actually prefer to own?
 
The newer glass panels give you a more complete situational awareness and support IFR operations & an autopilot.

If I sold you a perfectly good aircraft that had everything EXCEPT the panel. Which panel would you buy?? Steam gauges or glass.

IMG_8536.jpeg
 
rockyfatcat said:
The newer glass panels give you a more complete situational awareness and support IFR operations & an autopilot.

If I sold you a perfectly good aircraft that had everything EXCEPT the panel. Which panel would you buy?? Steam gauges or glass.

View attachment 155190
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That glass panel cost so much you had to sell your whole interior! :eek:


Seriously, I would obviously go glass if you gave me a plane without a panel in it. I may be stupid, but I'm not dumb.....

I would assume starting fresh, you'd spend more money getting steam instruments in the panel lol.

Edit: Spelling
 
If you intend to frequently fly (125+ hrs per year) that includes some hard IFR I'd tilt towards glass. Not so much for the sweet map and attitude and the rest of glass presentations, but to remain proficient in the total electronic integration and operation of the equipment.

In the last decade I average just less than 100 hrs/yr and my panels mix of Garmin 275's with round gauges (A/S, ALT/VSI, T/C) is perfect for me.

For me, when losing proficiency, smooth and efficient operation of the GNS-430 navigator is the first to go stale, which would also occur with all glass. Having a mix of round and glass works well for me, but an Avidyne IFD is on the short list of upgrades to replace the G430. YMMV
 
This..
AV8R_87 said:
Option 3: keep most of the steam stuff, put a couple AV30s or 275s in place of the AI/DG, a Garmin 175 or something similar so you can do legal IFR, and keep the fancy stuff on your tablet.

That way no single failure grounds the aircraft.
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and this....

midlifeflyer said:
#2. It’s not even close.

Change #2 to a legacy G1000, and my answer might be different.
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I didn't put in a "modern" all in one glass cockpit, because "modern" keeps getting old, is a single failure point, and is somewhat expensive. I have the "modular" approach in my plane. A six pack with four steam gauges and dual GI 275's, a couple of Garmin navigators, etc. When something gets old I can replace it without ripping our the entire panel.

AND some planes with glass such as a G1000 have that as part of the certification, which means you're stuck with it. You can't update it to a newer version from the non WASS whatnot you have.
 
Personally, I would choose legacy round over legacy glass, but new glass over either.

That said, replacing the vacuum gauges with 275s would upgrade situational awareness while retaining the "single instrument fault" benefit of the round gauge panel.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Ok, I've searched the forum and have recieved some info. Curious what others may think.

Hypothetical question with a side of "I may be looking at two aircraft and need a little hand-holding and possibly a hug".


#1: Steam with everything in fantastic working order. (Not my plane)

View attachment 155185



#2: "Legacy Glass" Panel. (Also not my plane)

View attachment 155186


I'm a sucker for round dials (and ladies). Glass will always provide better situational awareness. But I see a bunch of screens that have now been replaced with better, faster processors, more of them pixel things and better backlighting.

I look at round dials as something that will always be the same. No firmware updates and the screen resolution always stays the same......seeing as there is no screen. It's an actual object. IFR or VFR, I do like em.

If these two identical (sorta) aircraft were on your list, which would you actually prefer to own?
Click to expand...
What is Legacy Glass, as compared to just Glass?
 
RyanShort1 said:
I'm a steam-gauges guy, but... they are going to be harder and harder to get repaired and they have more moving parts.
Click to expand...
True, however, old glass will also lack updates and won’t be supported…

AV8R_87 said:
Option 3: keep most of the steam stuff, put a couple AV30s or 275s in place of the AI/DG, a Garmin 175 or something similar so you can do legal IFR, and keep the fancy stuff on your tablet.

That way no single failure grounds the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Experimental or certified?

Familiar with the BOM? https://shop.levil.com/

I’d lean something in the middle and also in the middle of the glass tech. As others will be upgrading to the latest and greatest, some more not ancient glass should be coming onto the market at better rates. And longer support timeframes. I’d imagine you can soon find some G3 displays on the cheap. With the G3 you could also integrate a not expensive GHA-15 radar altimeter and also the Garmin pressure diff AOA. Look for displays with backup batteries, for some such may have been an option not executed.

Lose the engine pump driven stuff, assuming fit keep the pneumatic driven pitot-statics… while you’re at it, consider a Lift Reserve, simple pneumatic pressure diff AOA (rotate the gauge ninety clockwise though)… probably keep the electric gyro. When you lose the engine driven stuff, take the pump out too. There is more than one plane out there carrying extra dead weight, and a potential gearbox hazard.

I’m a little hesitant on AV30s due to their AOA, I found the inertial driven AOA of the 20s unreliable. Makes me suspicious of the 30s. Otherwise would be a great instrument. In this no SA is better than bad SA. If you go for the 30, I’d turn off AOA and get something else to provide it. Or do a fair amount of testing it. I like the Garmin 275 and like them better than the G5. 275 stack would be great.

Though my plane is “glass light,” essentially steam with a map with a Dynon D10A Garmin G5 stack with old pitot-static and turn coordinator surrounding. To the right is a GNX-375, GNC-255, GTRx-205. I have a Lift Reserve top center while the Dynon is on a heated pitot with AOA though I have the Dynon tones only AOA display off. Audio panel is an old school Terra 350d. I have some configuration issues G5 to D10A using the G5 as gyro and D10 as horizon. Yes this seems opposite as the D10 is a touch slower, but the G5 readily takes nav data from 375 and 255. Similarly, don’t get range calculated in my FC-10 as it was used to an old signal from a gps. With that, have the FC-10, FC-50, a Blaze 2 tach, an old JPI EGT scanner, running PMAGs.

On electric gyro, you showed some not yours multis, what is yours and what do you do with it? There is actually value old school Turn Needle as opposed to airplane rear turn coordinator, especially if you do aerobatics. Best way to know spin sense is AOA while best way to know spin direction is turn needle. Coordinator can bite on roll as opposed to yaw in the inverted.
 
WDD said:
I didn't put in a "modern" all in one glass cockpit, because "modern" keeps getting old, is a single failure point, and is somewhat expensive. I have the "modular" approach in my plane. A six pack with four steam gauges and dual GI 275's, a couple of Garmin navigators, etc. When something gets old I can replace it without ripping our the entire panel.

AND some planes with glass such as a G1000 have that as part of the certification, which means you're stuck with it. You can't update it to a newer version from the non WASS whatnot you have.
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You knew exactly what I meant. The problem with G1000 is that updates/upgrades, including software/firmware, is controlled by the airframe manufacturer. Some are better than others about it, but it's a pretty widespread issue.

It's not even necessarily tied to original certification. The Diamond DA40 type certificate is for the non-G1000 model. The G1000 is an add-on, the subject of an AFMS, not the main POH (that's fun for aircraft checkout quizzes).
 
Ed Haywood said:
We need another name for digital gyros like the G5, GI-275 and AV-30. More than steam, not quite flat panel glass.

Round glass?

Digital steam?
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Why?

As far as I can tell, a pair of G5s coupled with a GTN navigator and a GFC500 is just as much "glass" as a G1000. You want individual names for the two G5s to equate with AI and HSI? That already exists. One is an ADI; the other an HSI. Want to differentiate them more from their steam equivalents? Sure. EADI and EHSI.
 
luvflyin said:
What is Legacy Glass, as compared to just Glass?
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Legacy Glass meaning the original G600, non xi GTNs and the JPI EDM (which you can actually still buy). This glass equipment is now "Legacy" equipment, replaced by Txi/Xi screens.
 
G1000? :no:

I've never been a fan of the G1000 system. But it seems to be in 90% of new aircraft still.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
G1000? :no:

I've never been a fan of the G1000 system. But it seems to be in 90% of new aircraft still.
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Don’t get me wrong, I like flying the G1000 system. I’ve flown and taught with them for 25 years with many of its variations. Non-WAAS with only semi-integrated KAP140. With WAAS and GFC700. Cessna, Diamond, Bonanza and Cirrus Perspective variants. Nxi.

But having flown and taught with others too, I think there are better choices considering the difficulty of upgrades.
 
Ed Haywood said:
We need another name for digital gyros like the G5, GI-275 and AV-30. More than steam, not quite flat panel glass.

Round glass?

Digital steam?
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Air Data Attitude Heading Reference System (ADAHRS) if pitot and static are connected. Attitude and Heading Reference System (AHRS) if not. The “glass” is just the display. In the case of the round (and G5) instruments, they are AI and DG/HSI etc. The big square ones (or smaller rectangular one) are Primary Flight Displays (PFD).

Some displays and Some GPS boxes include ADAHRS or AHRS. Sometimes it’s a separate box. An important point that gets lost (in my opinion) is what is included in the Type Certificate (TC). That can be a costly gotcha if not well understood.

I always thought “steam” gauges was a stupid term. Is it that hard to say Vacuum? Digital Gyros are mostly Micro Electro-Mechanical Systems (MEMS) devices. Some INS are laser based.

So, glass is just as good or bad as any other name because it really doesn’t describe anything.
 
szwinger said:
Air Data Attitude Heading Reference System (ADAHRS) if pitot and static are connected. Attitude and Heading Reference System (AHRS) if not. The “glass” is just the display. In the case of the round (and G5) instruments, they are AI and DG/HSI etc. The big square ones (or smaller rectangular one) are Primary Flight Displays (PFD).

Some displays and Some GPS boxes include ADAHRS or AHRS. Sometimes it’s a separate box. An important point that gets lost (in my opinion) is what is included in the Type Certificate (TC). That can be a costly gotcha if not well understood.

I always thought “steam” gauges was a stupid term. Is it that hard to say Vacuum? Digital Gyros are mostly Micro Electro-Mechanical Systems (MEMS) devices. Some INS are laser based.

So, glass is just as good or bad as any other name because it really doesn’t describe anything.
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Names for Groups: A Pedantry of Pilots.
 
Piperonca said:
Names for Groups: A Pedantry of Pilots.
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On the other hand we could just call it Digital Voodoo and Mechanical Voodoo. Or let’s just call all the different implementations and capabilities Bob and Not Bob.

No need to understand Systems as a Pilot
 
Bob Noel said:
huh?
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When the names do not reflect the underlying distinctions then any old random name is sufficient. Glass and Steam is what we have now. Call Glass bob. Call steam not bob. Wouldn’t want to be Pedantic
 
I thought a group of pilots was called a "Gaggle"? Or maybe a "Shmattering' of pilots.
 
I'm going to go with "it depends"... What is the actual equipment involved?

Some legacy glass, like the G500, can be updated for a fairly reasonable price to a G500 TXi display but using the original sensors and such. Gives you a new display, a new CPU, and likely a number of years more support.

If there's a whole lot of about-to-be-unsupported stuff, just be aware that you may be in for a big bill at some point.

Steam gauges are less reliable and cost money to maintain as well - Moving parts and all.

If I were shopping, I'd want either some reasonably new-ish glass stuff, or a really old panel with nothing worth keeping in it (and priced accordingly) so that I could just update to an Axis or something.
 
Thanks for the input/output folks. Seems like "Legacy Glass" is the clear winner. One nice thing about that particular panel, is you could still add a modern GFC 600 to it. No Txi needed.
 
WhichWays_Up said:
Thanks for the input/output folks. Seems like "Legacy Glass" is the clear winner. One nice thing about that particular panel, is you could still add a modern GFC 600 to it. No Txi needed.
Click to expand...
On the vans air force site guys are selling brand new in box, never installed, never been turned on, G3X’s for $2500 ish. Some folks gotta have the latest greatest, ie AXIS.
 
I'm old with 50 years of flying steam gauges and only a few hours behind a glass panel. Glass that doesn't digitally replicate steam gauge indicators takes me longer to interpret. I can't just glance at the panel and know whether I'm in the sweet spot, or in trouble. With steam gauges, a quick glance tells me what I need to know. I might adapt if I spent more time behind glass, but that isn't likely. A failed mechanical gyro in my attitude indicator led me to buy an AV-30 unit from UAvionics, but all of the available screens on that unit replicate steam gauge indicators, so it is a wash in terms of situational awareness for me. I'm done with IFR now. It was always work for me and required too much concentration since I don't have an autopilot. Now that I'm retired, I'd rather be stuck on the ground for a few days than file IFR and fly through muck to get where I'm going. Back when I was flying IFR and had schedules to keep, I picked up unexpected ice a couple of times and that scared me. Flying VFR I don't have to contend with ice, and a little carb heat has eliminated the few carb ice events I've had. Since I only fly VFR these days, the panel has faded in importance and certainly isn't worth the cost of upgrading.
 
I would buy the plane with the steam gauges, and put in modern glass panel. :D
 
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