Squawk Codes??

ADS-B is not required equipage except in certain airspace.
 
pmanton said:
When ADSB is the law of the land will squawk codes still be used? If so Why. Your ID will be right there on the radar.
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Yes. Discrete transponder codes fall under ATC rules/procedures/environment and numerically indicate additional info other than only a flying aircraft's ID.
 
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Is ADS-B a USA thing only? Or does it work in foreign airspaces too?
 
By your argument squawk codes were obviated by Mode S. I've had mode S for 14 years and it has never made a difference to ATC.
 
So, as a follow-up question, will the need to IDENT go away?
 
Ryanb said:
So, as a follow-up question, will the need to IDENT go away?
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IDENT is a "point me out so ATC can quickly find/confirm on their display who just called" tool. Don't see the connection with whether or not you are equipped with ADS-B.
 
flyingron said:
Why should it go away?
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Well, since Mode S is tied to a specific airplane, there would be no need to ident since theoretically (or actually) the controllers already know the identification of the target.

Also, as CPDLC becomes more widespread, even TALKING to a controller will become optional.
 
chemgeek said:
ADS-B is not required equipage except in certain airspace.
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It is required for flight services, which is the only time you’d get a code, no?
 
chemgeek said:
IDENT is a "point me out so ATC can quickly find/confirm on their display who just called" tool. Don't see the connection with whether or not you are equipped with ADS-B.
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Yes, but maybe I should rephrase my question.

With the use of ADS-B, the IDENT function MAY be less needed than it was in the past?

Busy and cluttered airspace would likely still find benefit from IDENT. Quiet, Class C airspace might not as much.
 
Ryanb said:
Yes, but maybe I should rephrase my question.

With the use of ADS-B, the IDENT function MAY be less needed than it was in the past?

Busy and cluttered airspace would likely still find benefit from IDENT. Quiet, Class C airspace might not as much.
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If IDENT is principally used to confirm to location of a particular aircraft in question by highlighting its position on a controller's display, why would it be used less (or more) than previously?
 
Salty said:
It is required for flight services, which is the only time you’d get a code, no?
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To my knowledge, ADS-B is required only when operating in relevant airspace, and is not connected to any services provided, including filing and flying an IFR flight plan. Has that changed?
 
Mode S and ADS-B have been in use for sometime now and the same mode 3/C procedures are still being used for them.

You’d have to do a software upgrade to allow the system to do automated handoffs with ADS-B and no squawk code. An ADS-B tag on a scope means nothing. The system requires the aircraft to be tagged up based on the squawk that’s in the NAS computer. In other words, you can’t flash (handoff) an ADS-B tag without the flight plan info being in the software (STARS).

As far as ident, that would have to be a policy change as well. In order for that to happen, ADS-B alone would be allowed to be established for secondary radar contact procedures. That would be a technical evaluation that the pencil pushers would have to decide that the ADS-B target is so reliable, there’s no point in reconfirming it with an ident. I suppose that’s possible. In 8 years of doing ATC, I never once saw an aircraft’s code or tag not displayed on the correct aircraft.
 
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pmanton said:
When ADSB is the law of the land will squawk codes still be used? If so Why. Your ID will be right there on the radar.
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I’m not aware of any differences reference ATC and ADS-B from December 31, 2019 and January 1, 2020 other than the requirement to be equipped in certain airspace.
 
chemgeek said:
To my knowledge, ADS-B is required only when operating in relevant airspace, and is not connected to any services provided, including filing and flying an IFR flight plan. Has that changed?
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I may be confused. I’m not sure. Maybe I’m confusing anonymous mode with no adsb
 
Reason 1: When you are IFR or VFR with flight following, your flight plan is transmitted along with a computer generated squawk code...if you filed 2 IFR flight plans, the squawk code you’re using is how the system knows which one is active.

Reason 2: When you are on an assigned squawk code, your aircraft ID is able to be manipulated by ATC and your data tag is assigned to a specific controller/sector...the radar system passes your info based on your squawk code rather than your callsign. Occasionally there will be two “UAL694”s active at the same time. Both flight plans can be active because they’ll be on different squawk codes. Yes, one will probably need a manual handoff, but both flights can be active at the same time this way.

Reason 3: If every aircraft showed a full datablock from their ADS-B, there would be too much clutter on the scope. Issuing a discrete code to participating aircraft gives them a full datablock, while the ones not participating remain limited datablocks (squares with a mode C readout) and take away the clutter problem.

Right now the biggest benefit to ADS-B (in my opinion) is that it helps with situational awareness in the cockpit. On the ATC side I can pull up a target and get their tail number and find out their aircraft type. That helps when I am issuing traffic to someone not talking to ATC.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Is ADS-B a USA thing only? Or does it work in foreign airspaces too?
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It's international. I know it's used in Australia and the North Sea, and many of the airliners I encountered in the Middle East and Asia had it too.
 
Radar Contact said:
I’m not aware of any differences reference ATC and ADS-B from December 31, 2019 and January 1, 2020 other than the requirement to be equipped in certain airspace.
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Kevin, do you guys even see ADSB info up in the tower? If so is it always immediately and seemlessly integrated into your displays our do you have to look another/optional screen or layer?
 
I think its kinda funny. Everyone actually has until January 2nd if i understand the wording right. So you can fly unequipped in those airspaces one day in 2020.
 
Bell206 said:
Yes. Discrete transponder codes fall under ATC rules/procedures/environment and numerically indicate additional info other than only a flying aircraft's ID.
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the term discrete transponder code always bothers me. How is it discrete when ATC gives you the number over frequency?
 
Sinistar said:
I think its kinda funny. Everyone actually has until January 2nd if i understand the wording right. So you can fly unequipped in those airspaces one day in 2020.
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It’s January 1...

You have until midnight on the 31st to comply.
 
TommyG said:
the term discrete transponder code always bothers me. How is it discrete when ATC gives you the number over frequency?
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How does the method of receiving have any impact on whether it is discrete?
 
Weekend Warrior said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a transponder only needed in certain airspace?
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It's REQUIRED pretty much everywhere ADSB is .
Howevef, if you have one, it's required to be on any time you are in controlled airspace (which these days is essentially everywhere).
 
Sinistar said:
Kevin, do you guys even see ADSB info up in the tower? If so is it always immediately and seemlessly integrated into your displays our do you have to look another/optional screen or layer?
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There is a function on the radar scope to see ADS-B data. It takes a couple of keystrokes if you’re on a 1200 code, and less if you’re already tagged up. We get your tail number and mode S hex code. There is a way to see all ADS-B equipped aircraft on the scope at once, but that function hasn’t been turned on where @Radar Contact and I work.
 
Jmcmanna said:
There is a function on the radar scope to see ADS-B data. It takes a couple of keystrokes if you’re on a 1200 code, and less if you’re already tagged up. We get your tail number and mode S hex code. There is a way to see all ADS-B equipped aircraft on the scope at once, but that function hasn’t been turned on where @Radar Contact and I work.
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Thanks for explaining. I thought I had heard or read somewhere that ATC doesn't necessarily see all ADSB out directly at all times. But it sounds like you can draw it up pretty quickly if needed.
 
@Ryanb I am pretty sure the FAR wording says "After January 1 2020..." thus the bonus day. Maybe I am reading it wrong. I think Avweb even called out the bonus day too, either way no big deal.
 
Why would a website or a video superceded the FAR. Especially when both reference the FAR which also happens to be the final authority unless some official finding is overruling it.

Plus isn't this like tax day. Just because the date is April 15th it doesn't mean you have until the end of the 14th. You have all of the 15th.

If your boss said "Turn in your project hours by Friday"...it includes Friday.

Another FAR that could be a bit more specific.
 
pmanton said:
When ADSB is the law of the land will squawk codes still be used? If so Why. Your ID will be right there on the radar.
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Ofcorse
Did you actually think ADSB was for safety or convenience lolz!
 
Do you think the ADS-B cops will be out on January 1 (or 2 even) looking for those with only a regular mode S or C transponder?
 
flyingron said:
Do you think the ADS-B cops will be out on January 1 (or 2 even) looking for those with only a regular mode S or C transponder?
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With the exception of the New York / DC area, maybe southern Florida and maybe SoCal - why would they even bother. And it doesn't sound like the controllers will even see it without turning on a few things. The good part is we'll see more (but not all) traffic. Pretty easy to check though. Just sit at any airport under the veil and use a stratus+ipad to check while they taxi, land and takeoff. Would suck to get ramp checked without it and end up with the plane grounded until its fixed. Skybeacon to the rescue!
 
Ryanb said:
It’s January 1...

You have until midnight on the 31st to comply.
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No, the rule kicks in at 12:00.01 on Jan 2, 2020. So you do have one full day in January. Here is the precise wording in the rule:

Sec. 91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment and use.
(a) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft in Class A airspace unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—
(1) Meets the performance requirements in TSO-C166b, Extended Squitter Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) and Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B) Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of 1090 Megahertz (MHz); and
(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.
(b) After January 1, 2020, and unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft below 18,000 feet MSL and in airspace described in paragraph (d) of this section unless the aircraft has equipment installed that—
(1) Meets the performance requirements in—
(i) TSO-C166b; or
(ii) TSO-C154c, Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Equipment Operating on the Frequency of 978 MHz;
(2) Meets the requirements of § 91.227.
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Jan 1, 2020 is not After Jan 1, 2020, but Jan 2, 2020 is!


Here is an excerpt from 91.207 Emergency locator transmitters regulation of the wording when the effective day includes the date:
(ii) No person may operate the aircraft more than 90 days after the ELT is initially removed from the aircraft; and
(11) On and after January 1, 2004, aircraft with a maximum payload capacity of more than 18,000 pounds when used in air transportation.
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Ah, pedantic members at their best!

“It’s on the 1st”

“No it’s after the 1st”

“Technically it begins at midnight on the 2nd which means it’s after the 1st.”

Geez... what’s 24hrs anyway? Not going to make much of a difference, except to y’all. :rolleyes:
 
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