Spin Recovery Training?
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mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your CFI might be a'feared of 'em! My old CFI used to send his spin students to me to spin when I was a CFI 'cause he didn't like them. Of course he bought the beers after! 
Do some spins, and stalls will not intimidate you. Good training.
Do some spins, and stalls will not intimidate you. Good training.
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steingar
Taxi to Parking
My airplane had caged gyros, so spins were out. Haven't been part of the PTS for awhile, but lots of guys will tell you how important spin training is. Real experts they are.
Of course, it never hurt to ask.
Of course, it never hurt to ask.
James331
Ejection Handle Pulled
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James331
I did spin training before solo, if you're training in a spin worthy plane it's something that should be done pre solo.
Brad Z
Final Approach
What altitude above ground level do most fatal spins occur?
What altitude are most spins demonstrated?
Experiencing a spin is great, it's fun, and being able to recover is critical, but the easiest way to recover from a spin is not to get into one in the first place--i.e. stall/spin awareness training.
What altitude are most spins demonstrated?
Experiencing a spin is great, it's fun, and being able to recover is critical, but the easiest way to recover from a spin is not to get into one in the first place--i.e. stall/spin awareness training.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Well duh
! The point of spin training is to experience it, learn how to recover from it. Implying that all spins occur close to terra firma is misleading. They could happen at any altitude.
James331
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James331
Same deal with stalls.
Biggest factor is a FULL understanding of spins in all stages, plus going into and out of a spin yourself takes the fear of the unknown factor out of it.
Often those guys who you see landing at warp 3 have never done a spin.
Biggest factor is a FULL understanding of spins in all stages, plus going into and out of a spin yourself takes the fear of the unknown factor out of it.
Often those guys who you see landing at warp 3 have never done a spin.
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Velocity173
I did in sailplane training but not airplane PPL training.
Stearman
Pre-takeoff checklist
Yes and yes.
Spin training is part of the course where I learned, but we went up early when I was having trouble with power-on stalls. Entered an incipient spin on one and afterwards told the instructor that was the first time I'd been scared in an airplane. He said, "Oh, sorry to hear that. We'll get that fixed..."
Next lesson was nothing but spins in a J-3. Finished with a 6-turn spin on my own. Loved it.
Make sure your CFI is comfortable and you're in a plane that can do it. Face the monster now and he won't be as scary in the future and you'll know how to avoid him.
BradZ, this is the issue exactly. A spin is simply a possible development of a stall, not some entirely new unique thing. I don't know anyone who says pilots are better off not ever actually experiencing stalls, despite this focus on 'stall avoidance'. Those who skid around base to final turns, and stall/spin in the pattern are typically not those who are competent and comfortable with spins. And BTW, in many light airplanes, you CAN recover an incipient spin entry from down to about 500' AGL if you are very competent, and have developed the instinctive cognizance and musle memory associated with immediately manipulating the controls to recover. If you have no spin awareness, you won't know WTF is happening, and you'll sit there like a log until you hit the ground. Your choice. I've never understood pilots who dismiss the idea of so significantly adding to their experience and skillset. Those who think it's pointless have little to no experience with spins.
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As old as I am, the spin requirement didn't exist even back when I got my private. THat being said, my crazy flight instructor did them on the second lesson (just a demonstration) and on a later lesson I did recoveries from them. Of course, you have to find an aircraft that will really spin. A 152 barely will. A 172 is near impossible.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
BradZ- Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the POH of your airplane prohibit spins?
Jaybird180
Final Approach
steingar
Taxi to Parking
Feel sorry for the owner of that airplane. His gyros were just a caged as mine, and use as ruined as they would have been in my aircraft.
Jaybird180
Final Approach
I am firm believer in doing some spin training for my private students. So many pilots get he ground based spin overview and recovery lesson, but don't know how it feels, what it really takes to get into one, and how to actually recover.
alfadog
Final Approach
I think NASA spin testers could reliably get the 172 to spin 50% of the time. Thing I found to be the most important is to initiate the spin before the airplane stalls. That way you drive one wing to the stall and increase lift on the other well above stall.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Your CFI may or may not know how to properly recover from a spin. If he/she hasn't done a lot of for real spin training his/herself then it may be best to avoid it for now and get some real upset training from someone else later on.
Coloradokevin
Pre-takeoff checklist
At the flight school where I learned to fly (part of a university program) spins were not allowed until a student was going for their CFI. I was lucky enough to have an instructor who thought that was a dangerous restriction, and he did spin training with me on a promise that we wouldn't discuss it with the school.
In retrospect, I'm glad I had that training. I think it's important, and I think it should be taught earlier in a pilot's learning curve. It does seem that some instructors are afraid of spins. The one who did my BFR volunteered that he thinks they are important, and likes training them with his students… I might take him up for an hour or two sometime for a refresher on spins.
Personally, I found the first spin or two to be a bit scary, then enjoyed the hell out of them after that. Once you realize that you aren't going to die, they really are a lot of fun! During unusual/critical attitude training during my instrument rating, that same instructor stuck us in a spin while I was under the hood. I'm not sure this is a recommended maneuver, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have correctly recognized it as quickly as I did had I not been exposed to spins previously.
In retrospect, I'm glad I had that training. I think it's important, and I think it should be taught earlier in a pilot's learning curve. It does seem that some instructors are afraid of spins. The one who did my BFR volunteered that he thinks they are important, and likes training them with his students… I might take him up for an hour or two sometime for a refresher on spins.
Personally, I found the first spin or two to be a bit scary, then enjoyed the hell out of them after that. Once you realize that you aren't going to die, they really are a lot of fun! During unusual/critical attitude training during my instrument rating, that same instructor stuck us in a spin while I was under the hood. I'm not sure this is a recommended maneuver, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have correctly recognized it as quickly as I did had I not been exposed to spins previously.
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Coloradokevin
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm certainly no pro at this compared to many of you, but I'll definitely say that you can spin a C152 fairly reliably with the correct inputs. Admittedly, it will often recover by itself if you just let go of the pro-spin control inputs. But, I've done several 6-turn spins in a 152.
I still think I'd prefer doing any additional spin in a hard-to-spin plane like a C152… I'm not familiar with the plane in this video, but this looks like a *really* scary ride:
https://youtu.be/bvbS-oHi9ro
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RotorDude
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I did my initial training in a C-150, and in those pre-internet days I am embarrassed to admit I had no idea what either stall or spin were. At least until my 3rd lesson or so, when my crusty old (chain smoking) instructor told me to reduce power and keep pulling back on the yoke and do a "stall" (whatever that was). I obediently pulled the throttle and started pulling back, and although he did tell me to use the rudder to keep the ball centered, he never told me not to augment with the ailerons, and sure enough, just before my very first stall entry, my wing suddenly dropped so I put in full counter aileron input, and bam!
As the nose pointed what seemed like straight down and the ground started spinning itself into a blur (along with a replay of my life to date), I could hear my instructor ... laughing!
He waited a bit (I guess to drive the point home), then put in the counter inputs and got us out of it.
Needless to say, I was shaken and stirred, and to add insult to injury, as we walked back into the FBO, he told everyone within earshot about how I spun the 150.
Fortunately I quickly got over my fear of stalls after I read a bit about them and got to practice them more, to the point where I felt very comfortable practicing stalls on all my local solos.
But that was my last spin for a while, until I took aerobatic lessons (in a CAP10B) well after getting my PPL. Those were amazingly fun and I couldn't get enough of them, diametrically opposed to my first inadvertent one.
If I were teaching any primary student today, I'd definitely start with spins right after stalls, before letting them solo. But I wouldn't spring it as a surprise!
As the nose pointed what seemed like straight down and the ground started spinning itself into a blur (along with a replay of my life to date), I could hear my instructor ... laughing!
He waited a bit (I guess to drive the point home), then put in the counter inputs and got us out of it.
Needless to say, I was shaken and stirred, and to add insult to injury, as we walked back into the FBO, he told everyone within earshot about how I spun the 150.
Fortunately I quickly got over my fear of stalls after I read a bit about them and got to practice them more, to the point where I felt very comfortable practicing stalls on all my local solos.
But that was my last spin for a while, until I took aerobatic lessons (in a CAP10B) well after getting my PPL. Those were amazingly fun and I couldn't get enough of them, diametrically opposed to my first inadvertent one.
If I were teaching any primary student today, I'd definitely start with spins right after stalls, before letting them solo. But I wouldn't spring it as a surprise!
denverpilot
Tied Down
I've spun the crap out of both, both directions. It's not difficult.
I bet I know which place that is, if they're local. And its ridiculous. Talk to either of the two DPEs they like to use, and neither will agree with it either, just to add insult to injury.
For the OP, I'm squarely in the pro-spin training camp. Here's why. Airplanes spin. It's a normal behavior for airplanes.
Disregarding learning about things airplanes do naturally, means there's a hole in your knowledge as an airman.
That's not a ding on folks who have that hole, one may fly a lifetime never learning it. But they still have that hole in their experience.
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Aztec Flyer
Somebody straighten me out here...I was always under the impression that one caged the gyros (if that feature available) prior to unusual attitude air work and that helped to reduce (but not eliminate) the stress on the gyros.
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Aztec Flyer
As I read your post I started laughing as it brought back vivid memories. The EXACT same thing happened to me. Cessna 150, first flight ever in a light airplane (Cessna Pilot Center teaser fam flight in 1974 for $20 I think it was). Lots of altitude, power off stall, had reasonable success keeping the ball centered, left wing drop surprised me, same intuitive reaction - immediate full right aileron, same outcome. Instructor was laughing then too!
But good enough to take the time to explain and demonstrate what happened and then had me do a full spin entry and recovery with his guidance before we headed back. I got more than my $20 worth, and I was hooked. Once I could fly solo I used to take the 150 out, spend 15 minutes struggling for altitude in the summer heat, and see how many full turns I could hold it before I chickened out and initiated recovery, and then do it again.
Thanks for the memories.
I've done several unusual attitudes training courses over the years in a variety of different airplanes. Every pilot that thinks their life and the life of their passengers is important (and I am sure that's all of us) should seriously consider it.
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Brad Z
Final Approach
Yes. The 182 is prohibited from performing spins. I've spun other planes (including the supposedly spin-proof 172) that are approved for spins.
denverpilot
Tied Down
There's the old problem with that... How does an inexperienced CFI get the experience?
I find that to be a real bummer for those who've never done them. And I'm sure glad my first CFI had that experience and made me get it. It wasn't optional to him. Still isn't and he still teaches.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Yeah, that.
igorek82
Pre-Flight
I did 3 hours of spin training (upright, inverted, flat, accelerated, crossover... 13-15 turns each) in the Pitts S2C halfway through my PPL and the hardest thing was going back to flying a C172
I'm a firm believer that spin training is an absolute must in an appropriate airplane with a skilled instructor
I'm a firm believer that spin training is an absolute must in an appropriate airplane with a skilled instructor
Spun 150s regularly as a student, with and without my CFI; it spins (spun?) very nose down about 76 degrees, I recall, so you never felt creeped out that it would "flatten" out. But relax just a bit, and it recovered immediately. . .
The 172 is more ponderous, though a T-41 seemed easier to spin than a standard 172.
The 172 is more ponderous, though a T-41 seemed easier to spin than a standard 172.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
It was required when I did my PPL. The story I hear is that there were enough accidents during spin training that it was decided to not require it any more and focus more on spin avoidance. Most stall spin accidents occur at low altitude during the turn to final, to low to recover. It makes sense to not train to recover from something that is not recoverable from. I think spinning an airplane should still be a part of training so you can see and feel just what it is that you are avoiding. Go up to altitude, simulate the turn to final whiile pulling back the yoke to "stretch it out" and putting in some "inside rudder" to tighten it up and see what happens and just how fast it can happen and how much altitude can be lost in a couple seconds while very close to the ground. Have the CFI recover from it while the student just feels it and see how crucial it is to not do it.
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denverpilot
Tied Down
I believe you meant "inside rudder". The low altitude killer. People try to force the nose around the corner faster with inside rudder to the turn and that forces the nose down and creates an over-banking rate that they attempt to counteract with aileron opposite the direction of the turn, and the inside wing stalls.
Often exacerbated by them adding a gob of power.
Due to p-factor, torque, and all the left turning tendencies when power is added, Cessnas will fall off quicker in a left turn, to the inside, unfortunately, since that's the direction of turn of standard traffic patterns.
The gob of power will also hit the elevator at the same time as the inside rudder and, effectively push the nose up, while having the effect of adding even more inside rudder, accelerating the stall and starting the spin. (In fact, pushing in about half throttle right at a power off stall break with inside rudder helps get some airplanes to even start the spin. Cessnas love to recover early if the controls are released and will end up in a fast spiral dive with the nose way down, and build airspeed fast. This is killer spot number two where the panicking pilot pulls hard and either bends/breaks something or enters another accelerated stall, especially if they didn't pull the power to idle first, and they have any altitude left.
Outside rudder, especially power off, rarely can coax a spin out of a Cessna. It'll fall off nose down (slicing toward the inside both down and in) and enter a slipping turn. It takes a LOT of power and a hard pull on the elevator to get most Cessnas to go "over the top" and spin to the outside of a turn. Really have to work at it to get all but the worst rigged ones to go to the right that way. Left is a little easier.
VanDy
Cleared for Takeoff
I beg to differ on that. enough pro inputs and it sure will. A spin from an accelerated stall is a real hoot in one too!
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
Nothing to straighten out about your impression.
Somebody straighten me out here...I was always under the impression that one caged the gyros (if that feature available) prior to unusual attitude air work and that helped to reduce (but not eliminate) the stress on the gyros.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Oops. Wrong rudder. Corrected.
Bobcat1
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Spins were dropped as a checkride requirement before the FAA came out with the PTS.