Spin Recovery Training?

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

This is a fun one because it shows what can happen when you put in aileron or stick forward first in an airplane that spins well.

 

[steingar]

Somebody straighten me out here...I was always under the impression that one caged the gyros (if that feature available) prior to unusual attitude air work and that helped to reduce (but not eliminate) the stress on the gyros.

Not according to the manufacturer of mine.

 

[MauleSkinner]

There's the old problem with that... How does an inexperienced CFI get the experience?

I find that to be a real bummer for those who've never done them. And I'm sure glad my first CFI had that experience and made me get it. It wasn't optional to him. Still isn't and he still teaches.

That one's easy...there are lots of spin-expended instructors out there that a new instructor can learn from.

Even easier...don't accep the "minimum" of one spin recovery each direction during initial CFI training.

 

[Jaybird180]

… I'm not familiar with the plane in this video, but this looks like a *really* scary ride:

https://youtu.be/bvbS-oHi9ro

Well, shoot!

 

[James331]

Oops. Wrong rudder. Corrected.

Just step on the high wing

 

[CC268]

So not necessarily spin related...but when you guys got your PPL did you still practice stalls to keep yourself "up to date" WITHOUT a CFI or do you only practice stalls with a CFI present?

 

[denverpilot]

So not necessarily spin related...but when you guys got your PPL did you still practice stalls to keep yourself "up to date" WITHOUT a CFI or do you only practice stalls with a CFI present?

I go out about once a year and do a bunch of stalls, slow flight, ground reference, steep turns, etc... Not only to keep myself up to speed but also to make sure the airplane still behaves as it usually does.

 

[mscard88]

lol, oh you can spin a 172, especially if you through the coals to it once she starts spinning

I would just give it a burst of power to get the spin entry going. C150/152s were easier to spin.

 

[Sundancer]

I beg to differ on that. enough pro inputs and it sure will. A spin from an accelerated stall is a real hoot in one too!

Oh yeah, definitley. I took a T-41 for a CAP checkride a few years back (don't ask), and the check pilot, not an active CFI, wanted a power on stall. I brought the power back, but he wanted full power. I told him we'd climb a bit higher first.

He thought we were fine at 3K AGL, but I insisted. With 210 HP, half fuel, cold day, the deck angle was impressive. I kept the ball pretty close to center, and we dropped a wing a bit, but recovered fine. He wanted one, and I obliged. Yeah. Wing dropped, ball just a little off center, and he attempted to pick up the wing with aileron. To his credit, the spin recovery was textbook, barely a full turn.

 

[mscard88]

Hmm 3000' agl is fine for stall practice. Used it for many moons.

 

[Jaybird180]

Oh yeah, definitley. I took a T-41 for a CAP checkride a few years back (don't ask), and the check pilot, not an active CFI, wanted a power on stall. I brought the power back, but he wanted full power. I told him we'd climb a bit higher first.

He thought we were fine at 3K AGL, but I insisted. With 210 HP, half fuel, cold day, the deck angle was impressive. I kept the ball pretty close to center, and we dropped a wing a bit, but recovered fine. He wanted one, and I obliged. Yeah. Wing dropped, ball just a little off center, and he attempted to pick up the wing with aileron. To his credit, the spin recovery was textbook, barely a full turn.

I had 180HP in my 172S and never did full power stalls due to the pitch angle and spin potential. Last time I recall doing power on stalls in that airplane it was close to dusk on a overcast evening. Thanks for making me look like a chicken.

 

[coloradobluesky]

If you keep it level with the rudders, you'll be ok. If it goes off to one side, cut the power and do a spin recovery. Ive sat there with the power on stall bucking the plane up and then stalling it down over and over again. Good rudder control practice. Can scare the CFI. Doesnt scare me, I can spin it if I want (and recover). Spin recovery is not THAT hard. Going round and round in the spin is disorienting though, thats why its weird. That and the plane just isnt flying normally. Ground getting closer! Make sure you do way up, like 5000AGL. Thats what I do.

If you want spin training get it with an aerobatic instructor in and aerobatic plane. They all spin the heck out of it, no problems. Get away from spin fear by embracing the spin!

Of course you have to have a spin capable airplane too.

 

[drotto]

If I remember correctly spins and spin recovery are required for a CFI rating. Where and in what planes is that being done in?

 

[mscard88]

If I remember correctly spins and spin recovery are required for a CFI rating. Where and in what planes is that being done in?

Think I did it in a C152 but that was many moons ago.

 

[coloradobluesky]

Citabria's are probably most common. Cessna 150's and I think maybe 152s are pretty common too. Pitts is another one. You can spin a Super Cub, at least the original ones you can. Whatever you can find.

 

[bugsiegel]

Here's how I like to enter a spin. I like to stall it slowly with just a slightly high idle for a softer entry. Just at stall, I tip either way left or right with a slight aileron input followed with full rudder and full elevator which is almost fully in already. Then it's neutral aileron, hold the full rudder and full elevator. Power out once the stall is eminent. I find that the plane doesn't reach its settled-in rotation speed and attitude for two full rotations. I can hear it , feel it and see it. Once it's there, it's quite a comfortable place to be and ,for me ,the best time to adjust to what the plane is actually doing verse a squabbly plane into and quickly out of this maneuver. Stall horn is like music.
In the attached video I was loosing approximately 400 feet per rotation in a 172. Cell phone attached to mag compass. Above post is correct, it is slightly more willing to enter a left turning spin.
I feel PPL would be more comfortable in them if they were exposed to them not only more often but for more rotations. If I were an instructor this would be on my list of things to teach.
Enjoy,
http://youtu.be/MvsAfVbaFbE

 

[jordane93]

If I remember correctly spins and spin recovery are required for a CFI rating. Where and in what planes is that being done in?

Yes it is required. I did mine in a 152 and I really had to work hard to get it to spin.

 

[Brad Z]

It was required when I did my PPL.

Sure about that? The spin requirement was removed in 1949.

 

[whereisrandall]

Yesterday, I finished required spin training (C152) for my CFI ticket. It's fun and informative, but it's not terribly real-life. Real life is a trim stall from a student trying to go around with full flaps after a bounced landing and yawing one wing into the dirt, or a base-to-final turn bleeding off airspeed over the trees and mushing into them.

Sure, spin. It's great fun. But a better use of time is knowing the full stall series and how/why they happen. Take your feet off the rudder in a power on stall and see what it feels like, or in a power off stall, hold a right turn without rudder just as the stall warning horn goes off.

Then if your instructor will take you spinning, do it.

 

[saddletramp]

Believe this or not...I did spins with a student in a C-150 on his first lesson. It was his desire. I was a bit stunned but here's why.

He was an attorney that came from a very wealthy family. His father owned & flew all types of airplanes. His father used to scare his family at times & did stalls & told them if they weren't careful they'd enter a spin & die. I didn't say his father was wise or kind, I just said he had money.

This lawyer wanted to learn to fly but was deathly afraid of spins. So we took the 150 out & did multiple spins. I did the first few & then he did several after. He laughed all the way back to the airport after he had conquered this phobia.

He completed his PPL & became a very competent pilot & airplane owner. I told him if anyone ever saw spin training on his first lesson they'd think he had a psycho for a primary instructor!

Added note: Before you spin a 172 with an Avcon 180HP conversion read the placard where it states "spins not approved". Don't ask me how I know this. It was not very pretty.

Being a CFIG too and training glider pilots spin training for me is quite routine.

My opinion is that it should be required from Commercial on up.

 

[Sundancer]

Hmm 3000' agl is fine for stall practice. Used it for many moons.

I was good with 3K for Grandma stalls; just had some concern about all the rudder required at full power, maybe getting over on our back, etc. . .and secretly admitting I ain't Chuck Yeager. Turned out we didn't need the extra altitude, as you point out.

 

[luvflyin]

Sure about that? The spin requirement was removed in 1949.

I was. I see that the requirement for demonstrating spins during the check ride was removed in 1949. I was under the impression that spins were still required to be done during training until sometime not all that many years ago when the FAA not only said it wasn't required anymore, they said quit doing it.

 

[Witmo]

Feel sorry for the owner of that airplane. His gyros were just a caged as mine, and use as ruined as they would have been in my aircraft.

Old AIs could be caged meaning locked in place so they wouldn't tumble while doing violent maneuvers. Your use of the word "caged" is incorrect. Modem gyros shouldn't be adversely affected doing spins. They might take a few minutes to erect if they tumble but they should survive.

 

[GRG55]

It was required when I did my PPL. The story I hear is that there were enough accidents during spin training that it was decided to not require it any more and focus more on spin avoidance. Most stall spin accidents occur at low altitude during the turn to final, to low to recover. It makes sense to not train to recover from something that is not recoverable from. I think spinning an airplane should still be a part of training so you can see and feel just what it is that you are avoiding. Go up to altitude, simulate the turn to final whiile pulling back the yoke to "stretch it out" and putting in some "inside rudder" to tighten it up and see what happens and just how fast it can happen and how much altitude can be lost in a couple seconds while very close to the ground. Have the CFI recover from it while the student just feels it and see how crucial it is to not do it.

Canada used to require demonstrating the entry into a spin and the recovery from a spin as part of the Private Pilot flight test standard. In 1999 the Canadians did a study of stall/spin accidents, 39 of them in all, and the findings caused them to discontinue testing for spin entry and recovery, and refocus on stall recognition and prevention.

Of the 39 accidents all but one occurred at altitudes where once the airplane was allowed to stall the accident was all but inevitable because the airplane was too low to recover from a spin (which supports your point above). The one exception, at altitude, was a flight in IMC where the pilot stalled and successfully recovered the airplane three times, but #4 got him.

One other thing that came out of that study was despite spin training and testing students for proficiency during the PPL test the stall/spin accident rate for Canadian pilots was not much different from the USA statistics.

 

[Brad Z]

I was. I see that the requirement for demonstrating spins during the check ride was removed in 1949. I was under the impression that spins were still required to be done during training until sometime not all that many years ago when the FAA not only said it wasn't required anymore, they said quit doing it.

The FAA has never told anyone not to get spin training. The only requirement has been for flight instructor candidates to demonstrate spins on practical tests, although at the examiner's discretion he or she may accept an endorsement from an authorized instructor.

The main reason the FAA did away with the spin training requirement was to encourage manufacturers to develop spin resistant aircraft, which otherwise would have been ineffective as trainers.

 

[LDJones]

Just wondering if you guys did any spin recovery training for your PPL? I am wondering if it is something I should ask my instructor about at some point.

I know I'm "old school" but I don't solo students until they've had spin training. I've run across too many pilots in Flight Reviews that have an almost irrational fear of stalls because of the horror of spins that they've conjured up in their minds. So I remove the boogeyman before they solo. Most enjoy it and ask if we can do it again sometime.

 

[Witmo]

The FAA has never told anyone not to get spin training. The only requirement has been for flight instructor candidates to demonstrate spins on practical tests, although at the examiner's discretion he or she may accept an endorsement from an authorized instructor.

The main reason the FAA did away with the spin training requirement was to encourage manufacturers to develop spin resistant aircraft, which otherwise would have been ineffective as trainers.

It had nothing to do with encouraging manufacturers to do anything. The FAA saw more people getting killed doing spin training than were saving themselves after getting into inadvertent spins so they shifted the training requirement to spin onset recognition and recovery.

 

[Brad Z]

It had nothing to do with encouraging manufacturers to do anything. The FAA saw more people getting killed doing spin training than were saving themselves after getting into inadvertent spins so they shifted the training requirement to spin onset recognition and recovery.

Per the attached 1949 notice:

"elimination of the required spin maneuver will act as an incentive for manufacturers to build and operators of schools to use spin-resistant or spin-proof aircraft."

 

[James331]

Believe this or not...I did spins with a student in a C-150 on his first lesson. It was his desire. I was a bit stunned but here's why.

He was an attorney that came from a very wealthy family. His father owned & flew all types of airplanes. His father used to scare his family at times & did stalls & told them if they weren't careful they'd enter a spin & die. I didn't say his father was wise or kind, I just said he had money.

This lawyer wanted to learn to fly but was deathly afraid of spins. So we took the 150 out & did multiple spins. I did the first few & then he did several after. He laughed all the way back to the airport after he had conquered this phobia.

He completed his PPL & became a very competent pilot & airplane owner. I told him if anyone ever saw spin training on his first lesson they'd think he had a psycho for a primary instructor!

Added note: Before you spin a 172 with an Avcon 180HP conversion read the placard where it states "spins not approved". Don't ask me how I know this. It was not very pretty.

Being a CFIG too and training glider pilots spin training for me is quite routine.

My opinion is that it should be required from Commercial on up.

It should be required pre solo.

No biggie, especially if you teach falling leaf stalls first, step on the high wing.

Go do some proper spins, also have the student do a few spins trying to lift the low wing with the stick, few more proper spins. Bada bing

Per the attached 1949 notice:

"elimination of the required spin maneuver will act as an incentive for manufacturers to build and operators of schools to use spin-resistant or spin-proof aircraft."

Elimination of fire extinguishers and fire departments will act as an incentive for builders to make burn resistant homes too lol

.... The FAA saw more people getting killed doing spin training than were saving themselves after getting into inadvertent spins so they shifted the training requirement to spin onset recognition and recovery.

This makes zero sense of you think about it. If I get into a spin, step on the high wing, recover, continue on with my day, do you really think I'm going to report that to the Feds/NTSB?

They are only going to hear about the FAILURES not the SUCCESSES, anyone who says less training is better doesn't know much about training.

 

[Witmo]

It should be required pre solo.

No biggie, especially if you teach falling leaf stalls first, step on the high wing.

Go do some proper spins, also have the student do a few spins trying to lift the low wing with the stick, few more proper spins. Bada bing







Elimination of fire extinguishers and fire departments will act as an incentive for builders to make burn resistant homes too lol





This makes zero sense of you think about it. If I get into a spin, step on the high wing, recover, continue on with my day, do you really think I'm going to report that to the Feds/NTSB?

They are only going to hear about the FAILURES not the SUCCESSES, anyone who says less training is better doesn't know much about training.

The rate of spin related accidents decreased after the training requirement was changed. Looks like they were right.

 

[OkieAviator]

I did spin training post solo but pre XC solo. I wanted to know what it was like and have some hands on practical training for it. Enjoyed it and actually might go do the training again, cheaper than going to Disney.