Someone needs to learn lesson

C

ConcernedIFRguy

Guest
I have a friend (for real this time), who is a longtime pilot, flys at least 150hours a year and probably has had is license for 25+years. Holds a private license owns his own single engine 6 seater. Problem is he has no problem flying IMC busting ifr. Doesn’t file flight plans. Doesn’t go up when it’s horrible mind you but doesn’t let weather stand in his way. Went up last week for an hour flight and will causally admit he was IMC for 10 min in a 1 hour flight.
A mutual friend has and continues to give him a lot of crap about it. We have tried to push him to get his IFR rating. I am currentlt getting my IFR rating and working hard at it. My buddy is an IFR and commercial pilot. We both kind of lean on this guy and he just passes it off, excuses range from “I can’t pass the written..” “don’t have time to do it..” ect. I actually thought that by me going for my IFR it would stimulate him to just get it done.
Advice on how to approach him differently??
I don’t want to see him get hurt one day nor do I really want to be in the air in IMC when I see his plane out of the hangar either.
You’d think sooner or later a controller would flip. We fly out of an uncontrolled airport though.
 
Controllers have no way of knowing if you're IMC or not. They can deduce it by nearby traffic calling out IMC, but beyond that, it's based on the reported conditions on the departing/arriving airfield (aka 1000/3 or less) for the purposes of departing/arriving, otherwise reported conditions aloft by other traffic. They'll see a primary target (if he's not squawking) or a random 1200 ping that they have to keep IFR traffic away from.

Don't fret too much on the midair collision risk. The sky is much bigger than you give it credit for. There's not that many pirates punching through IMC not talking to anyone nor squawking. Seriously, when was the last time you heard or read of an air pirate colliding with participating IFR traffic?

The guy certainly has an attitude, if he feels cruising in IMC not talking to a soul is par for the course. I'm not condoning the practice, but to me there's a huge difference between punching through a "wispy deck" on your way to VFR over the top, and straight up departing out of an uncontrolled field while IFR wx conditions prevail on the field, not talking to a soul, just to park it in cruise in IMC. That's just asking to mort yourself as a non-IR guy. This guy has been flying for 25 years, so he's been doing it for a while now. Unlikely he'll change behavior now, especially if he's essentially pulling that stunt on MVFR conditions. LIFR conditions it's a whole ball of wax, as it would be much more difficult for him to sneak back down to the arriving field without using instrument guidance or without getting caught by participating IFR traffic on the ground.

As to what to do about it? Not much. Tell him on the bro level that he's being a douche by cruising in IMC. Considering his behavior, it's unlikely he'll have much regard for your objection. Don't obsess over the midair collision fear though, it's not a significant issue here. The guy will spatial-D one day and may have to allocute to his infraction real time, or the stunt may get away from him one day and get him killed. You said your peace, I'd sleep with a clear conscience personally.

Good luck on your IR training btw.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Don't fret too much on the midair collision risk. The sky is much bigger than you give it credit for.
Click to expand...

I wonder how many people fly IFR without talking to anyone and without the rating. I knew a guy about 10 years ago that would do the same thing in his two seater. If I remember correctly in one of his stories he bragged about flying out to Oshkosh from the east coast in mostly IFR conditions without talking to anyone. And that was just one of his stories.

I can’t belive people are that dumb and reckless.
 
Sounds like he's an idiot and a menace. It's true, as was said above, that the chances of an actual midair are probably quite small, but the chances of what would be a separation violation if he were IFR are much much higher, and since he's not talking to ATC, it makes keeping IFR traffic separated from him once it becomes clear that he's where he shouldn't be that much harder for ATC. If he flies IMC near airports where IFR ops are being conducted, then the risk of a midair rises considerably, especially if ATC radar doesn't reach down to pattern altitude (which is the case at my home base).

Personally, I would be torn between friendship and duty if I were in the OP's shoes. Stupid pilot behavior that poses a risk to my safety in the air is one of the few situations where I would consider ratting someone out to the FAA, if the Come to Jesus approach fails. A lot would depend on how well I knew the pilot and whether he takes steps to mitigate the risk he is posing to others, such as staying well away from airways and approach corridors and adhering to VFR altitudes.

I would have more respect for these scofflaws if they filed and talked to ATC and at least tried to operate inside the system, but most of them aren't competent enough to do that and they know it. If I knew someone who did that and he was a capable instrument pilot despite not having the rating, it would be none of my business - that would be between him and the FAA as far as I'm concerned. Which category does this pilot fall into?
 
If getting an instrument rating is "too hard" for him it makes me wonder how he's still alive.
 
Burdensome regulations keeping GA from the masses. As long as he’s got an iPad with Fore Flight and ADS-B in, he should fine forgoing the IFR.
 
dmspilot said:
If getting an instrument rating is "too hard" for him it makes me wonder how he's still alive.
Click to expand...
Two possibilities:

1. He has an autopilot and knows how to use it.

2. He has plenty of hours under the hood and has a good understanding of the instruments and how they work, but never bothered to learn the procedures and regs well enough to pass the written.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Controllers have no way of knowing if you're IMC or not. They can deduce it by nearby traffic calling out IMC, but beyond that, it's based on the reported conditions on the departing/arriving airfield (aka 1000/3 or less) for the purposes of departing/arriving, otherwise reported conditions aloft by other traffic. They'll see a primary target (if he's not squawking) or a random 1200 ping that they have to keep IFR traffic away from.

Don't fret too much on the midair collision risk. The sky is much bigger than you give it credit for. There's not that many pirates punching through IMC not talking to anyone nor squawking. Seriously, when was the last time you heard or read of an air pirate colliding with participating IFR traffic?

The guy certainly has an attitude, if he feels cruising in IMC not talking to a soul is par for the course. I'm not condoning the practice, but to me there's a huge difference between punching through a "wispy deck" on your way to VFR over the top, and straight up departing out of an uncontrolled field while IFR wx conditions prevail on the field, not talking to a soul, just to park it in cruise in IMC. That's just asking to mort yourself as a non-IR guy. This guy has been flying for 25 years, so he's been doing it for a while now. Unlikely he'll change behavior now, especially if he's essentially pulling that stunt on MVFR conditions. LIFR conditions it's a whole ball of wax, as it would be much more difficult for him to sneak back down to the arriving field without using instrument guidance or without getting caught by participating IFR traffic on the ground.

As to what to do about it? Not much. Tell him on the bro level that he's being a douche by cruising in IMC. Considering his behavior, it's unlikely he'll have much regard for your objection. Don't obsess over the midair collision fear though, it's not a significant issue here. The guy will spatial-D one day and may have to allocute to his infraction real time, or the stunt may get away from him one day and get him killed. You said your peace, I'd sleep with a clear conscience personally.

Good luck on your IR training btw.
Click to expand...

Last air pirate colliding with participating IFR traffic I can remember is Aero Mexico’s DC9 and a Cherokee over Cerritos. Happened in VMC. The Cherokee was ‘pirating’ by flying through the TCA(now called Class B’s) without a Clearance and avoiding detection by not turning on his transponder. That one led to the development of TCAS. I hope this guy at least leaves his transponder on squawking altitude
 
In theory, one could operate legal IFR without talking to anyone, if one remained entirely in class G airspace.
 
ConcernedIFRguy said:
I have a friend (for real this time), who is a longtime pilot, flys at least 150hours a year and probably has had is license for 25+years. Holds a private license owns his own single engine 6 seater. Problem is he has no problem flying IMC busting ifr. Doesn’t file flight plans. Doesn’t go up when it’s horrible mind you but doesn’t let weather stand in his way. Went up last week for an hour flight and will causally admit he was IMC for 10 min in a 1 hour flight.
A mutual friend has and continues to give him a lot of crap about it. We have tried to push him to get his IFR rating. I am currentlt getting my IFR rating and working hard at it. My buddy is an IFR and commercial pilot. We both kind of lean on this guy and he just passes it off, excuses range from “I can’t pass the written..” “don’t have time to do it..” ect. I actually thought that by me going for my IFR it would stimulate him to just get it done.
Advice on how to approach him differently??
I don’t want to see him get hurt one day nor do I really want to be in the air in IMC when I see his plane out of the hangar either.
You’d think sooner or later a controller would flip. We fly out of an uncontrolled airport though.
Click to expand...

If you have a friend at the FAA, or know of an inspector who frequents your airport, you can ask him/her to have a talk with this guy. Some unofficial admonishing from the FAA might be exactly what this guy needs.
 
Sac Arrow said:
In theory, one could operate legal IFR without talking to anyone, if one remained entirely in class G airspace.
Click to expand...

Ain’t no theory. That be the rules. There is practically no G airspace left in the US where you can do it though without breaking some other rule. Climbing to get above ground fog is about it.
 
Last edited:
Sooner or later ,if he’s using a transponder,they will figure it out,when they announce traffic a few times and the aircraft being notified ,says they are IMC. They have the ability track the sneaky aircraft.
 
The guy is a jerk and the sky is not as big as most think it is. Just about every other flight sometimes more, I need to make an adjustment in my path for another aircraft or be on the lookout for an aircraft either via FF or my own sight. We really need to be alert for traffic. People like your buddy are the reason why the accident rates are so bad for GA, the problem with his behavior is the odds of him taking an innocent with him when he goes.
 
I hope your friend is at least squawking altitude. :eek2:
 
luvflyin said:
Ain’t no theory. That be the rules. There is practically no G airspace left in the US where you can do it though without breaking some other rule. Climbing to get above ground fog is about it.
Click to expand...

Pretty much.
 
luvflyin said:
Ain’t no theory. That be the rules. There is practically no G airspace left in the US where you can do it though without breaking some other rule. Climbing to get above ground fog is about it.
Click to expand...
Even that would require the top of the fog layer to be no higher than 200 AGL where the floor of class E is 1200 AGL, and where the class E floor is 700 AGL, it wouldn't be possible to do do it without breaking the thousand-feet-above rule, which takes effect as soon as he climbs into the class E.
 
PaulS said:
The guy is a jerk and the sky is not as big as most think it is. Just about every other flight sometimes more, I need to make an adjustment in my path for another aircraft or be on the lookout for an aircraft either via FF or my own sight. We really need to be alert for traffic. People like your buddy are the reason why the accident rates are so bad for GA, the problem with his behavior is the odds of him taking an innocent with him when he goes.
Click to expand...

This is simply not true. Again, the mid air collisions far and wide gravitate to the severe VFR pancake fly-in saturday morning crowd all wanting to land in the same airport, as opposed to the the boogeyman of IMC pirates taking you out while IMC. GA's darling sausage fest, Oshkosh, and similar venues have more blood in their hands than IMC pirates ever did on this account. Those are rule-followers killing each other with great impunity btw. I recognize it feels good to admonish the scofflaws, but we're inventing a narrative to support our indignation. As for the rest of your point, I have no quarrel with the notion of remaining vigilant in the see and avoid business. That's frankly a pointless statement it's so universally agreeable.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This is simply not true. Again, the mid air collisions far and wide gravitate to the severe VFR pancake fly-in saturday morning crowd all wanting to land in the same airport, as opposed to the the boogeyman of IMC pirates taking you out while IMC. GA's darling sausage fest, Oshkosh, and similar venues have more blood in their hands than IMC pirates ever did on this account. Those are rule-followers killing each other with great impunity btw. I recognize it feels good to admonish the scofflaws, but we're inventing a narrative to support our indignation. As for the rest of your point, I have no quarrel with the notion of remaining vigilant in the see and avoid business. That's frankly a pointless statement it's so universally agreeable.
Click to expand...
There is probably not a lot of this going on at IFR airports where ATC radar can't see down to the FAF much less pattern altitude, but such airports do exist and anyone who does this around an airport like that is a real midair waiting to happen. Because such airports are in the minority, the statistics simply don't reflect the actual level of danger in that case. If I was out shooting approaches at KMPV and I got wind of someone cruising around in the clouds in that airspace, I would be more than indignant, I would be afraid for my life. And if I knew who the pilot was, I wouldn't hesitate to arrange an intervention.

We have no idea what kind of airspace the OP flies in, so it might be no real issue or it might be a serious hazard to air safety. Whether I would MMOB or take more aggressive action depends on details we're just not privy to. If the OP chooses to share them, we would have more to go on.
 
Velocity173 said:
Burdensome regulations keeping GA from the masses. As long as he’s got an iPad with Fore Flight and ADS-B in, he should fine forgoing the IFR.
Click to expand...

It happened before ADSB, but a VFR-rated couple using a tablet to wend their way through the Cascades in IMC ran into cumulgranite when Grandma pushed the wrong button and lost the picture...granddaughter survived to tell the tale.

Bob
 
Palmpilot said:
It happened before ADSB, but a VFR-rated couple using a tablet to wend their way through the Cascades in IMC ran into cumulgranite when Grandma pushed the wrong button and lost the picture...granddaughter survived to tell the tale.

Bob
Click to expand...

NTSB report # ???
 
hindsight2020 said:
This is simply not true. Again, the mid air collisions far and wide gravitate to the severe VFR pancake fly-in saturday morning crowd all wanting to land in the same airport, as opposed to the the boogeyman of IMC pirates taking you out while IMC. GA's darling sausage fest, Oshkosh, and similar venues have more blood in their hands than IMC pirates ever did on this account. Those are rule-followers killing each other with great impunity btw. I recognize it feels good to admonish the scofflaws, but we're inventing a narrative to support our indignation. As for the rest of your point, I have no quarrel with the notion of remaining vigilant in the see and avoid business. That's frankly a pointless statement it's so universally agreeable.
Click to expand...
I talked about my experience with the big sky theory in my post, it's foolish to think you are safe from a midair because the sky is big. You feel good looking at your stats I'll feel good looking out the window.
 
I believe it is OK is OK to risk your own life. You wanna do low altitude acro in your airplane over the corn fields of Illinois? Knock yourself out. Fly IFR into the biggest thunderstorm you've ever seen out over the swamps? Fine.

But flying bandit IFR in IMC ain't cool. You are knowingly placing others at risk.

Given that he has no proof, the OP could notify the FAA. A little arm bending by an FAA rep might change behavior.
 
1000/3 only means something to airports with a controlled airspace surface area. Everywhere else, it's up to the pilot to decide if he's VFR or not, and if you're in class G, that's often just a mile and clear of clouds. Even when landing IFR, it's the FLIGHT VISIBILITY (what the pilot sees) that determines if you've made minimums or not.
 
luvflyin said:
NTSB report # ???
Click to expand...

Don’t recall the #, but it was a Bo on the east side of the cascades in WA. Granddaughter survived and found her way out to a road. Happened a couple/few years back as I recall.
 
PaulS said:
Yep, keep those blinders on, tunnel vision..... that's exactly what I was talking about, look out the window when you can't see, fits your argument perfectly. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Stop titling at them windmills quijote, you took my position completely out of context. I never said don't look out because the sky is big as a generality. I said your VFR rule following friends landing all at the same time at the panckake breakfast are factually bigger culprits to the midair collision Boogeyman Cirrus even made an entire airplane around of, than the strawman IMC pirate being highlighted in this thread. In the context of the IMC pirate the mid air statistics do in fact bear out that the sky is in fact big. Which is why i told the OP not to worry about it, and I stand by that position.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Stop titling at them windmills quijote, you took my position completely out of context. I never said don't look out because the sky is big as a generality. I said your VFR rule following friends landing all at the same time at the panckake breakfast are factually bigger culprits to the midair collision Boogeyman Cirrus even made an entire airplane around of, than the strawman IMC pirate being highlighted in this thread. In the context of the IMC pirate the mid air statistics do in fact bear out that the sky is in fact big. Which is why i told the OP not to worry about it, and I stand by that position.
Click to expand...

Statistics don't bear that out at all, they bear out that traffic in IMC is relatively safe because airspace is strictly controlled and surveilled specifically to avoid collisions, it is surveilled because the big sky theory is an utter failure as an avoidance technique for mid airs. Take away that surveillance and the statistics would be much worse. Your theory that it isn't much worse partially or fully due to "big sky" is fallacious. You should stop saying it because more people than I would have ever believed think that it is a big sky out there and they don't have to be concerned about mid airs, they need to be educated.

In general, the OP should not be worried about the IMC scofflaw, but he flies out of the same airport and if he is flying at the same time as that guy in IMC he should be very concerned, because his odds of an issue are many times more than someone flying in an area where everyone is following the rules.
 
I have dealt flying in the same area as folks that do not have a certificate or medical. Most have survived.

Since we are on the subject......what is this license thingy you all talk about..??? ;)
 
I remember coming out of the clouds IFR at about 800' and finding someone in the pattern scud running. A bit intense, but we avoided trading aluminum.
 
hindsight2020 said:
This is simply not true. Again, the mid air collisions far and wide gravitate to the severe VFR pancake fly-in saturday morning crowd all wanting to land in the same airport, as opposed to the the boogeyman of IMC pirates taking you out while IMC. GA's darling sausage fest, Oshkosh, and similar venues have more blood in their hands than IMC pirates ever did on this account. Those are rule-followers killing each other with great impunity btw. I recognize it feels good to admonish the scofflaws, but we're inventing a narrative to support our indignation. As for the rest of your point, I have no quarrel with the notion of remaining vigilant in the see and avoid business. That's frankly a pointless statement it's so universally agreeable.
Click to expand...
hindsight2020 said:
Stop titling at them windmills quijote, you took my position completely out of context. I never said don't look out because the sky is big as a generality. I said your VFR rule following friends landing all at the same time at the panckake breakfast are factually bigger culprits to the midair collision Boogeyman Cirrus even made an entire airplane around of, than the strawman IMC pirate being highlighted in this thread. In the context of the IMC pirate the mid air statistics do in fact bear out that the sky is in fact big. Which is why i told the OP not to worry about it, and I stand by that position.
Click to expand...
I'm not understanding your point I'm reading your statements as:
- Is it merely that there are things that are statistically more likely to happen than a mid-air with an IMC scofflaw?
- It's OK to be an IMC scofflaw because one is unlikely to collide with someone?
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top