So why is it...

Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
...that NO ONE does on-field installations at Oshkosh?

I'm in the market for a new prop this year. Why doesn't Hartzell (for example) have some A&P on commission who would come out to the North 40 and install the stupid thing right then and there?

I bet they would sell a LOT of props.

As a parallel, this is the sort of thing that makes attending a motorcycle rally fun. One year I had my ride pin-striped and a cruise control installed at the Americade Rally in New York state. This made the trip totally worth it, and truly improved my motorcycle.

Does EAA restrict this sort of thing, or has no one thought of doing it?
 
Cost, logistics, potential complications and regulatory constraints come to mind as pretty good reasons. Motorcyle vendors don't have the same constraints.

Jay Honeck said:
...that NO ONE does on-field installations at Oshkosh?

I'm in the market for a new prop this year. Why doesn't Hartzell (for example) have some A&P on commission who would come out to the North 40 and install the stupid thing right then and there?

I bet they would sell a LOT of props.

As a parallel, this is the sort of thing that makes attending a motorcycle rally fun. One year I had my ride pin-striped and a cruise control installed at the Americade Rally in New York state. This made the trip totally worth it, and truly improved my motorcycle.

Does EAA restrict this sort of thing, or has no one thought of doing it?
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wabower said:
Cost, logistics, potential complications and regulatory constraints come to mind as pretty good reasons. Motorcyle vendors don't have the same constraints.
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What regulatory constraints ?

Why would it cost any more than any other airport? other than the A&Ps ride up and housing.

" potential complications " said like we don't have complications any where else.
 
wabower said:
Cost, logistics, potential complications and regulatory constraints come to mind as pretty good reasons. Motorcyle vendors don't have the same constraints.
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Down here in the land of a million airports (but no FBOs), we have lots of A&Ps working out of their truck.

How would this be any different? Install the prop, sign it off, away you go!
 
Who's going to haul them to OSH? Which models? Where are they going to work? On the tiedowns? How long has the EAA been sponsoring the show? If it worked, don't you think that somebody wouldn't be doing it by now? What happens if the mechanic finds a problem (like a cracked cylinder) when he removes the prop? Should they sell those too?

Jay Honeck said:
Down here in the land of a million airports (but no FBOs), we have lots of A&Ps working out of their truck.

How would this be any different? Install the prop, sign it off, away you go!
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Have you ever tried to do business in Wisconsin?

If you think it's such a good idea, why don't you and Jay just do it?

If the guy has a problem on the way home, where does he go? Back to OSH? Back home? To the mechanic's shop in Ft. Wayne, IN or wherever the hell he lives?

I think it's a horrible idea and that the risk-rewards are all out of whack and wouldn't do it a bet.

Tom-D said:
What regulatory constraints ?

Why would it cost any more than any other airport? other than the A&Ps ride up and housing.

" potential complications " said like we don't have complications any where else.
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Now, Wayne, tell us your true opinion...
 
wabower said:
Who's going to haul them to OSH? Which models? Where are they going to work? On the tiedowns? How long has the EAA been sponsoring the show? If it worked, don't you think that somebody wouldn't be doing it by now? What happens if the mechanic finds a problem (like a cracked cylinder) when he removes the prop? Should they sell those too?
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Well, Hartzell brings a pretty freaking big semi-truck to OSH every year. I would think they could probably have one of every prop they make on that truck, times two.

And the show is a week long. If I went in there on Sunday, they could have one over-nighted to the field by Monday. Any enterprising A&P could have it installed in a couple of hours.

Unless EAA restricts this somehow, (and they may, for liability reasons) it seems the only thing stopping someone like Hartzell from doing this is a lack of entrepreneurial inspiration.

BTW: If they find a cracked cylinder, they've done you a favor, and it's time to get yourself towed to Basler...
 
Have you ever tried to do business in Wisconsin?
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Yep, from '88 - '94, I owned my own business in Kenosha.

If you think it's such a good idea, why don't you and Jay just do it?
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Well, I just haven't gotten 'round to buying Hartzell yet. Give me time, and I might.

If the guy has a problem on the way home, where does he go? Back to OSH? Back home? To the mechanic's shop in Ft. Wayne, IN or wherever the hell he lives?
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Well that's just silly talk. If you have a problem after ANY mechanic works on your plane, what do you do?

I'm not talking about having Billy Bob's other brother Darryl installing these things -- I'm talking about a real, certified A&P mechanic, working on contract with (for example) Hartzell.

I think it's a horrible idea and that the risk-rewards are all out of whack and wouldn't do it a bet.
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Again, unless EAA is restricting this sort of on-field activity (and they may be), it seems the only thing stopping Hartzell (again, as an example) from doing something like this is a lack of entrepreneurial drive.

I bet they would sell a hundred props at OSH. What's their profit margin on one of their 3-blade Top Props? $2k?

Not a bad nut for a week's worth of work.
 
I can't imagine them making money at it; they would have to transport a huge inventory, plus tools, be ready to do paperwork for the install, get set up to take credit cards, probably need a hangar as it is either hot as blazes or rainy...then if there is any kind of incident on the way out, they are going to hold their breath til the customer says "I just had Hartzell install a prop here", to a crowd of 1.5 million.....even though you groundlooped on takeoff.
No, they are making the best return by selling the way they do now and have little to gain by setting up shop at Osh, imo. Although it would be cool - I see why they don't.
 
The real issue is probably if EAA allowed Hartzell to do it, they'd have to allow everyone else, and there just ain't enough hangar space to get it all done. :)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yep, from '88 - '94, I owned my own business in Kenosha.



Well, I just haven't gotten 'round to buying Hartzell yet. Give me time, and I might.



Well that's just silly talk. If you have a problem after ANY mechanic works on your plane, what do you do?

Well if it's so silly, where are you going with the plane and your family all your dirty clothes and show junk if it starts leaking oil when you land for fuel on Sunday afternoon in Sherman, TX?

I'm not talking about having Billy Bob's other brother Darryl installing these things -- I'm talking about a real, certified A&P mechanic, working on contract with (for example) Hartzell.

Does Hartzell offer installation as part of their services? I've always thought they just sold props to dealers and owners.


Again, unless EAA is restricting this sort of on-field activity (and they may be), it seems the only thing stopping Hartzell (again, as an example) from doing something like this is a lack of entrepreneurial drive.

I bet they would sell a hundred props at OSH. What's their profit margin on one of their 3-blade Top Props? $2k?

Not a bad nut for a week's worth of work.
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You want white or wheat?
 
denverpilot said:
The real issue is probably if EAA allowed Hartzell to do it, they'd have to allow everyone else, and there just ain't enough hangar space to get it all done. :)
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Who needs a hangar to install a prop?

A prop installation, in the hands of an expert A&P, is a 30-minute job, with a helper (that could be YOU), start to finish, requiring just three tools. It could be done at your airplane, anywhere on the grounds. All the A&P really needs is a pickup truck, and your parking spot row/number.

As for handling credit cards, as someone else questioned, our "roving A&P" at my home field down here in Texas takes 'em. They make an app for my Droid to handle them via a cellular connection now.

As for whether Hartzell installs props, as someone else mentioned, nope -- but the installer/A&P does. He could have an "exclusive contract" with Hartzell for the show.

With 12,000 aircraft attending, I wonder how many would buy props at OSH? I sure would. If they did it every year, and priced 'em right, guys would time their prop replacement for OSH. Soon, they'd be doing 200 a year.

Dang. I wonder how much they want for Hartzell Corp? :D
 
I do know that Basler does repair work that week. The seal on my nose strut blew out taxiing thru the grass and I arranged to take it over to their big hanger over by the parking lot of military vehicles along side 36. I was very surprised at the cost. It was only 180 to fix it and considering it was Osh week I had set myself up for a much bigger bill.
 
Buy a prop and find an A&P. Couple years ago my turn and bank went caplooey. The A&P who was staying across the way came and yanked it out of my panel so I could take it back to the manufacturer. Osh is just crawling with A&Ps. Ask around.
 
Jay Honeck said:
...that NO ONE does on-field installations at Oshkosh?

I'm in the market for a new prop this year. Why doesn't Hartzell (for example) have some A&P on commission who would come out to the North 40 and install the stupid thing right then and there?

I bet they would sell a LOT of props.
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How much are you willing to bet?

I bet Hartzell (for example) believes the costs of shipping the amount of inventory, personnel, and equipment to OSH that would be necessary to make this offer exceeds the potential profit.

I'll be there an the 26th. Let's decide on the amount of the wager and agree on a time to meet at the Hartzell (for example) booth.
 
I just spoke to the maintenance group at Basler and asked him about installing the Cessna seat restraining unit while I'm out at Osh. He said they could not schedule routine work that week because they get real busy with emergency repairs. I did plant the bug in his ear that mayby they should look at extra staffing for that week and try to bring in some more work with things that can't be done at home. That is my problem, my home repair shop can't do the work to install the seat restraint and it's a pain to try to get the plane to another airport and leave it there for the several days it needs. I would be willing to pay a premium above and beyond what Cessna pays for the work just to have it done that week while the plane is there anyway.
 
Who knows? Times are tough, the board might be ready to trade it for for a tourist hotel and some crew cars. But then again, Tailwind (Hartzell's parent) just added Kelly Aerospace to their stable and would probably want to include it in the package. Maybe they would take some aviation-themed furniture and decorations for that piece.:)

Jay Honeck said:
Dang. I wonder how much they want for Hartzell Corp? :D
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wsuffa said:
Aside from that, I'd bet the airfield has restrictions on maintenance services (most do, sometimes it's "protectionist"), and I am pretty certian that the state & city would want business licenses to make sure they get their cut.
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Yup, now we're getting to the crux of the problem, methinks.

If OSH is like IOW, an A&P couldn't legally take a dump without permission from the city drones. They wanted their pound of flesh.

*sigh* I should have figured that bureaucrats would be at the bottom of this clogged toilet. They always are... :mad:
 
jtheune said:
I just spoke to the maintenance group at Basler and asked him about installing the Cessna seat restraining unit while I'm out at Osh. He said they could not schedule routine work that week because they get real busy with emergency repairs. I did plant the bug in his ear that mayby they should look at extra staffing for that week and try to bring in some more work with things that can't be done at home. That is my problem, my home repair shop can't do the work to install the seat restraint and it's a pain to try to get the plane to another airport and leave it there for the several days it needs. I would be willing to pay a premium above and beyond what Cessna pays for the work just to have it done that week while the plane is there anyway.
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Exactly!

This just seems like a huge, money-making machine for...somebody.

Think of it: You've got 12,000 airplanes, parked wingtip-to-wingtip. You've got 600,000 attendees, most with full wallets.

The vendors are all there, selling stuff that needs to be installed. Why is NO ONE in the A&P world trying to empty those wallets?

I know aviation doesn't always attract the best business-people (God knows I've seen dozens of them fail, over the years, sometimes for the silliest reasons.) -- but c'mon -- this isn't opportunity knocking. This is opportunity screaming and kicking, with sirens blaring!
 
roncachamp said:
How much are you willing to bet?

I bet Hartzell (for example) believes the costs of shipping the amount of inventory, personnel, and equipment to OSH that would be necessary to make this offer exceeds the potential profit.

I'll be there an the 26th. Let's decide on the amount of the wager and agree on a time to meet at the Hartzell (for example) booth.
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That's an un-provable scenario, sadly.

The telling would not be in what the Hartzell reps tell us they THINK might work -- after all, what I'm talking about doing would be a lot of work for them, and most employees are not in favor of doing more work -- the telling would be in trying it.

In order for this bet to function, Hartzell would have to actually try doing it for a couple of Airventures. The mere thought of an old-line aviation company trying something new like this is (pathetically, sadly) laughable.

"We tried that back in aught-nine -- the FIRST aught-nine -- and it didn't work!" :rolleyes:
 
Jay Honeck said:
Yup, now we're getting to the crux of the problem, methinks.

If OSH is like IOW, an A&P couldn't legally take a dump without permission from the city drones. They wanted their pound of flesh.

*sigh* I should have figured that bureaucrats would be at the bottom of this clogged toilet. They always are... :mad:
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I think this may cover it:

No person shall utilize the Airport as a base or point of operation for the purposes
of engaging in commercial operations of any nature without securing an
appropriate agreement for such activities from the County of Winnebago and
paying the rates and charges prescribed for such use. A person not authorized, or
one in default under a tenancy agreement, shall not serve or otherwise
accommodate the public or carry on any commercial activities on the Airport.
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http://www.wittmanairport.com/pdf/rates.pdf
 
No person shall utilize the Airport as a base or point of operation for the purposes
of engaging in commercial operations of any nature without securing an
appropriate agreement for such activities from the County of Winnebago and
paying the rates and charges prescribed for such use. A person not authorized, or
one in default under a tenancy agreement, shall not serve or otherwise
accommodate the public or carry on any commercial activities on the Airport.
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Well, that begs the question: How hard is it to get permission from the County?

I suspect we've just run headlong into the wall that others have hit over the years...
 
I spend a high percentage of most work-days in a MX shop. I wouldn't consider for a second having a prop installed at OSH, nor would I recommend it to the clients of my purchaser representation practice over the past 19 years. In fact, I would tell them it would be a very poor decision on their part, based on many factors, not the least of which is the number of things that I've seen go wrong in such seemingly simple processes.

For openers, I would remind them that any work done in WI is subject to sales tax, while work done in TX can be totally exempt if done properly.

Then I would tell them that if If my airplane is down for an unforeseen problem, I want it to be in a MX shop that is convenient to my home, and not sitting in the grass on the north 40 at OSH with a plastic tarp over the cowling.
 
wabower said:
Have you ever tried to do business in Wisconsin?

If you think it's such a good idea, why don't you and Jay just do it?

If the guy has a problem on the way home, where does he go? Back to OSH? Back home? To the mechanic's shop in Ft. Wayne, IN or wherever the hell he lives?

I think it's a horrible idea and that the risk-rewards are all out of whack and wouldn't do it a bet.
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you talk about business restraints and then give personnel opinions,WTFUWT?
 
I guess I don't get it, maybe because I've never been to OSH. What is the Hartzell display like? Do they have all these props exhibited and while you are walking by you say to yourself, "Ah ha! I want that one! Today." I don't picture props as being a spur-of-the-moment purchase like that. What would you save by having a prop installed there? Shipping?
 
Everskyward said:
I guess I don't get it, maybe because I've never been to OSH. What is the Hartzell display like? Do they have all these props exhibited and while you are walking by you say to yourself, "Ah ha! I want that one! Today." I don't picture props as being a spur-of-the-moment purchase like that. What would you save by having a prop installed there? Shipping?
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In theory, shipping, yes. And, of course, nearly every vendor has an "Oshkosh Special" price. Hartzell (and remember -- they are just an example; you could plug in McCauley, or Wag-Aero, or Dawley Aviation, if you wanted) would be no different.

Heck, for all I know, Hartzell already HAS an "OSH Special" price? I'll let you know in a couple of weeks! :D

For years, I have made ALL of my aviation purchases at OSH. Every pair of headphones, every radio, every seat belt harness -- in short, everything possible -- has been purchased at the show. Why? Price, and the ability to "play before you pay".

I like to see, feel, and play with whatever I am considering buying BEFORE I buy it. One of the worst downsides of owning a plane, IMHO, is that there are so few "stores" where you can go to see what you're purchasing in advance. With fewer and fewer people flying, most purchases are now done on-line, or through a catalog.

With regard to a prop, to have a factory rep there actually providing me with EXACTLY what I need, and expert service (rather than dealing with some prop shop 500 miles away, whose only connection to you is a credit card number and a mailing address) would be priceless. The installation part is pretty simple, and could be done by any competent A&P.

Here's why I used Hartzell in my example: Right now I am debating the advantages of a 3- versus a 2-blade prop for Atlas. I am looking forward to speaking with the Hartzell and McCauley folks at OSH, and picking their brains -- but no matter what they recommend, I will STILL have go home and go through all the crap of (a) finding a prop shop, (b) finding an A&P to install it, (c) having it shipped to Texas, etc. That's a big hassle, and I may (or may not) get around to doing it any time soon.

If I knew that Hartzell was there, on the field in OSH, I could have it done next week, wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, while I was at the show. And I don't think I'm alone.

It's all about convenience and excellent customer service -- two concepts that I have rarely seen in aviation, which (IMHO) is one HUGE reason GA is dying.
 
I spend a high percentage of most work-days in a MX shop.
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Sorry, what's a "MX shop"?

I wouldn't consider for a second having a prop installed at OSH, nor would I recommend it to the clients of my purchaser representation practice over the past 19 years. In fact, I would tell them it would be a very poor decision on their part, based on many factors, not the least of which is the number of things that I've seen go wrong in such seemingly simple processes.
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Are you referring to problems during installation? Something like twisting off a bolt, or something?

For openers, I would remind them that any work done in WI is subject to sales tax, while work done in TX can be totally exempt if done properly.
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That's a good point -- but (I would think this would be) more than offset by no shipping charges. Shipping a prop to Texas ain't cheap.

Then I would tell them that if If my airplane is down for an unforeseen problem, I want it to be in a MX shop that is convenient to my home, and not sitting in the grass on the north 40 at OSH with a plastic tarp over the cowling.
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Well, remember -- Oshkosh isn't Mustang Island. Between Basler and Orion, you've got two large and competent repair shops on the field. If the A&P who was installing the prop (for example) found (for example) a failed baffle in your exhaust system, he would (a) be doing you a huge favor, preventing you from trying to fly out of OSH with a potentially disastrous problem, and (b) he would be able to have Basler tow it to their shop for further work.

What you're saying is potentially true anywhere you have work done on your plane. Any shop, anywhere, can find something else wrong.
 
If I were Hartzell's CEO, my questions to my sales guy who brought this half-ass idea to the meeting would be:

1. What's the budget for this boondoggle?

2. How many people buy props as impulse items when they don't need them?

3. How many more props will we sell this year if we spend the money to sponsor this wacko deal at OSH? Wouldn't the people who need props buy them anyway?

4. How many customers who bought props last year wanted to feel them before they bought one?

Jay Honeck said:
In theory, shipping, yes. And, of course, nearly every vendor has an "Oshkosh Special" price. Hartzell (and remember -- they are just an example; you could plug in McCauley, or Wag-Aero, or Dawley Aviation, if you wanted) would be no different.

Heck, for all I know, Hartzell already HAS an "OSH Special" price? I'll let you know in a couple of weeks! :D

For years, I have made ALL of my aviation purchases at OSH. Every pair of headphones, every radio, every seat belt harness -- in short, everything possible -- has been purchased at the show. Why? Price, and the ability to "play before you pay".

I like to see, feel, and play with whatever I am considering buying BEFORE I buy it. One of the worst downsides of owning a plane, IMHO, is that there are so few "stores" where you can go to see what you're purchasing in advance. With fewer and fewer people flying, most purchases are now done on-line, or through a catalog.

With regard to a prop, to have a factory rep there actually providing me with EXACTLY what I need, and expert service (rather than dealing with some prop shop 500 miles away, whose only connection to you is a credit card number and a mailing address) would be priceless. The installation part is pretty simple, and could be done by any competent A&P.

Here's why I used Hartzell in my example: Right now I am debating the advantages of a 3- versus a 2-blade prop for Atlas. I am looking forward to speaking with the Hartzell and McCauley folks at OSH, and picking their brains -- but no matter what they recommend, I will STILL have go home and go through all the crap of (a) finding a prop shop, (b) finding an A&P to install it, (c) having it shipped to Texas, etc. That's a big hassle, and I may (or may not) get around to doing it any time soon.

If I knew that Hartzell was there, on the field in OSH, I could have it done next week, wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, while I was at the show. And I don't think I'm alone.

It's all about convenience and excellent customer service -- two concepts that I have rarely seen in aviation, which (IMHO) is one HUGE reason GA is dying.
Click to expand...
 
Jay Honeck said:
...that NO ONE does on-field installations at Oshkosh?

Does EAA restrict this sort of thing, or has no one thought of doing it?
Click to expand...

Some people do. ;-)

I've helped change out a cylinder in the campgrounds. I carry a reasonable set of tools in the RV, but the guy did have to find a vendor to loan the cylinder base nut wrenches.

Of course, my services were free, and the owner didn't even charge me for breaking one of my screwdrivers.
 
kyleb said:
Some people do. ;-)

I've helped change out a cylinder in the campgrounds. I carry a reasonable set of tools in the RV, but the guy did have to find a vendor to loan the cylinder base nut wrenches.

Of course, my services were free, and the owner didn't even charge me for breaking one of my screwdrivers.
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I have a 12 pack in the fridge just for you anytime you want to come wrench on my (future) plane. :wink2:
 
kyleb said:
Some people do. ;-)

I've helped change out a cylinder in the campgrounds. I carry a reasonable set of tools in the RV, but the guy did have to find a vendor to loan the cylinder base nut wrenches.

Of course, my services were free, and the owner didn't even charge me for breaking one of my screwdrivers.
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No good deed ever goes unpunished, Kyle. Ask me about the shattered windshield on my courtesy car sometime...
 
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