Snippy ATC

Sounds like your controller was having a bad day and took it out on you. They're human, it happens.

I once had a controller at Detroit approach who was so upset with me that he tried to set me up for a tongue lashing to get even. My sin was to not announce that I was a student pilot. I had more hours than a lot of licensed PPs at that point and was sick of always saying those two words, so I usually omitted them. This time I was on my way to PTK where I had a blanket sign off, and was getting flight following from Detroit. The exchange went like this:

Approach: "Cessna 9RX, contact Pontiac Tower on 120.5 and stay on that beacon code."

Me: "9RX request clarification: what is a beacon code please?"

"Cessna 9RX, you wouldn't happen to be a student pilot, would you?"

"Yes, sir."

"Well, student pilot, beacon code and squawk code are the same thing. You should have learned that in ground school. So Cessna 9RX, contact Pontiac Tower on 120.5 and stay on your assigned squawk code."

"Contact Pontiac Tower, 120.5 and keep the squawk, 9RX."

A second later, I called up the tower:

"Pontiac Tower, Skyhawk 739RX inbound, landing with Echo."

Tower: "Cessna 739RX, make straight in 27L and report 2 miles out. And Cessna 739RX, you're on an unauthorized squawk code, squawk 1200 IMMEDIATELY!"

Me: "Squawking VFR".

When the frequency was less busy I explained that I had been told by Detroit Approach to keep the squawk. The tower controller answered that during the handoff, approach had told him to expect "a student pilot who would be squawking 1200". I explained what had transpired between me and Detroit and the tower guy apologized and admitted that I'd done exactly what I was supposed to do.

When I told my CFI about this, he was livid. He said that "beacon code" was an internal ATC term and the approach guy had no business using it in an on air communication with a pilot. I'm not sure if that's true, but (a) I'm pretty sure it's in the AIM (though not in the P/CG) and (b) I've heard ATC use it enough times over the years since that if I was a CFI, I sure wouldn't let a student solo in busy airspace without making sure she knew what the phrase meant.
 
While we're on the subject of snippy ATC, we shouldn't forget the controller in the Phoenix area who got so upset with a pilot last year that he ordered her to land. :rolleyes:
 
I lost brakes once when I landed and ATC started giving me lip about making a plane behind me go around. I asked him if he wanted to come down and figure out how to get it stopped.
 
I have noticed that some -- many? -- pilots are nervous when talking to ATC. Some even actively avoid them, for fear of making a mistake, or running into a "snippy" controller.

Been there, done that myself, when I was a new pilot.

This problem is 100% solved, when you realize and understand two things:

1. Air Traffic Controllers are YOUR employees. YOU pay every dime they receive.

2. Without air traffic -- YOU -- these employees would be unemployed.

Once you get this relationship straight, interacting with them becomes no different than talking to any of your other employees -- and the jitters go away.
 
I had a controller at IAD get snippy with me to the point of being unsafe. I learned from the owner of the (IAD-based) club I was renting from that you just note the time and the frequency (quietly) and then the next business day you talk to the sup/QA person (depending on the facility). I got a nice apology out of ATC.

They had brought me in close behind a 747 so I was keeping my glidepath above his. The controller reamed me for landing long (I still made the first turn off but he decided prematurely to send the guy he brought in behind me too close to go around).
 
Jay Honeck said:
I have noticed that some -- many? -- pilots are nervous when talking to ATC. Some even actively avoid them, for fear of making a mistake, or running into a "snippy" controller.

Been there, done that myself, when I was a new pilot.

This problem is 100% solved, when you realize and understand two things:

1. Air Traffic Controllers are YOUR employees. YOU pay every dime they receive.

2. Without air traffic -- YOU -- these employees would be unemployed.

Once you get this relationship straight, interacting with them becomes no different than talking to any of your other employees -- and the jitters go away.
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I agree with your analogies but I also look at it differently.

In some ways ATC is more like a business and we are their customers, we are asking a service from them, and to get that service we need to provide them with a description of what we want. To me it is more like going to McDonald's and using the drive up window. If the girl at the drive up is snippy with me, I am not going to antagonize the situation because I do not want her to spit in my food. I may complain to her boss or McDonald's corporate if it is really bad, but otherwise I may just chock it up to miscommunication or a bad day. Certainly, if I am having a bad day I am not going to take it out on her(back to extra enzymes in my food). Now, I can go to Burger King, or another McDonald's as well, but if they are the only one in town well then I am stuck if I want a fast food hamburger. ATC is the only one in town, so you have no choice. If they are being snippy and it is real bothersome complain, maybe the controller does not realize how they are coming off and it could be educational to them. We often see our actions very differently than the video and audio clips show us. Have you ever listened to yourself on ATClive. I have a few times, and sometimes when I thought I was quite good I was quite bad, and sometimes when I thought I was quite bad it was not as bad as I thought. In any case, it has taught me a lot about how I personally use the radios, and has allowed me to make changes for the better. Controllers and pilots make mistakes(after all we are human), expect it and realize the that the chances of the mistakes causing a serious problem are fairly small, and are usually correctable, and identified before they become a problem . As long as I have accepted that fact of radio communication it has taken a lot of the fear out of it.
 
douglas393 said:
I agree with your analogies but I also look at it differently.
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In general I agree with your approach (pun!, well sorta).

ATC's job is to provide traffic separation services. They work with us and we depend on them to be professional. The happy surprise is that they are generally helpful as well as professional.

Early on in my flying I listened to an airline pilot smarting off to a controller. It impressed me that the controller remained very professional in the interaction and I decided that was the example to follow. I'll goof around on CTAF and I'll chat with a controller when the frequency is quiet and they seem talkative. Other than that it's just another day at work and nobody, pilot or controller, is perfect.
 
I had a controller just today get on my case for being 50 ft high while VFR. It was kinda bumpy in spots under the clouds, and he asked me to "say altutde." I had been bumped a little up, so my altimeter was right between 2500 and 2600, more towards 2500 if anything, which is what I told him. He came back with "Huh, altitude indicates 2600." Uhh...okay...
 
jpower said:
I had a controller just today get on my case for being 50 ft high while VFR. It was kinda bumpy in spots under the clouds, and he asked me to "say altutde." I had been bumped a little up, so my altimeter was right between 2500 and 2600, more towards 2500 if anything, which is what I told him. He came back with "Huh, altitude indicates 2600." Uhh...okay...
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Most encoders flip at the halfway point, don't they?
 
If this bothers a controller , then there is nothing you can do about it. Stuff changes all the time.
We all get last minute runway changes, approach changes etc and we are expected to deal with it.

True professionals will deal with whatever is needed in a professional manner, no matter what side of the mic they are on.
 
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jpower said:
I had a controller just today get on my case for being 50 ft high while VFR. It was kinda bumpy in spots under the clouds, and he asked me to "say altutde." I had been bumped a little up, so my altimeter was right between 2500 and 2600, more towards 2500 if anything, which is what I told him. He came back with "Huh, altitude indicates 2600." Uhh...okay...
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Is it possible they were just verifying your altitude? Whenever I enter the system I am asked to provide my altitude if I didn't on initial callup. What was the circumstance around this?
 
denverpilot said:
Most encoders flip at the halfway point, don't they?
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That's what I always figured, but I don't know for sure. It could also have been an issue with the altimeter setting. The altimeter he gave me was maybe 20 miles away, and if we're dealing in +/- 20 ft (over/under the threshold), it seems like that could be it.

ChrisK said:
Is it possible they were just verifying your altitude? Whenever I enter the system I am asked to provide my altitude if I didn't on initial callup. What was the circumstance around this?
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It's possible, but I had been on flight following with him for a few minutes. He came back with "radar contact blah blah" about 5 minutes before. The question itself was out of the blue.

I'm not miffed by it or anything. It's just a little weird that as a VFR flight he would care that my altitude was +/- 100 ft. Although I usually try to give them a heads up first, I've been +/- a few hundred for cloud avoidance and they've never cared to say anything.
 
I give my altitude to the nearest hundred feet. More often than not when I am handed off to a different controller, the barometric setting changes anyhow, and so my altitude is going to change anyhow. Once or twice it changed by 50 feet.
 
So you came into KSTS at the busiest time of the year -- Bohemian Grove for the rich and famous. Did you happen to notice the entire ramp was covered in corporate Jets.
It is a wonder you got in at all -- all the little planes have been moved off to the hinterland so the big boys toys have spots to park.

It is an annual activity that is a lot like Christmas for the FBOs - they make the rent and pay the bills for the year off the few weeks the country's elite come to play.
The Jet A and wine flows like a river for these few weeks -- thank goodness.
Oh and we are training new Tower folks so I am sure the stress level was up a bit. Try us again sometime - good food at the restaurant and Sonoma Jet Center has a good staff.

Don't forget to walk off your sushi or burger by taking a tour of the air museum while you are here as well.

No personal interest in the business end on my part, just happen to be lucky to be based here.

Sorry you had a rough patch with the tower -- not a common thing, they like us, we are the normal day's business.
Patrick
 
jpower said:
I had a controller just today get on my case for being 50 ft high while VFR. It was kinda bumpy in spots under the clouds, and he asked me to "say altutde." I had been bumped a little up, so my altimeter was right between 2500 and 2600, more towards 2500 if anything, which is what I told him. He came back with "Huh, altitude indicates 2600." Uhh...okay...
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Not sure why the controller would even care. Your Mode C is valid if it's less than 300 ft of reported. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of Mode C readouts on approach that were 100-200 ft off. Never once got on the pilots for reporting something different.
 
Most controllers I've dealt with are very professional and accommodating. You get the occasional display of attitude, but it's reasonably rare.
 
Sometimes they have to put up with a lot. I've heard a lot of extremely patient controllers dealing with idiot pilots. I can forgive a "If you're going to fly in the class C you need to listen up" remark when a pilot kept missing his calls. On the other hand ripping into a pilot is NEVER called for over the air. If he wants to do that either violate the guy or give him a number to call so you can chew him out while both of you are on the ground or just take a deep breath and save it for venting in the break room.
 
One time when I was moving towards a Commercial rating I flew to Winston-Salem (KINT) to do 5 night landings at a towered airport. I did the first landing and taxied clear of the runway, then called the tower (only one guy working Tower and Ground) and told him I would like to taxi back for multiple other takeoffs and landings. I got the "why didn't you tell me that before?" bit. Honestly, I don't know how it would have changed his evening in the least, except maybe he would have had a bathroom break before my first landing if he had known or something. It was only him and me on the frequency the whole time I was flying there that night.

Some people are just grouchy.

Wells
 
flyingron said:
Sometimes they have to put up with a lot. I've heard a lot of extremely patient controllers dealing with idiot pilots. I can forgive a "If you're going to fly in the class C you need to listen up" remark when a pilot kept missing his calls. On the other hand ripping into a pilot is NEVER called for over the air. If he wants to do that either violate the guy or give him a number to call so you can chew him out while both of you are on the ground or just take a deep breath and save it for venting in the break room.
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Nor is a pilot ripping into another pilot on the air ever called for either, but that happens too.
 
I find there are two types of controllers, the can't be bothered (rare) and the human. The can't be bothered are typically stuck in a small tower somewhere rounding out a sad career and act like small town cops.

As to the rest of us. I have a HUGE tolerance for mistakes. I clear about 30 class Bravo busters a year into my airspace. I average two bravo clearances a year to IFR pilots who insist that their IFR flight plan does not negate airspace clearance requirements. I'm normally polite, but in the odd occurrence that you're the 20th pilot (or whatever) to do some minor thing wrong (or one major thing) in one day, at some point I will get "snippy".

The attitude in those situations is normally a display of control. Sometimes it takes the jerk voice to reign things in.
 
Approach_controller said:
The attitude in those situations is normally a display of control. Sometimes it takes the jerk voice to reign things in.
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More often than not the "Jerk" voice just escalates bad feelings on both sides to the point of often jeopardizing aviation safety. I can't control the idiot moves of my flying bretheren, but I expect the controllers to be professional.
 
flyingron said:
More often than not the "Jerk" voice just escalates bad feelings on both sides to the point of often jeopardizing aviation safety. I can't control the idiot moves of my flying bretheren, but I expect the controllers to be professional.
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Let me be clear. What I call the jerk voice is very stern, but not insulting and its use depends entirely on what is asked of the pilot and equipment flown. If a VFR Skyhawk pilot doesn't self declare as a student or new pilot and proceeds to need five patient radio calls to answer, or flies over the heart of the final in my bravo without a clearance, I become a jerk. If a King Air pilot can't figure out how to fly a standard STAR or DP, this is a lack of professionalism on their end.

I'd be willing to wager me being stern and short with a pilot is less of a risk to aviation safety than a VFR pilot showing a complete lack of situational awareness are causing RA's left and right on final or a professional pilot unable to cope with basic IFR procedures.

Its pretty difficult to keep total composure when someone is trying to hit everyone on your scope. Make a tired long winded call up with liberal ums and uhhhs as I watch two aircraft wired for one another with alarms going off while the pilot jams the freq and I can't issue a safety alert. Yeah I'll get snippy. Its not the call up pilots fault, but then again I'm not customer service trying to sign you into another year of service.

I understand what you're getting at. I've been a pilot for 13 years. When someone is being snippy for the sake of they can, that's not right. It still happens to everyone, be they ATC, private pilots or commercial. I've seen controllers, private pilots and commercial pilots all act like children.
 
Thanks for sharing your insights. It's always good to get the perspective from the other side of the mike.

I've always been proud of myself for one flight where I was transitioning SFO's class B surface area, because I had the presence of mind to let up on the push-to-talk switch after the first "uh." :)
 
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jpower said:
Is that at LNS? I've heard there's someone who fits that description up there.
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Haha...you are talking about Amy. I've taken two tower tours there. First time was as a student with my flight instructor. I asked her face to face why she liked to rip pilots on the air for mistakes. She blushed and seemed embarrassed by it. We are all human. She's actually a very nice person if you ever get a chance to talk to her.

My flight instructor thought it was funny as hell that was my first question for her...broke the ice I suppose.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2
 
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