Snippy ATC

joycem137

joycem137

Pre-takeoff checklist
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199
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Novi, MI
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Display name:
Robin
I went out on my first flight as a PP-ASEL on Tuesday, just up to KSTS and back, nothing spectacular. When I got near STS, I called in "Cessna Blahdeblah inbound for landing with Bravo." I wanted to do a touch-n-go, so when I reported downwind, I said, "Cessna Blahdeblah entering left downwind, and we'd like the option. After the option, we'd like a straight out departure." ATC came back and said, "It would have been nice to know that with your first call up..."

In my training, I've flown various places, and we've often gotten the option right off, or requested it while in the pattern, so I was a bit surprised at his irritated response. But I suppose it makes sense, and I'll certainly include that request in the future when I make my call-up.

Did I err or was ATC just in a bad mood or something?
 
Bad mood. Plans do change. However, as long as you are planning for the option, why not tell/request that to ATC?

-Skip
 
It can affect how they handle your inbound flight as regards other traffic and even runway selection so, yes, I would have let them know my intentions early on.
 
You made a routine request. ATC probably figured out you were new and he could get away with being rude. Don't worry about it. Next time just say "sorry about that" and move on.
 
Skip Miller said:
Bad mood. Plans do change. However, as long as you are planning for the option, why not tell/request that to ATC?

-Skip
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Oh, it totally makes sense to give them as much info ahead of time as possible. I just am not in the habit of asking for the option on the initial call up is all. :)
 
Rwsavory said:
You made a routine request. ATC probably figured out you were new and he could get away with being rude. Don't worry about it. Next time just say "sorry about that" and move on.
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That's basically what I said, "Sorry about that. I'll be sure to do that next time." and moved on.
 
I called in "Cessna Blahdeblah inbound for landing with Bravo.
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Are you guys saying this is when she should have stated the touch and go? Cessna BlahBlah X miles out with Bravo for a touch and go?

thanks!
 
joycem137 said:
Did I err or was ATC just in a bad mood or something?
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You erred very slightly.

You asked for a landing, and then later asked for the option.

Not enough to warrant the snippy remark, IMO. As was discussed in an earlier post, plans do change, and this is both expected and reasonable.

I hope the steak made up for it. :) STS has a good restaurant on the field.
 
signu127 said:
Are you guys saying this is when she should have stated the touch and go? Cessna BlahBlah X miles out with Bravo for a touch and go?

thanks!
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Yes, I would have stated my intention.
 
Oh, and as regards snippy, I just let it roll off my back.
 
MAKG1 said:
You erred very slightly.

You asked for a landing, and then later asked for the option.

Not enough to warrant the snippy remark, IMO. As was discussed in an earlier post, plans do change, and this is both expected and reasonable.

I hope the steak made up for it. :) STS has a good restaurant on the field.
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We didn't get dinner there. The marine layer was slowly coming in, and I didn't want to have my first flight as a PP-ASEL be a lesson in how (in)accurate TAFs can be for nearby airports. :) But the meal after we got back... That was nice. :)
 
joycem137 said:
When I got near STS, I called in "Cessna Blahdeblah inbound for landing with Bravo."
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I think this is the reason he got snippy, he was planning for a full-stop landing. No worries, they have a lot on their mind, especially at busy 'dromes like PAO. STS is probably quite busy as well.
Edit: I see someone beat me to it.:)
 
ATC can often be snippy depending on the controller. Rarely do I do a flight where I do not hear a controller be snippy to someone. Usually, its after the pilot they are being snippy to has misheard their directions a fourth time, but sometimes its just the personality of the controller. When I was in IFR training one of the tower personel at one of the fields we did ILS approaches was well known to have an attitude and eat children and student pilots for breakfast. I was lucky in that the few time I encountered her she was in a forgiving mood, but according to my CFII, a few other CFII's, and mt DPE she made more than a few students cry. Bottom line it was a learning experience, and that is what flying is all about.
 
My experience is different. The closest I got to "snippy" was when I was getting interference on the radio, and had to ask a NorCal controller to repeat his instruction four times. I couldn't blame him, really, under the circumstances.

I got told several times during my training that one of the controllers at Livermore was a real jerk. But I ended up doing quite a bit of landing practice there, and never experienced it once.

Occasionally, I get a chuckle from a controller. Like the Oakland Center controller who asked for a traffic report on I-80 while I was leaving Lake Tahoe on Labor Day. It was truly terrible and he knew it. I told him I was happy I was at 9000 feet. Then there was the lone PAO controller at 7:15 AM when I was practicing solo pattern, who started critiquing the landings (he was clearly bored). Or the departure instructions another time "Oh heck, there's no one here. Turn crosswind whenever you want to."
 
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From the (very) little I've learned, the option is something you should ask for when you actually need it. Otherwise, it's best to ask what you want, in this case a touch-and-go. If they are busy an option may require the most planning for Tower as they need to play for you to touch-and-go, land, or just plain coming to a stop on the runway. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here anyone as I'm just learning :)

While I don't plan to do it, I'm sure I'll annoy some controllers in my upcoming training life :)
 
ATC can go both ways in my experience. I completed about 2 hours practicing approaches yesterday and at the end had ATC thank me for "all of my hard work" /boggle. I think the guy had a bit too much happy juice =)
 
MAKG1 said:
My experience is different. The closest I got to "snippy" was when I was getting interference on the radio, and had to ask a NorCal controller to repeat his instruction four times. I couldn't blame him, really, under the circumstances.

I got told several times during my training that one of the controllers at Livermore was a real jerk. But I ended up doing quite a bit of landing practice there, and never experienced it once.

Occasionally, I get a chuckle from a controller. Like the Oakland Center controller who asked for a traffic report on I-80 while I was leaving Lake Tahoe on Labor Day. It was truly terrible and he knew it. I told him I was happy I was at 9000 feet. Then there was the lone PAO controller at 7:15 AM when I was practicing solo pattern, who started critiquing the landings (he was clearly bored). Or the departure instructions another time "Oh heck, there's no one here. Turn crosswind whenever you want to."
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My experiences have tended to be quite positive. I absolutely love the controllers over at KMOD for example. I've been over there a lot, with my CFI and solo, and they have always rolled out the red carpet for me.

"Cessna blahdeblah inbound for landing."

"Which runway would you like, ma'am?"

"Oh, I'll take 28L"

(at 10 miles out) "Number 1, cleared to land 28L, and what's your next destination after here?"

"Wow, thanks! I'll be headed to XYZ after I get ready for the next leg."

"Great! You can stay with that squak code for now and I'll go set you up for your next leg..."

I feel like I wouldn't be surprised if they offered me tea and crumpets or something.
 
Timmer said:
From the (very) little I've learned, the option is something you should ask for when you actually need it. Otherwise, it's best to ask what you want, in this case a touch-and-go. If they are busy an option may require the most planning for Tower as they need to play for you to touch-and-go, land, or just plain coming to a stop on the runway. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here anyone as I'm just learning :)

While I don't plan to do it, I'm sure I'll annoy some controllers in my upcoming training life :)
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At KPAO, they give you the option almost by default. So I'm spoiled. :)
 
I had one get snippy at PKB Parkersburg, WV. I was fresh out of training and wanted to confirm a runway crossing instruction. Some ATC guys forget some of us fly once a month and don't make flawless radio calls like them. I have not been back to their airport or restaurant since and do not recommend them. I have never had any other snippy ATC guys since in 200 hrs.
 
After a long hiatus, my radio skills are not the best. I have found ATC to be very nice and I have made some dumb mistakes, like forgetting to turn my radio from Tower to Departure and calling for departure 2-3 times with the Tower trying to correct me (it only happened once). I got a bit confused when the Tower kept answering my call, but finally figured it out, apologized and moved on.

I always use flight following, and only heard one exchange recently where ATC got a big frustrated. It was with a foreign student who they (nor I) could understand what they asking.

If and when it happens to me, I will believe that I am in the wrong, apologize and move on.
 
Every once in a while you'll get a cranky controller. Don't sweat it and move on.

RV10flyer said:
I had one get snippy at PKB Parkersburg, WV. I was fresh out of training and wanted to confirm a runway crossing instruction. Some ATC guys forget some of us fly once a month and don't make flawless radio calls like them. I have not been back to their airport or restaurant since and do not recommend them. I have never had any other snippy ATC guys since in 200 hrs.
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PKB has like what, 10 operations a day? That dude should just be happy he has a job (for now).
 
There is one well known controller in our area who believes the world revolves around her. All instrument students are advised to be "glossary" prefect less their practice approaches be vectored to the hinterlands or other less desirable results. Everyone else in the area is super about maximizing student training time in practice approaches and other IFR ops.

Go with the flow, pun intended.

Cheers
 
joycem137 said:
I feel like I wouldn't be surprised if they offered me tea and crumpets or something.
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The delivery would be, umm, "interesting."

I've had more than one NorCal controller offer me airspace clearance, including Class B, without any request from me. They really do try to help.
 
MAKG1 said:
The delivery would be, umm, "interesting."

I've had more than one NorCal controller offer me airspace clearance, including Class B, without any request from me. They really do try to help.
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On my trip up to STS, they cleared me into Class B without any request from me. Norcal is lovely. :)
 
I can't think of a single bad experience I've ever had with ATC. I've heard several people say that getting a Class B clearance through the DC SFRA is impossible, but I've been cleared through twice in about two months...and I'm not even living there right now. Once I asked for because it was pretty bumpy down low and I wanted to stay higher for as long as I could, but the other time I didn't even ask for! I was coming out of Leesburg JYO headed NE, and the controller was setting up flight following for me. He asked, "What altitude do you want?" and when I told him I'd be going to 3500 once clear of the Bravo, he came back with "Cleared into the Bravo at or below 3500 ft." (I hadn't mentioned my altitude in my initial callup because I thought he had it in my SFRA plan, but ah well.) And then a third time, I was just outside the SFRA and got cleared into the Bravo at 2000 and flew almost directly over downtown Baltimore. That was pretty cool! :)

Back to the original topic, I always give my intentions on my initial callup (after I get the controller's attention). For example, "Tower, Skyhawk 12345, five west with Lima, full stop." It's very concise (no extra syllables that I can find) and conveys all the information the controller could possibly need. In this case, "...with Lima, touch and go" could have worked. Then she wouldn't have had any excuse to be snappy.
 
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jpower said:
I can't think of a single bad experience I've ever had with ATC.
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The worst experience I've had was heading south through NJ destination Easton MD. I had flight following from New York, and they transferred me to Atlantic City Approach. After a bit I heard: "Cherokee 4323N, Atlantic City". I did not reply. Then I heard in a very angry tone, shouted into the microphone (as if that helps): "CHEROKEE 4323N, ATLANTIC CITY DO YOU COPY!!!".

I paused just a second to listen for a reply and then said "CHECK THE NUMBER PLEASE This is Cherokee 43 (pause) 32N are you calling me?" He had a dyslexic moment, I guess. He replied in a much more contrite voice: "Yes, um, sorry. Radar contact lost, squawk VFR, have a good day." Yeah, right.

-Skip
 
I like to give the controller as much info on the initial call.It helps in their planning and spacing of aircraft also helps them plan on what side to have you take on downwind to keep you out of the way of incoming traffic.If I encounter a snippy controller I always get very polite and kill them with kindness.
 
Hah. Killing with kindness is a great way to handle any behavior. In the air would be the last place I'd want to get into any kind of pising match. Luckily, from what I've seen and heard, most people are pretty good at what they do but everyone has good and bad days.

My airport, MYF, is pretty busy so my CFI stresses minimum words necessary and efficiency but so far all the controllers are helpful and courteous with even friendly shop talk when it's not busy. OTOH, being busy and a big learning airport, they have little tolerance for not following the rules if you should know better. On my first flight, I heard tower give a pretty stern lecture to a Bonanza pilot who kept stepping over others' communications.
 
MAKG1 said:
The delivery would be, umm, "interesting."

I've had more than one NorCal controller offer me airspace clearance, including Class B, without any request from me. They really do try to help.
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I had a Norcal controller offer me a class B clearance after I had already busted the class B! :)

I doubt that will ever again!
 
My ex-wife is a pilot, and when we'd fly together, if she was doing the radios, ATC would give us lots of odd commands and generally mess with the female pilot. Things like PAO giving a position and hold, and then when the spacing didn't work out have us taxi off the runway instead of having the traffic on final go around, which has happened to me many times. Another time landing at Tracy, the winds were favoring other than the calm wind runway, so we landed with the wind. Some male pilot came on the radio and berated her for landing on the 'wrong' runway.

I've heard ATC mess with other female GA pilots too. Doesn't seem to matter if ATC is male or female. ATC seems to be fine with female airline pilots.
 
RV10flyer said:
I have not been back to their airport or restaurant since and do not recommend them. I have never had any other snippy ATC guys since in 200 hrs.
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I had ATC give me a really rough chewing out down in Fort Myers. She simply pointed out that what I was about to do, while legal, was stupid as hell. She didn't say "hell", I think she actually said "Now why would you do that?" I'm embarrassed enough of my stupidity (with 400 hours under my belt) that I won't fess us. While I did not enjoy the dressing down, I earned it and she taught me something the hard way (not the really hard way which would have involved shattered fiberglass).

I've been generally impressed by ATC. Yeah, they won't give a midget like me the time of day most of the time around Chicago, but they are a bit busy. Otherwise, I've always been treated really well.
 
Rwsavory said:
You made a routine request. ATC probably figured out you were new and he could get away with being rude.
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Yep. :yes:

Make a complaint. Being rude to a new female pilot only serves to drive them away from using ATC. Call the supervisor of the tower and log a verbal complaint. :yes:

There is no excuse for ATC to be rude. It is their job to communicate with pilots, not berate them because of their lack of experience. Asking for the option after making contact with ATC? Really? This is reason to chastise a pilot over the air? :no:

At LNK the National Guard and Air force trains all day. I hear them make requests for the option on final ( and other legs of the patteren) all the time!
 
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In my experience, ATC has been professional and helpful 99.9% of the time. We have quite a few Class D and a Bravo locally, so you can get a lot of exposure to towers.

The only real issue I've had was at my home field. We have a controller there that can be a challenge to deal with. She is long winded, has a tendency to get flustered if there are more than 4 or 5 planes in the area and can be downright rude at times.

The day I got yelled at was one of my first days in the club 172 by myself. There were three planes incoming and four of us waiting to take off. I was sitting at the intersection of two taxiways behind a corp jet who was at the hold line. She had me as #2 for takeoff. I pulled up behind the jet as close as I felt was safe. She called me and asked if I planned to follow her instructions. I repeated what I was sure were my last instructions back to her and ask if I had missed something. She never responded back to me. Instead, she moved me from #2 to #4 by allowing two other planes to pull in front of me from the intersecting taxiway and take off. Then when I got to the line, she had me sit and wait for a plane that had just taken off and was doing pattern work. They weren't even midfield yet. I was so frustrated, I did one lap and put the plane away.

The first plane they moved ahead of me was one of our flight school CFI's with a student. I waited until they got back and asked him if I did something wrong. He just laughed. He said the only thing I did wrong was flying on a "busy" day with her in the tower.
 
ScottK said:
In my experience, ATC has been professional and helpful 99.9% of the time. We have quite a few Class D and a Bravo locally, so you can get a lot of exposure to towers.

The only real issue I've had was at my home field. We have a controller there that can be a challenge to deal with. She is long winded, has a tendency to get flustered if there are more than 4 or 5 planes in the area and can be downright rude at times.

The day I got yelled at was one of my first days in the club 172 by myself. There were three planes incoming and four of us waiting to take off. I was sitting at the intersection of two taxiways behind a corp jet who was at the hold line. She had me as #2 for takeoff. I pulled up behind the jet as close as I felt was safe. She called me and asked if I planned to follow her instructions. I repeated what I was sure were my last instructions back to her and ask if I had missed something. She never responded back to me. Instead, she moved me from #2 to #4 by allowing two other planes to pull in front of me from the intersecting taxiway and take off. Then when I got to the line, she had me sit and wait for a plane that had just taken off and was doing pattern work. They weren't even midfield yet. I was so frustrated, I did one lap and put the plane away.

The first plane they moved ahead of me was one of our flight school CFI's with a student. I waited until they got back and asked him if I did something wrong. He just laughed. He said the only thing I did wrong was flying on a "busy" day with her in the tower.
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Is that at LNS? I've heard there's someone who fits that description up there.
 
Flying to Dallas on Wednesday, we heard communications that went something like this:

Grizzled Old Pilot: "Approach, N123B, with you off Tibuktu, looking for VFR flight following to Arlington."

ATC: <No response>

Grizzled Old Pilot: <More insistent> "Approach, N123B, off Timbuktu, requesting VFR flight following to Arlington."

Approach: <Sounding irritated> "N123B, not sure why you're calling me. You need to be calling Blather Approach."

Grizzled Old Pilot: <Sounding even more irritated> "Well, uh, we always call you, and always have."

ATC: <Sounding resigned> "N123B, contact Blather Approach on 126.125."

Grizzled Old Pilot: <Sounding even more resigned> "Whatever."

:D
 
I always let approach know of my intentions rather than waiting until I switch over to tower.
 
For the most part, I have never had a problem with busy airspace or busy towers. I have had slow class d towers give an attitude a time or two.
 
It's no big deal, just be more forthcoming on initial contact in the future with that facility. Don't take anything personally.

You are going to be more aware of these little issues now, but when you get used to flying more it will seem less of a big deal and you may not even think of them.
 
MAKG1 said:
Or the departure instructions another time "Oh heck, there's no one here. Turn crosswind whenever you want to."
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I got a kick out of the night the guy at APA was bored enough to clear me to land with the option, the instant my wheels left the pavement on takeoffs, when I was out doing night stop and goes. It's kinda weird to hear "cleared for the option, runway 35 Left" only a foot or so into the air.
 
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