Should I still tip?
- Thread starter Morgan3820
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Ok, so this percentage thing makes no sense so I thought about some kind of reasonable model for tipping based on service. Bear in mind I'm using midwest numbers for prices here... YMMV in the coastal areas.
Google tells me that a server can handle 4 tables at once and a good average for a table is around an hour. So let's use the assumption I'm using a 1/4 of the server's time for an hour. Let's also give the server what, I think, is probably an overly generous wage for unskilled labor- $20/hr. Using this math a reasonable tip for a typical outing should be about $5.
I think a typical casual dining outing for 2 for us runs $30-40. I'll use $35 as an average
10% = $3.50 = $14/hr (based on our 1/4 of an hour)
15% = $5.25 = $21/hr
20% = $7.00 = $28/hr
$5 looks reasonable here in comparison, closer to the old school 15% standard and maybe this is how they came up with it?
Let's also consider somewhere fancier like a steakhouse and get drinks. Dinner for 2 can easily hit $100 in that scenario, maybe more but it's late and 100 makes the math easy.
10% = $10 = $40/hr
15% = $15 = $60/hr
20% = $20 = $80/hr
Comparatively $5 here makes us look like we're stiffing someone. Then again why the heck do I pay this server $20 when I paid the server at lunch $7?
Let's also go somewhere by ourselves and just get a basic sandwich and a water for $10
10% = $1 = $4/hr
15% = $1.50 = $6/hr
20% = $2 = $8/hr
$5 here is a 50% tip, overly generous by percentage. However, when we use our 1/4 of an hour assumption a 20% tip only comes out to $8/hr which is below minimum wage in a few states now.
I think the $5 seems like a pretty reasonable starting point. Maybe something like $3 + $2 for each additional person? Am I overthinking this? I'm starting to feel like I'm overthinking this...
Google tells me that a server can handle 4 tables at once and a good average for a table is around an hour. So let's use the assumption I'm using a 1/4 of the server's time for an hour. Let's also give the server what, I think, is probably an overly generous wage for unskilled labor- $20/hr. Using this math a reasonable tip for a typical outing should be about $5.
I think a typical casual dining outing for 2 for us runs $30-40. I'll use $35 as an average
10% = $3.50 = $14/hr (based on our 1/4 of an hour)
15% = $5.25 = $21/hr
20% = $7.00 = $28/hr
$5 looks reasonable here in comparison, closer to the old school 15% standard and maybe this is how they came up with it?
Let's also consider somewhere fancier like a steakhouse and get drinks. Dinner for 2 can easily hit $100 in that scenario, maybe more but it's late and 100 makes the math easy.
10% = $10 = $40/hr
15% = $15 = $60/hr
20% = $20 = $80/hr
Comparatively $5 here makes us look like we're stiffing someone. Then again why the heck do I pay this server $20 when I paid the server at lunch $7?
Let's also go somewhere by ourselves and just get a basic sandwich and a water for $10
10% = $1 = $4/hr
15% = $1.50 = $6/hr
20% = $2 = $8/hr
$5 here is a 50% tip, overly generous by percentage. However, when we use our 1/4 of an hour assumption a 20% tip only comes out to $8/hr which is below minimum wage in a few states now.
I think the $5 seems like a pretty reasonable starting point. Maybe something like $3 + $2 for each additional person? Am I overthinking this? I'm starting to feel like I'm overthinking this...
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3G
Yes.
You are. But in you examples, you failed to consider the server is working 4 tables at once so comparatively speaking the steakhouse waiter is making $320/hr. Good for them, those are wages I can’t swing.
SkyChaser
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Apparently, being a waitress pays better than a preschool teacher! I got $13/hr there, and it was one of the best-paying daycares in the area. I guess maybe preschool teachers should start collecting tips from parents when they pick up their kids. 
Your math is wrong, his is correct.
Van Johnston
Pattern Altitude
I think the 1/4 hour assumption breaks down for the sandwich scenario. Throughput is much higher. And if you are talking about the tip jar at the cash register, that's probably going to get split evenly among the crew.
With two young adult sons who did their time in the food service industry as greeters and bussers, they received a percentage of the tips, so the waitperson does not get all of it. Doesn't seem right to me, but they made decent money for their skill level.
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3G
I guess math in public and martinis don’t mix. Either way, $80/hr pre-tax is a gross of $153K for a standard 40hr/wk full time job. Not bad cheddar for a food service job. Grosses on annual basis better than my salaried + bonus does, in fact.
We probably have better benefits, but other than the 401K match and PTO, none of them have value to me and most I’m not ever going to be able to use ay ways.
You are still off. He already multiplied by 4
GaryM
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Gary M
To further complicate the math, tip income isn't uniform across the day or week. Not all servers get to work the more lucrative days. Tips might be great during the dinner rush, and good during the lunch rush, but the server is likely still on duty during a bunch of hours when things are slow. Servers working breakfast and lunch shifts may never see dinner rush tip income.
I'm not going to try adjust the estimates already posted, but @TCABM now has me wanting a martini.
I'm not going to try adjust the estimates already posted, but @TCABM now has me wanting a martini.
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How so am I still wrong?
That’s his work. Steakhouse 20% tip on a $100 bill x 4 tables/hr = $80/hr in tips.
40hr work week * 48 work weeks in a year (standard work year) = 1,920 hours.
1,920 hours * $80/hr = $153,600 gross income on an annualized basis.
masloki
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Nunya
I’m guessing some here haven’t waited tables. I have. Plan a half hour before and after your shift for sidework/prep (not tipped). You work 5-6 days a week, maybe ten of those hours are at full speed (4-6 tables an hour). Maybe another ten at 1 table an hour, the rest in-between. If you are lucky, you work split shifts in the day where you aren’t working and not paid but you don’t have much time for anything else. And the higher plate prices usually translate to more front of house staff that you tip out to, such as bartender gets 5% of your receipts, Bus staff 2%, Runners 3%. So, your tip of 5% is costing them money in some cases.
On the other hand, I do get very cranky seeing service charges, Covid fees, etc, none of which go to the staff. If you do point it out to the waitstaff they can usually remove it. If prices have gone up, change the menu - not by tacking on some hidden fee at checkout.
On the other hand, I do get very cranky seeing service charges, Covid fees, etc, none of which go to the staff. If you do point it out to the waitstaff they can usually remove it. If prices have gone up, change the menu - not by tacking on some hidden fee at checkout.
OK how about this? You sell me my double scotch, and you sell my friend his double scotch, but instead of putting his double scotch on his tray, you put it on mine and I'll pay you for both. By the way have I told you that you look lovely in red and blue... .
The shameful thing is not that tipping supports the waitresses without the owner being concerned with it, is that one of my wife's coworkers when she taught school used to have to work at TGIF to make ends meet. Your tips allow your children to be properly educated.
Everybody thinks they have a sense of humor. But then they don't all.
Oldmanb777
Line Up and Wait
When I first started noticing people leaving TIPS, I asked the questions. How and why? The how was 5% on the meal, not including beverage and tax. A percentage because as the meal goes up, because of inflation, the tip goes up accordingly. My question is.............why did the percentage go up also? I would prefer the wage set by the market. As some called it the European model. but I have found no or not much tipping common all over the world. "TIPS" are "To Insure Prompt Service", or something like that. I tip on the service i got. Might be a penny, might be 100% or more. Totally dependent on the service.
Everyone gets $5, unless they suck.
Zero for suck and $10 for exceptional service above and beyond.
Percentages is a stupid idea.
Zero for suck and $10 for exceptional service above and beyond.
Percentages is a stupid idea.
Whitney
Ejection Handle Pulled
By percentage seems the worst way to TIP.
It penalizes the servers at the cheaper places to eat.
If service was good I leave $5 per person at the table.
For okay service its $2 per person.
For bad service a nickel total, so they know it wasnt forgotten, but their service was terrible.
Daughter and I regularly have breakfast at a small diner, with cheap breakfast special. We have never once had bad service there, and our bill total is usually under $20, I leave $10 cash under my coffee cup every time we eat there.
Was at a steak house a few weeks ago, there were 3 of us, it was so bad I left a nickel. The server was not overly busy, but he was addicted to his cell phone instead of serving his customers. He was TIPPED appropriately, and on the way out the door I made sure to tell the greeter, and I handed her $5, and said don't share it, pocket it.
It penalizes the servers at the cheaper places to eat.
If service was good I leave $5 per person at the table.
For okay service its $2 per person.
For bad service a nickel total, so they know it wasnt forgotten, but their service was terrible.
Daughter and I regularly have breakfast at a small diner, with cheap breakfast special. We have never once had bad service there, and our bill total is usually under $20, I leave $10 cash under my coffee cup every time we eat there.
Was at a steak house a few weeks ago, there were 3 of us, it was so bad I left a nickel. The server was not overly busy, but he was addicted to his cell phone instead of serving his customers. He was TIPPED appropriately, and on the way out the door I made sure to tell the greeter, and I handed her $5, and said don't share it, pocket it.
I could never figure out why my parents had to pay twice at the coffee shop. Once on the table and once at the cashier.
BOVINE EXCREMENT. The word "tip" with regard to paying for service is NOT an acronym. In fact, words from prior to the mid twentieth century rarely were acronyms. The etymologists aren't sure of the exact origin of the word, but the guess it is related to the notion of a light touch, which in turn came from the ME via german and Swedish being to strike, poke, or touch. Tips in this sense in the language dates back to the turn of the eighteenth century.
-Ron "No, you wanted entomology man!"
Oh, and while I may tip more for exceptional service, I use 20% for expected service. If service is worse than expected I speak to management. Stiffing people rarely fixes substandard service by itself. They just assume you're a cheapskate.[/QUOTE]
So, you have to be a waitress to afford to eat out?
SkyChaser
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No idea because I'm not a waitress, but if I have to tip $10-$15, no matter what type of restaurant or what food I order, that $15 tip is more than I've ever made an hour!
schmookeeg
En-Route
This seems very well calibrated for all restaurants that are Waffle House
Morgan3820
Ejection Handle Pulled
Exactly my point to all of this. I am not terribly cheap. I am not terribly poor. I have worked at public service jobs. I am not trying to get out of anything. But this tipping, it is getting crazy, so far as I am concerned. $100 for dinner for four is now common. $20 tip? Really?
Eventually, people will figure it out and stop eating out. For us, it will be back to eating out is only for special occasions.
Just finished a trip out west and the food bill was astronomical.
Are there any restaurant owners that can offer some perspective?
They can't all be Cracker Barrel...
Eric Brunelle
Pre-takeoff checklist
That's true - sometimes the service at some restaurants in Europe isn't great - they don't work for tips in many countries. I don't stiff the working class (of which I am a longtime member). These people work for tips. Unless the service is really bad - rare in my experience - I tip 15-20%.
I've not noticed a consistent service problem either in Europe or Aus/NZ.
I think what the system is missing is the pre-tip.
Paying a proper wage is far too simple.
Tipping after the meal doesn't give the server the ability to screw you if you tip poorly or suck up to you if you tip well.
The only answer is to also tip at the beginning of the meal to bribe, ahem, I mean, let the server know it's worth their effort, then there is the current tip that you can use to punish or reward them further depending on their service.
You know, because it's far too much to expect people and their employers to agree to a fair wage and still provide good service.
Paying a proper wage is far too simple.
Tipping after the meal doesn't give the server the ability to screw you if you tip poorly or suck up to you if you tip well.
The only answer is to also tip at the beginning of the meal to bribe, ahem, I mean, let the server know it's worth their effort, then there is the current tip that you can use to punish or reward them further depending on their service.
You know, because it's far too much to expect people and their employers to agree to a fair wage and still provide good service.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
It’s also far too much to expect someone to do a good job without telling them ahead of time that you expect it.
Whitney
Ejection Handle Pulled
Even a crappy server can take care of a dozen people at a time. A dozen people per hour, at even just $2 a person is $24, plus their wages, is good money. A good server can take care of 20 people, so that is $40 hour plus wages.
So my scenario of paying $5 person works out to $100 hour in tips, plus wages.
That is really good money.
So my scenario of paying $5 person works out to $100 hour in tips, plus wages.
That is really good money.
schmookeeg
En-Route
This is sort of the GrubHub/UberEats/Etc model. I've noticed more of my orders getting strangely delayed or lost when I zero that tip line, despite intent to tip in cash.
DaleB
Final Approach
I recently spent a couple weeks in London. I got good service wherever I ate. A few places added a service charge to the bill, so I didn't tip at those places. At others the waitresses were ambivalent about tips -- clearly they appreciated it when I did, but all said it was entirely optional and the amount was up to me. I gave one of them around 18%-ish and she looked at me like I was nuts and tried to give it back, said it was way too much. I swear I'm not making this up.
In Germany a few years back I recall the custom was to just round the bill up to the next Euro or so, maybe throw in one more for really good service, and it was considered rude and insulting to leave it on the table. HAND it to the waiter or waitress. That was Hessen and Bavaria, don't know about up north.
In Germany a few years back I recall the custom was to just round the bill up to the next Euro or so, maybe throw in one more for really good service, and it was considered rude and insulting to leave it on the table. HAND it to the waiter or waitress. That was Hessen and Bavaria, don't know about up north.
Whitney
Ejection Handle Pulled
I was in town this afternoon, and stopped to eat at a restaurant while there. As I know the server somewhat, from eating there frequently, I brought up this forum thread, and asked her for feedback. She remains a server at the diner, because she likes the people, and makes very good money. She makes $3,100 per month in wages from the Diner owner, and averages about $7,600 more in tips.
Common sense says she doesn't claim all of her tips on income tax, making it extra sweet.
Common sense says she doesn't claim all of her tips on income tax, making it extra sweet.
Common sense says she'd be well advised to. The IRS will impute unreported tips. A red flag is reporting 8% under the assumption that this is a safe-harbor against further investigation.
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3G
I’ve never left a tip an any country other than America. Never been to Aus/NZ, but lived in Europe and travelled across four continents.
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Counterpoint: what’s missing is the value that drives customers to want to pay a price that reflects the cost of labor.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I'm guessing she's about an 8 or 9 on the beauty scale relative to the local talent.
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$120k/yr, partially tax free. Is the CAD or USD? How does that compare to the median local wage?
More importantly, is she worth $120k/yr?
Whitney
Ejection Handle Pulled
I'll say a 7, but nice smile, and great at her job!
Whitney
Ejection Handle Pulled
Canadian.
The average person probably makes $50k - 70k.
Yes she is worth it, she is very good at her job, and likeable.