Shop planning

[4RNB]

tldr: I want to build an RV10, looking for advice on my shop plans

Background: I own a nice C172 but desire more speed. I have found going 182 route of limited benefit due to small improvement. Was surprised how much I liked test flight with Zach (Vans RV factory rep), now build obsessed. Starting AP school in August of 2024, otherwise retired. To build at home I'd want to get a nice set up ready, have some things in mind. I took a video of the proposed area, looking for further ideas and feedback. The building is a 60x16 three sided shed. I'd likely enclose either 30x16 (the middle section plus one half of concrete floor area), 50x16 (I think best, half the concrete section plus the rest), or else 40x16 (just the rock floor area). I already have a nice air compressor. There is 100 amp service at the building, I'd aim for LED lights overhead, outlets along the walls, and a ductless mini split HVAC system for the whole area. Is any of the equipment for the build voltage sensitive? We have solar at our house, each of our inverters adds a volt to the load to "push" excess generation back to the street. Sometimes we see 253V on our 240V circuits and have to get a fancy transformer to step down the HVAC line voltage. Nothing else in the house affected. I'd probably consider a taller bench system as I am 6'6", aim to have most outlets above the benches. What kind of finish should I put on the floors? I can paint over concrete, or maybe some tile? I think of bare concrete as maybe being too dusty? Should I leave the space all open or close off 10x16 area for priming/painting? If I enclose for paint, how should I evacuate the air? How wide of a garage door do I need for kits and getting the wheeled plane out? The building has solar on it with some screwed penetrations, minimal leakage. I wonder if I should make a flat interior ceiling with overtop decked roof. This would prevent any water getting in and add some minimal dry though cramped storage. I'd consider spray foam insulation for tightness.

My plan would be to do the following, most of it hired out:
Clean up space
Contract out concrete pour
Rough in framing
Install siding
Rough in electric
Insulate
Interior walls
finish electric
install doors

I think this could end being a fun but frustrating project. I think I will cover the walls with other peoples first flight photos for motivation.

How does this space look to you and what would you do differently than I propose?
Video below

 

[kyleb]

Me? I'd worry about building the airplane first, then I'd shift gears to painting mode and figure that out when the time comes. In the meantime, I'd prime most stuff outside. If you're retired, you'll find enough decent days to prime outside, even in the winter (unless you live in a very, very northern climate). Drag the stuff back inside to dry/cure.

My basement is 16x30 and was plenty big to build my -10 other than the wings had to be fitted and rigged with the airplane in the driveway. That's a weekend job (at most), so not a big worry. Personally, I'd install as much lighting and concrete as possible, plus insulation if that's an option. Also, if you have the opportunity, nice white walls and a white ceiling really improve the brightness in the shop. I've never had a problem with concrete being dusty, so that's not a concern for me. The mini-split is a great idea. I don't think any of the tools you'll need will be particularly electrically sensitive, so that wouldn't be a concern for me. You'll need a minimum of an 8' wide door to wheel the airplane outside. 9' would be a lot easier. On its gear, the -10 is slightly over 7' tall with the vertical stab and rudder removed, so door height matters too.

One thing to remember is once you finish the wings and tail, you'll need to store them for a while.

Make sure critters can't find their way inside the shop (the storage OR work areas). They can do serious damage to a project.

 

[Lndwarrior]

Putting some coating on the floor would keep the dust down.

One of the things I didn't do until almost the end was make a rolling cart with 3 sided plywood above the surface. My cart is small enough - about 3ft x 2ft but with the 24" high "walls" on 3 sided I was able to hang about 90 % of the tools I use regularly. Being able to easily move this around saved me HOURS of walking around the damn hangar trying to locate where I set something down. This becomes especially important once the wings go on goes every friggin tool is always on the opposite side of the airplane.

A quiet air compressor will not annoy neighbors or family and may allow you to work late or early hours.

Your plan to have a heated and cooled space is ideal. I had many days that were too cold or too hot to work.

Mini fridge is mandatory as well as a coffee maker.

And finally, just bite the bullet and buy all the specialty tools. There are diy solutions for a lot of stuff, but having the right tool saved time and aggravation. You can buy a lot of the tools used on the Vans forum.

 

[4RNB]

Putting some coating on the floor would keep the dust down.

One of the things I didn't do until almost the end was make a rolling cart with 3 sided plywood above the surface. My cart is small enough - about 3ft x 2ft but with the 24" high "walls" on 3 sided I was able to hang about 90 % of the tools I use regularly. Being able to easily move this around saved me HOURS of walking around the damn hangar trying to locate where I set something down. This becomes especially important once the wings go on goes every friggin tool is always on the opposite side of the airplane.

A quiet air compressor will not annoy neighbors or family and may allow you to work late or early hours.

Your plan to have a heated and cooled space is ideal. I had many days that were too cold or too hot to work.

Mini fridge is mandatory as well as a coffee maker.

And finally, just bite the bullet and buy all the specialty tools. There are diy solutions for a lot of stuff, but having the right tool saved time and aggravation. You can buy a lot of the tools used on the Vans forum.

Neat idea on the tool cart. Do you still have it such that you can post a photo? I assume you are talking about something more or better than this? https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...UIaXPujvX7FzPguNJ0o_YF1DVUOm6n8hoCcukQAvD_BwE

 

[Tools]

This can be as comprehensive as a plane… so…

1. Keep you eye on the target, getting a plane built.

So there I was… watching my dad build a plane. Has crap for tools, hacksaw, file and bench vise. Hellifimgonna do that. Dad built a BEAUTIFUL Hatz. EIGHTEEN YEARS into my Piet project my 18 yr old son said “Dad, I can pay for one quicker than you can build one, I wanna learn to fly”. So I got a callsign out of the effort and bought a Piet!!

Sidebar: I DO have an AMAZING collection of tools… but I haven’t built a plane. Just food for thought

2. Insofar as quiet air compressor, find a used Quincy. They run slow, quiet and FOREVER. And ever and ever. And ever.

3. I don’t care what you make in the shop… drill press, bench grinder, bandsaw, air compressor and get some clamps if you can find them before I get to ‘em. Then you can start getting every other tool know to man.

4. The Bob Vaughn rule of thumb is that you need 12’ more shop space every year. Plan accordingly.

I know a guy who built a beautiful RV-8 in like 16 months. Didn’t overthink anything, just built it. I overthink everything… about to finish a EIGHT YEAR Starduster repair project and just got serious about finishing a model airplane I started IN HIGH SCHOOL… Did I mention I have an amazing set of tools? Geesh…

Have fun!!!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

An inflatable paint booth is an option for when you get to that stage - filtered air - no overspray on everything in the shop.

 

[Racerx]

I overthink everything…

I too suffer from paralysis by analysis. Thinking way too long about the best way to do something in pursuit of perfection.

Luckily once I figure out how I'm gonna do it, it usually gets done pretty quick.

 

[tsts4]

I too suffer from paralysis by analysis. Thinking way too long about the best way to do something in pursuit of perfection.

Luckily once I figure out how I'm gonna do it, it usually gets done pretty quick.

The flip side to this is going off plans and making a bunch of mods, especially ones that aren't common. These can add significant amount of unforecast time to a build.

 

[Lndwarrior]

Neat idea on the tool cart. Do you still have it such that you can post a photo? I assume you are talking about something more or better than this? https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...UIaXPujvX7FzPguNJ0o_YF1DVUOm6n8hoCcukQAvD_BwE

Don't have a pic, but started with something like this but without the handle on one side. Then I bolted pieces of plywood on the sides and back such that they sit up about 18" from the top of the table.

I'll try and remember to get a pic this weekend

 

[tsts4]

Putting some coating on the floor would keep the dust down.

One of the things I didn't do until almost the end was make a rolling cart with 3 sided plywood above the surface. My cart is small enough - about 3ft x 2ft but with the 24" high "walls" on 3 sided I was able to hang about 90 % of the tools I use regularly. Being able to easily move this around saved me HOURS of walking around the damn hangar trying to locate where I set something down. This becomes especially important once the wings go on goes every friggin tool is always on the opposite side of the airplane.

A quiet air compressor will not annoy neighbors or family and may allow you to work late or early hours.

Your plan to have a heated and cooled space is ideal. I had many days that were too cold or too hot to work.

Mini fridge is mandatory as well as a coffee maker.

And finally, just bite the bullet and buy all the specialty tools. There are diy solutions for a lot of stuff, but having the right tool saved time and aggravation. You can buy a lot of the tools used on the Vans forum.

To piggyback on this. Since you're planning to build an RV-10, if you don't know. there are RV specific tool kits out there. Hawk the VAF classifieds as they come up for sale time to time from builders who abandon their projects or have finished and no longer feel the need to retain all of it. Plus there's a ton of posts on VAF specifically about tools - the search function is your friend here. There are going to be additional tools that you're going to want that won't be in the basic tool RV-10 kit -- like a tungsten bucking bar, certain rivet sets/ dimple dies, etc. And you'll want additional 3/32 clecos. I bought a tool cart similar to this and found it quite useful. As far as compressors, IMO the important thing is tank volume (the bigger the better but absolutely not less than 25 gal) then oil lubed, belt driven vs oiless.

 

[CJones]

As far as compressors, IMO the important thing is tank volume (the bigger the better but absolutely not less than 25 gal) then oil lubed, belt driven vs oiless.

And recovery/flow volume as well.

 

[4RNB]

And recovery/flow volume as well.

I have a 5HP 240V hardwired in compressor that gives me a lot of CFM, not sure exact figures, but there is no way this is not enough compressor by anything measured.

 

[4RNB]

To piggyback on this. Since you're planning to build an RV-10, if you don't know. there are RV specific tool kits out there. Hawk the VAF classifieds as they come up for sale time to time from builders who abandon their projects or have finished and no longer feel the need to retain all of it. Plus there's a ton of posts on VAF specifically about tools - the search function is your friend here. There are going to be additional tools that you're going to want that won't be in the basic tool RV-10 kit -- like a tungsten bucking bar, certain rivet sets/ dimple dies, etc. And you'll want additional 3/32 clecos. I bought a tool cart similar to this and found it quite useful. As far as compressors, IMO the important thing is tank volume (the bigger the better but absolutely not less than 25 gal) then oil lubed, belt driven vs oiless.

Thanks for the ideas on VAF.

FYI, I'm finding better ideas for shop feedback here...

 

[Racerx]

As far as spray booth. I know a guy that took a conex box and trenched in air and electric. Put an exhaust fan on one end and slats to hold furnace filters on the door end. Filters in front of the fan as well. He also put in an explosion proof propane heater when it's cold. Lights on ceiling and walls.

It works pretty well. But those inflatables look pretty nifty.

 

[kyleb]

It has already been mentioned, but work towards the ultimate goal of building an airplane. Having the perfect shop won't get you an airplane.

 

[tsts4]

It has already been mentioned, but work towards the ultimate goal of building an airplane. Having the perfect shop won't get you an airplane.

100%. You need something that you can work in that’s large enough, that you can keep clean, keep your parts and assemblies clean and secure, and has adequate power. Everything else is gravy.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Vapor barrier under the concrete.
Everyone forgets this.

 

[Crashnburn]

Vapor barrier under the concrete.
Everyone forgets this.

Forget about it? That hasn't ever shown up on my RADAR. The air east of the Colorado Front Range is really dry, but apparently there is a lot of subsurface water.

Thanks for the tip