Sexism in aviation?

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I think that this thread has proved conclusively that there is still some misogyny in aviation. The question is whether it is worse than the general population. That is a closer call. It is much better than it was back in the 80's and 90's. It is probably worse than some career fields but better than others. By the time the OP is ready to fly professionally, it will be better yet. There is not nearly enough sexism to dissuade one if the love of flying is there.

I will also note, that not all of it comes from the guys. The most sexist person I ever worked for, briefly, was female.
 
Welcome to POA, coolplane47! I'm a "fairly" (not pretty. :D) new girl to aviation, too, so I can't say that my opinion is worth anything, but I don't really think that airlines as a whole necessarily have a higher level of that sort of stuff. I just think it's a lot more public when it happens. Everybody hears when a Southwest captain makes a stupid, inappropriate joke, but if that joke had happened at the office I first worked at, it wouldn't have even reached manager level, and definitely not the news circuit. For better or worse, that "good and moral conduct" clause in the regs for pilot qualifications exists in peoples' minds, too, and they judge accordingly.

That said, respect is respect. If you want to receive it, you have to give it first. And ultimately, that's the only thing preventing rampant sexism from both sides, and yes, as women, we can harrass guys, too. There'll always be the guys who stare or whistle or make comments, especially if you're just being modest and actually are pretty. (I don't know, since I'm not a guy, but just being pretty may be a form of sexual harrassment. ;) ) Thankfully, I don't have that blessing-curse, so it's a lot easier for guys to just fall into thinking of me as a teammate that's too short and needs help with heavy stuff. LOL

I've actually found that the primarily-guys makeup of GA is helpful as a girl, because just about everyone is willing to help. A couple examples - one night, a random stranger from the flight school helped me push the plane back into the hanger, even though I didn't ask (and believe me, pushing back a plane by yourself is almost impossible). Line guys are willing to go above and beyond. I am expecting that my being a woman pilot will give me an advantage in the hiring process, mostly because there's not that many women interested in aviation. Every person I've met that's been connected to aviation have all been guys except my current flight instructor. Not one person has been sexist or discouraging towards me being a pilot, or working towards being a professional. In fact, it's the opposite. They think it's pretty incredible. Yes, they're guys, and sometimes they say silly, gross or inappropriate things, but that's just a guy thing and they really don't know better. (Sorta sorry, guys, but it's true! :) ) Don't expect a guy to act or think like a woman, and you'll be much better off. Their brains have different wirings than ours do and some ...subjects apparently have higher priority than they do in a woman's paradigm. Don't let a guy use that as an excuse to talk or act dirty to you, but keep in mind most guys aren't running around trying to sexually harrass women, no matter what media and special interest groups would like you to believe.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you don't have problems with guys in normal life, if you give respect to the guys you work with, and you respect yourself and don't do stupid, flirty or inappropriate things, you'll be fine and you'll get along great with the fellow pilots you work with, whether they're a guy or a girl.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for 'em! :D They may not be worth anything, as I don't see the apparently rampant sexist taint to the replies so far, so I may have been born without that gauge or sensor or something. :)
 
SkyChaser said:
Welcome to POA, coolplane47! I'm a "fairly" (not pretty. :D) new girl to aviation, too, so I can't say that my opinion is worth anything, but I don't really think that airlines as a whole necessarily have a higher level of that sort of stuff. I just think it's a lot more public when it happens. Everybody hears when a Southwest captain makes a stupid, inappropriate joke, but if that joke had happened at the office I first worked at, it wouldn't have even reached manager level, and definitely not the news circuit. For better or worse, that "good and moral conduct" clause in the regs for pilot qualifications exists in peoples' minds, too, and they judge accordingly.

That said, respect is respect. If you want to receive it, you have to give it first. And ultimately, that's the only thing preventing rampant sexism from both sides, and yes, as women, we can harrass guys, too. There'll always be the guys who stare or whistle or make comments, especially if you're just being modest and actually are pretty. (I don't know, since I'm not a guy, but just being pretty may be a form of sexual harrassment. ;) ) Thankfully, I don't have that blessing-curse, so it's a lot easier for guys to just fall into thinking of me as a teammate that's too short and needs help with heavy stuff. LOL

I've actually found that the primarily-guys makeup of GA is helpful as a girl, because just about everyone is willing to help. A couple examples - one night, a random stranger from the flight school helped me push the plane back into the hanger, even though I didn't ask (and believe me, pushing back a plane by yourself is almost impossible). Line guys are willing to go above and beyond. I am expecting that my being a woman pilot will give me an advantage in the hiring process, mostly because there's not that many women interested in aviation. Every person I've met that's been connected to aviation have all been guys except my current flight instructor. Not one person has been sexist or discouraging towards me being a pilot, or working towards being a professional. In fact, it's the opposite. They think it's pretty incredible. Yes, they're guys, and sometimes they say silly, gross or inappropriate things, but that's just a guy thing and they really don't know better. (Sorta sorry, guys, but it's true! :) ) Don't expect a guy to act or think like a woman, and you'll be much better off. Their brains have different wirings than ours do and some ...subjects apparently have higher priority than they do in a woman's paradigm. Don't let a guy use that as an excuse to talk or act dirty to you, but keep in mind most guys aren't running around trying to sexually harrass women, no matter what media and special interest groups would like you to believe.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you don't have problems with guys in normal life, if you give respect to the guys you work with, and you respect yourself and don't do stupid, flirty or inappropriate things, you'll be fine and you'll get along great with the fellow pilots you work with, whether they're a guy or a girl.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for 'em! :D They may not be worth anything, as I don't see the apparently rampant sexist taint to the replies so far, so I may have been born without that gauge or sensor or something. :)
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Thanks @SkyChaser !
 
EdFred said:
...

Oh, and really, asking for pics of a 16 year old? WTF. Joke or not, come on guys, you're old enough to be her great grandfather.
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I wasn't the one asking for pics (and, I don't believe any one did as anything other than a light-hearted attempt at humor... ), but how was someone supposed to know the OP's age without looking at the OP's profile page... and who looks at profile pages? Isn't THAT a little creepy, unless you happen to look at EVERY profile page of every new poster?

Really, if we're at a place where using every vulgarity in public is fine, and even lauded if it's aimed in a politically fashionable direction, but we find it rude to appreciate beauty in the world, whether or not it happens to be a Rembrandt, fall foliage, a hibiscus flower, or attractive human being, we are done. I'm not talking about catcalls or leering... obviously, that is boorish, unacceptable, offensive behavior... but looking at and admiring a pretty girl, a handsome guy, a toned athlete, whatever... is that really wrong?!?!? There has been absolutely nothing in this entire thread offensive, especially when compared to almost everything coming out of Hollywood, cable TV, and commercial music studios in the past ten years. As I said in my earlier post, if you're determined to be offended by something, you'll find it. The corollary is, of course, if you choose not to take offense, then the offense does not exist. True harassment and discrimination should never be tolerated. A joke about a pic doesn't come close to that bar, nor does anything else in this thread. Think about all of the MUCH worse things folks here have written to each other over the years. That's OK... because most of the time it didn't occur between differing genders? Yet... even the most innocuous stupid joke, crossing between genders, is offensive and harassing? Seems to me that THAT is the most sexist attitude of all.
 
SkyChaser said:
Welcome to POA, coolplane47! I'm a "fairly" (not pretty. :D) new girl to aviation, too, so I can't say that my opinion is worth anything, but I don't really think that airlines as a whole necessarily have a higher level of that sort of stuff. I just think it's a lot more public when it happens. Everybody hears when a Southwest captain makes a stupid, inappropriate joke, but if that joke had happened at the office I first worked at, it wouldn't have even reached manager level, and definitely not the news circuit. For better or worse, that "good and moral conduct" clause in the regs for pilot qualifications exists in peoples' minds, too, and they judge accordingly.

That said, respect is respect. If you want to receive it, you have to give it first. And ultimately, that's the only thing preventing rampant sexism from both sides, and yes, as women, we can harrass guys, too. There'll always be the guys who stare or whistle or make comments, especially if you're just being modest and actually are pretty. (I don't know, since I'm not a guy, but just being pretty may be a form of sexual harrassment. ;) ) Thankfully, I don't have that blessing-curse, so it's a lot easier for guys to just fall into thinking of me as a teammate that's too short and needs help with heavy stuff. LOL

I've actually found that the primarily-guys makeup of GA is helpful as a girl, because just about everyone is willing to help. A couple examples - one night, a random stranger from the flight school helped me push the plane back into the hanger, even though I didn't ask (and believe me, pushing back a plane by yourself is almost impossible). Line guys are willing to go above and beyond. I am expecting that my being a woman pilot will give me an advantage in the hiring process, mostly because there's not that many women interested in aviation. Every person I've met that's been connected to aviation have all been guys except my current flight instructor. Not one person has been sexist or discouraging towards me being a pilot, or working towards being a professional. In fact, it's the opposite. They think it's pretty incredible. Yes, they're guys, and sometimes they say silly, gross or inappropriate things, but that's just a guy thing and they really don't know better. (Sorta sorry, guys, but it's true! :) ) Don't expect a guy to act or think like a woman, and you'll be much better off. Their brains have different wirings than ours do and some ...subjects apparently have higher priority than they do in a woman's paradigm. Don't let a guy use that as an excuse to talk or act dirty to you, but keep in mind most guys aren't running around trying to sexually harrass women, no matter what media and special interest groups would like you to believe.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you don't have problems with guys in normal life, if you give respect to the guys you work with, and you respect yourself and don't do stupid, flirty or inappropriate things, you'll be fine and you'll get along great with the fellow pilots you work with, whether they're a guy or a girl.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for 'em! :D They may not be worth anything, as I don't see the apparently rampant sexist taint to the replies so far, so I may have been born without that gauge or sensor or something. :)
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Wish I could like that a million times. Perfect. You sound exactly like my wife.... one of the strongest, smartest people I know. Thank you for taking the time to write that.
 
@coolplane47 :

Some people on this board tend to think that the corporate HR office is the only place where this issue matters, and since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring, therefore everything is fixed now. This is not true. This is a question about culture. A culture that you are already seeing (sadly) manifest on this thread. Fortunately, cultures CAN change. So stay optimistic. Things are much better than they used to be.

Some people will just want to talk about your looks, and will not take you seriously. IGNORE them.

Some people will advise you that the best strategy is to blend in. To grow a "thick skin". To not make waves. To not call out your male colleagues ("they are just joking around"). To not stand up for yourself and your rights and your dignity. Now, this is a difficult minefield you are navigating -- especially when dealing with colleagues and employers when the stakes are high -- and there is no one right answer for how to deal with it. If you complain, you'll be perceived as whiny or bitchy, and this will be the only thing people will remember about you. If you don't complain, you'll be perceived as compliant. It's a no-win scenario. We are all different, and have to find a way of moving through the world that works for us individually; "blending in" is one strategy that works for many. Personally, I employ this strategy less and less as I have gotten older. No matter how you choose to deal with it, remember that your humanity and dignity matter. You deserve both.

You will feel watched and studied wherever you go. Your landings, your safety record, even your look and mannerisms, everything will be scrutinized more than usual, because you are different and people are curious, and because some will be looking (consciously or unconsciously) for evidence that you don't belong. You'll get used to it, and earn respect from those whose respect is worth earning.

Seek out other women pilots. You are not betraying any kind of "equality dream" by doing so. Male pilots can hang out as a group in a hangar and feel that relaxed tribal camaraderie that comes with being in a space where one feels understood and accepted, and for them it's called "Tuesday". You deserve that experience occasionally too. Start with your local 99's.

Remember that you have lots of male allies in the community too, those who will support and encourage and defend you. Even complete strangers! Seek them out. Seek out mentors, wherever you can. Remember that great role models come in all genders, races, shapes and sizes.
 
MuseChaser said:
I wasn't the one asking for pics (and, I don't believe any one did as anything other than a light-hearted attempt at humor... ), but how was someone supposed to know the OP's age without looking at the OP's profile page... and who looks at profile pages? Isn't THAT a little creepy, unless you happen to look at EVERY profile page of every new poster?
Click to expand...

I look at pretty much everyone's profile (new or old) if they don't have it blocked/private. Some interesting tidbits are in the profile, and can trigger some discussion that wouldn't have otherwise been had.
 
kath said:
@coolplane47 :

Some people on this board tend to think that the corporate HR office is the only place where this issue matters, and since it's illegal to discriminate in hiring, therefore everything is fixed now. This is not true. This is a question about culture. A culture that you are already seeing (sadly) manifest on this thread. Fortunately, cultures CAN change. So stay optimistic. Things are much better than they used to be.

Some people will just want to talk about your looks, and will not take you seriously. IGNORE them.

Some people will advise you that the best strategy is to blend in. To grow a "thick skin". To not make waves. To not call out your male colleagues ("they are just joking around"). To not stand up for yourself and your rights and your dignity. Now, this is a difficult minefield you are navigating -- especially when dealing with colleagues and employers when the stakes are high -- and there is no one right answer for how to deal with it. If you complain, you'll be perceived as whiny or bitchy, and this will be the only thing people will remember about you. If you don't complain, you'll be perceived as compliant. It's a no-win scenario. We are all different, and have to find a way of moving through the world that works for us individually; "blending in" is one strategy that works for many. Personally, I employ this strategy less and less as I have gotten older. No matter how you choose to deal with it, remember that your humanity and dignity matter. You deserve both.

You will feel watched and studied wherever you go. Your landings, your safety record, even your look and mannerisms, everything will be scrutinized more than usual, because you are different and people are curious, and because some will be looking (consciously or unconsciously) for evidence that you don't belong. You'll get used to it, and earn respect from those whose respect is worth earning.

Seek out other women pilots. You are not betraying any kind of "equality dream" by doing so. Male pilots can hang out as a group in a hangar and feel that relaxed tribal camaraderie that comes with being in a space where one feels understood and accepted, and for them it's called "Tuesday". You deserve that experience occasionally too. Start with your local 99's.

Remember that you have lots of male allies in the community too, those who will support and encourage and defend you. Even complete strangers! Seek them out. Seek out mentors, wherever you can. Remember that great role models come in all genders, races, shapes and sizes.
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Thank you! I appreciate all the other women who have taken the time to make helpful comments!
I will pm you @kath sometime when I figure out that function . . .
 
SkyChaser said:
Yes, they're guys, and sometimes they say silly, gross or inappropriate things, but that's just a guy thing and they really don't know better. (Sorta sorry, guys, but it's true! :) )
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I can’t speak for the rest of the world, but it seems to me an appropriate response is “I’m offended by that, please don’t do it anymore.”

As with anything, we are not born knowing what will or won’t offend every individual. Ignorance is forgivable. Ignorant indifference, not so much.
 
AA5Bman said:
Well this is going well. Good showing, everyone.
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A good showing?! Why isn’t anyone on here telling the OP the truth?

OP, if there’s one thing you need to hear and take away from this forum, it’s this: There is nothing special about anyone (man or woman) becoming a pilot.

People turn aviation into some glorified “calling” that is in the blood while the spend thousands of dollars on training costs and years away from home (talking about professional pilots). Truth is, however, that no one really cares and none of us are that special!

I’m also perplexed why you think female pilots are either not widely accepted or considered “outsiders”. Do you really think that the aviation Gods are sitting around the table thinking of ways to keep women out of the cockpit?

Just look at other respected and well-compensated professions: Doctors, lawyers, high finance, etc. All of these have countless woman working in them, in often executive level roles. Do you think that stigma exists against them, too?

The reason why there are so few female pilots is the same reason why there are so few female mechanics, machinists, and home builders: Airplanes tend to be a “guy” thing.

Again, I’m not suggesting women cannot perform these tasks as well as men can; I’m just saying people often choose a field that interests them. Women, in general, do not find airplanes all that interesting. There’s no external forces out there trying to dissuade women from being pilots.
 
I suspect a lot of us men see this topic come up and instantly think of one of those women who are going to be turning us in for every off-color joke or instance of foot-in-mouth.

What I suspect most typical women are actually worried about are the creepy staring/grabby/unwanted advancey/ or just mean for no reason dudes. I'm pretty sure those guys exist, I hear stories. I never see it happen, I assume because those types are smart enough not to do it in front of witnesses.
 
austin757 said:
A good showing?! Why isn’t anyone on here telling the OP the truth?

OP, if there’s one thing you need to hear and take away from this forum, it’s this: There is nothing special about anyone (man or woman) becoming a pilot.

People turn aviation into some glorified “calling” that is in the blood while the spend thousands of dollars on training costs and years away from home (talking about professional pilots). Truth is, however, that no one really cares and none of us are that special!

I’m also perplexed why you think female pilots are either not widely accepted or considered “outsiders”. Do you really think that the aviation Gods are sitting around the table thinking of ways to keep women out of the cockpit?

Just look at other respected and well-compensated professions: Doctors, lawyers, high finance, etc. All of these have countless woman working in them, in often executive level roles. Do you think that stigma exists against them, too?

The reason why there are so few female pilots is the same reason why there are so few female mechanics, machinists, and home builders: Airplanes tend to be a “guy” thing.

Again, I’m not suggesting women cannot perform these tasks as well as men can; I’m just saying people often choose a field that interests them. Women, in general, do not find airplanes all that interesting. There’s no external forces out there trying to dissuade women from being pilots.
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I'm just trying to widen my view and not believe every click bait article that I read. I don't think I ever even mention my personal opinions on this subject.
 
FORANE said:
I don't suspect there was a misunderstanding. Just boys being boys...
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Posted in a thread asking if misogyny in aviation is still a thing. That is just gat dang funny right there. And kind of sad.

As for the question at hand, my experience in pro flying was many moons ago in the early 2000's. My first flying gig was pulling banners. The boss told me would not consider hiring female pilots. He said he'd tried it once and it changed the dynamic among the rest of the pilots too much. Now that's only one guy at one low paying bottom rung company so probably not indicative of the industry in general. But he was and still is an employer in the industry so there's that.

I never did any corporate flying but I've known a few who did. In every case, they loved what they did and said it was one of the best gigs in the industry. And IIRC everyone that I've known who had a corporate gig they loved, got that gig through networking. The position was never advertised. When the seat opened up, the chief pilot would ask the other pilots who they knew that would be a good fit for the team and told them to start making calls.

So the takeaway is networking networking networking. At every gig you get along your path (flying or otherwise), be competent, be absolutely reliable and be easy to get along with. You never know when the guy work the ramp with pumping fuel this year will end up working an awesome gig that needs another pilot 5 years down the road.

Welcome to forum, good luck on your journey.
 
Perhaps I'm as dumb as a box of rocks.

The "this thread is useless without pics" comment was as innocent in this thread as it has been in every other thread it appears in. It's so common there is an emoji for it, for crying out loud.
:needpics:
It was clearly a send up because of an implied comma. #commaslivesmatter

The prevailing opinion seems TO ME that there is some sexism in aviation, just as there is in every walk of life, and that it is no longer statistically greater than in the general population.

Am I reading my own biases into the actual forum posts? I hope not.
 
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MauleSkinner said:
I can’t speak for the rest of the world, but it seems to me an appropriate response is “I’m offended by that, please don’t do it anymore.”

As with anything, we are not born knowing what will or won’t offend every individual. Ignorance is forgivable. Ignorant indifference, not so much.
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I guess I tend to reserve offense for true insults and malicious attempts to hurt me. I don't mind teasing or jokes in good fun, but most of the time in my experience, guys know when they've crossed the line into unacceptable. It's possible that I glare at them and that's what cues them in, but I'd like to think they figure it out on their own. :) It's the guys who go there on purpose that are the problem, and yes, there's been a few I've had to associate with. Guys who unintentionally cross into that territory and then backtrack aren't the problem, it's the guys who live there. I just avoid them as much as possible and make their lives miserable when I can't by being icily polite. Maybe not the nicest stragedy, but it works for me. LOL

I know that there are major fundamental differences in what guys vs. girls find funny. For example, in my preschool classroom, the boys find it uproariously funny to moon each other in the bathroom, but I can count on the little girls to come running to me crying because of it. Maybe it's not so obvious and childish between adults, but that difference is still there. A mature guy knows he needs to filter his mouth a little more around a lady, but a mature woman also knows that men have a slightly more "crude"(That's not the word I want, but that's the one I've got. Sorry.) sense of humor and doesn't let it offend her. If she doesn't like it, she can speak up like the adult she is or she can leave. Just like guys do when girls start talking about shoes or the newest Netflix show or whatever normal girls talk about (lack of that is another of my apparent abnormalities. LOL).

Just to be clear, I'm not saying there aren't those guys who put a girl down or make constant sexual references or try to hurt her career, etc., just because she's a girl. Or that as a girl, we should just ignore it because "guys are guys". The bad apples do exist and when you come into contact with them, it can be ridiculously hard to deal with. But my point is, it's not limited to aviation, the majority of which, if my limited experience is telling, would be happy to jump on the guys being nasty and pound a few things into their heads for us girls.

Again, I probably don't know what I'm talking about. :p
 
The MC has decided to re-open this thread, with the following statement and warning:

This board is meant for all pilots, from aspiring to experienced, and from all backgrounds. Our community is strongest when we are welcoming and supportive of each other, regardless of our differences.
We also acknowledge that these difficult conversations are part of making progress towards a more equitable world. So let the conversation continue, as long as you:
  • Be respectful to those who face challenges unfamiliar to you, whose interface with the world differs from yours.
  • Don't be an Ass. This community is fostered on being inclusive, and if you are unable to do so with this topic then we ask that you excuse yourself from this topic before we are forced to do it for you.
We welcome our new members from all walks of life, and this was not a welcoming that is or should be representative of Pilots of America.

The thread is reopened, but this is the one warning that posters will receive. Should anyone cross the line of the RoC, then it will be an immediate warning with points.

Per the Rules of Conduct that everyone has agreed to by being a member here:
  • Pilots of America is an inclusive community. We celebrate aviation in all of its forms and by any and all practitioners. All are welcome here. We may not agree on all topics, but we welcome anybody with an interest in aviation. Exclusionary comments will not be tolerated. This includes discrimination based on religion, race, sexual orientation, or gender. It is not our goal to be the thought police. It is our goal to make this a welcome place for anybody that shares our passion for the skies.
 
SkyChaser said:
I guess I tend to reserve offense for true insults and malicious attempts to hurt me. I don't mind teasing or jokes in good fun, but most of the time in my experience, guys know when they've crossed the line into unacceptable.
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Ok...maybe “offend” is the wrong word. But letting someone know when they’ve crossed the line into unacceptable is important. Letting it fester doesn’t seem to help. As you said, we really don’t know any better.

paraphrasing of an actual conversation between me and a former boss:
“Tim (not his real name) said you publicly humiliated him about four months ago. Do you remember doing that?”
“No.”
“Don’t do it again.”
“What did I say/do?”
“I don’t know, but don’t do it again.”
“OK. Try to let me know sooner next time, and/or find out what the actual issue was, so I can figure out what not to do.”
 
coolplane47 said:
Hi Y'all!

I'm a pretty new female student pilot hoping to pursue a career in corporate aviation.
Just curious if sexism/misogyny towards women is still a common problem in professional aviation. Has anyone had any experiences with this? I have read several articles that make this sound like a huge issue, but I know that not everything you read on the internet is true (to quote Abraham Lincoln!) and I would like to get a broader view of the subject.

To all the guys reading this: Please don't be offended! So far, everyone I have met in aviation (part 61 training at a non-towered airport + gliding) has been 110% kind, encouraging, and supportive.

Thanks in advance!
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I'm not in the aviation industry, so I don't have much to add other than welcome to flight, and PoA.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I'm not in the aviation industry, so I don't have much to add other than welcome to flight, and PoA.
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Agreed. I'm just a community private pilot and have been one for over 50 years, but I'll say that the OP is welcome in my little corner of the world anytime.

My ex-CPA who is now my CFI has about 15 students at the high school level who have gone through ground school with him and are now at various stages of the training process. He has a sub-group labeled "TYFS" (too young for solo). A little over half of those 18 students are female, including the daughter of the comptroller of my business (who herself got her pilot's license at age 19). To be honest...except for the context of this thread...I don't know anyone who sees any of that as a big deal. Just another group of pilots. Gender is irrelevant.
 
coolplane47 said:
Hi Y'all!

I'm a pretty new female student pilot hoping to pursue a career in corporate aviation.
Just curious if sexism/misogyny towards women is still a common problem in professional aviation. Has anyone had any experiences with this? I have read several articles that make this sound like a huge issue, but I know that not everything you read on the internet is true (to quote Abraham Lincoln!) and I would like to get a broader view of the subject.

To all the guys reading this: Please don't be offended! So far, everyone I have met in aviation (part 61 training at a non-towered airport + gliding) has been 110% kind, encouraging, and supportive.

Thanks in advance!
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Hi Coolplane47,

Welcome to POA. I think you may have found the answer to your question in the posts in this thread.

Here is the bottom line, your right to employment is protected by law, no company can discriminate against you because you are female. Most companies, especially for positions like pilots, engineers and other male dominated fields welcome women and work hard to make sure they are valued employees. If you get into a situation where you are made to feel uncomfortable you need to speak up and these companies, most of them, will bend over backward to make it right. If they don't, leave. If it's real egregious and they won't help you, you can sue but I doubt it would ever need to get to that, in fact I doubt you would ever have an issue.

I think amongst the answers here you've gotten some great takes on it, from female pilots who have lived/ are living the dream. They said it's ALMOST non existent, and I believe that. My wife is an engineer, as am I. She started working for military contractors in the 80s and ran into some real jerks, one guy told her she was taking a job away from a guy who needed it. She gave it right back to him, didn't take any crap and that was the end of it.

From your interaction in this thread, I don't think you will have any issues, just remember there are a lot of miserable people out there, rather than let them upset you, feel sorry for them and move on.

Work hard at school, get good grades, get to the airport and take a discovery flight if you haven't already. Shun the jerks, look for mentors. You'll do well and have a fulfilling career. Be fearless.
 
Yes, there is sexism in the aviation world. Probably more than the average career. I think some of the others members demonstrated that.
But it is obviously not insurmountable. Don’t let any of the guys get away with their small underhanded comments. I hope you do well. Good luck.
 
Let me add that some of the awkward comments I have received have come from women. I think that people of both genders occasionally blurt out something because they don't know quite how to react when confronted with a situation they don't expect. 99% of the time they don't mean anything nasty. Also, men face the same thing when they are in a role that's traditionally female. I flew an air ambulance while working with a male flight nurse. This caused a little confusion at times, but we both had a sense of humor about it.
 
Lndwarrior said:
If you read the post as "pretty" and not "pretty new", your probably someone she should be worried about....
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Given the fact that grammatical skills are noticeably absent in a large percentage of online writing these days (including the incorrect usage of "your" in the post quoted above), it seems forgiveable that I misinterpreted the lack of a comma in the original post, and read it as if there was a comma present. According to current internet protocol as described by a close friend's teenaged daughter, punctuation is considered rude in online textual communication, so I tend to insert it mentally where it is absent. Also, in my original reply, I even called attention to the fact that I may be misinterpreting the meaning. Trust me... I am not someone anyone needs to worry about.

I would welcome the moderators' clarification as to what statements in this thread were even remotely non-inclusive of any individuals.
 
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MuseChaser said:
Given the fact that grammatical skills are noticeably absent in a large percentage of online writing these days (including the incorrect usage of "your" in the post quoted above), it seems forgiveable that I misinterpreted the lack of a comma in the original post, and read it as if there was a comma present. According to current internet protocol as described by a close friend's teenaged daughter, punctuation is considered rude in online textual communication, so I tend to insert it mentally where it is absent. Also, in my original reply, I even called attention to the fact that I may be misinterpreting the meaning. Trust me... I am not someone anyone needs to worry about.

I would welcome the moderators' clarification as to what statements in this thread were even remotely non-inclusive of any individuals.
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Asking for clarification is a waste of your time because they don’t care what you think and you are free to go **** off. In my experience...



to the OP:

I’m approaching the 27th anniversary of starting my aviation career. I have worked for three 135 companies, four airlines, two part 91 corporate flight departments and several other jobs to fill in the gaps.

When I started my aviation journey I hired a female instructor because she was, without a doubt, the best working at the airport. Some of my best and most lasting friendships in aviation have been women. Some have left active flying to raise kids, some are wide body captains and some have managed to do both.

Your career can be whatever you desire it to be but I can guarantee you will occasionally meet some prick that judges you based on your gender. I hope it would be very rare... based on the conversations with my female peers it is rare but I would recommend you reach out to other female pilots to get a good perspective.

Welcome to POA and I hope you stick around. Good luck in your career. I can tell you it is the most frustrating and wonderful life to live.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Yes, but it's still pretty funny.
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Aviation, and therefore this board, is mostly guys. If she was going to get an answer, it would include the responses of men.

I'll say it again in a different way - yes, there is sexism in the world. That includes aviation. But it isn't rampant.
 
Some people are *******s, the rest are only occasionally *******s.
Aviation, engineering (what I are), whatever, makes no difference.
 
bflynn said:
I'll say it again in a different way - yes, there is sexism in the world. That includes aviation. But it isn't rampant.
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I guess "rampant" is in the eye of the beholder and may differ depending on industry, local/company culture, and geography, just like any "ism." I'm old enough to have watched changes taking place. Better than 30-40 years ago? Absolutely! Done and gone? No.

@coolplane47, truth is, it's better than it was and getting better. You'll probably come across some. But like other great women (including some right here), don't let it stop you. Not even for a minute!
 
I’m about a decade shy of his 27 years in the industry, but my experience has mirrored everything @Tarheelpilot said above. You’re going to encounter sexism, certainly, but I think you’ll find the majority of folks in aviation to be welcoming and helpful. Jump on in - we're happy to have you! :)

The only thing I might add is that for better or for worse, you'll likely be memorable to almost everyone you encounter. It's just a function of being in a male dominated industry. I fly for a large airline, and if I look back through my flight logs I might remember half of the names of the guys I've flown with, but I’d probably remember every female. Flying with a woman simply doesn't happen much - perhaps once or twice per year - so you tend to remember when it does. Therefore it’ll be harder to blend into the background, but it can also be used to your advantage if you establish yourself as someone people enjoy working with. Especially on the corporate side of the fence, where that sort of thing is especially important!

Anyway, good luck! In addition to the 99s, also check out ISA+21. They’re focused on the airline side, but as you get a little further in your training, they have some scholarships that might be of interest.
 
Only 6% of pilots are women, and that number hasn’t budged in years. Something is going on. And this thread belongs on POA.
 
When Delta flew an MD-80 full of girls down to visit NASA last year with an all female crew to promote females in aviation, a bunch of grumpy old guys bitched about it. That alone was reason to do such a thing, and reason to continue to do such things.
 
Lndwarrior said:
If you read the post as "pretty" and not "pretty new", your probably someone she should be worried about....
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I read it as “I’m a fairly new female student pilot...”
 
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