Sexism in aviation?

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SkyChaser said:
Not trying to play devil's advocate, but there's "safe-spaces" for women career-wise, too. We just may not like them very much as atypical females. :) The vast majority of child-care/education teachers are women, and in that setting, a guy actually has to follow different rules and doesn't have all the "privileges" that a female teacher has. And usually has a lot of resistance to overcome. (As Musechaser, who actually knows what he's talking about, just said. I need to think faster or I look like I'm plagiarizing people. LOL) Or librarians. I've yet to meet a male librarian (that wasn't at a college), despite the many different libraries I've visited. I suppose you could argue that who wants those jobs as a woman, but jobs where women are preferred do exist.

Personally, the whole fad of making a minority feel welcome by giving them extra perks is stupid, because it's still separating them out as different. But that's just my opinion.
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Not sure about being a devil's advocate as I was talking about social gatherings. I totally agree with you about career fields. Obviously there are segregated career fields on the female side. Men don't seem to muchly complain, though if they paid as well as male-dominated career fields, they probably would complain more.
 
Kristin said:
Not sure about being a devil's advocate as I was talking about social gatherings. I totally agree with you about career fields. Obviously there are segregated career fields on the female side. Men don't seem to muchly complain, though if they paid as well as male-dominated career fields, they probably would complain more.
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I wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse. But I was told that was not a good idea and I agreed with them. But ..
 
Kristin said:
Not sure about being a devil's advocate as I was talking about social gatherings. I totally agree with you about career fields. Obviously there are segregated career fields on the female side. Men don't seem to muchly complain, though if they paid as well as male-dominated career fields, they probably would complain more.
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Oh, sorry, I misunderstood that part, I guess! I never saw the use in social gatherings, so I don't know much about those... :D
 
Ravioli said:
When written with an arrow pointing to poster's avatar, it is meant to mean the poster. In that case the dog in question was me. I don't hunt.

<--- that guy is shaking his empty head
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Ahh! Learned something.
 
@kath -- I appreciate the thoughtful reply. I never viewed (and still don't) view myself as having anything approaching unusual strength or courage, nor did I find any of the teasing (what would probably be called "bullying" today) even remotely brutal. Ubiquitous? Well, yes, it happened often, but so did good things, so that's what I focused on. Although my parents didn't tell me as a child, I had only about a 50/50 chance of surviving the heart condition and eventual repair, but I knew I wasn't the healthiest of kids and I was just glad to be able to... well.. BE! No point in dwelling on teasing words, shoves, stolen lunches, etc.. was just much happier making jokes with friends, making music, cooking, occasionally making folks who used to laugh AT me laugh WITH me and becoming new friends.

I won't tell you my wife's story... that would be up to her. I will say that her childhood experiences were.. ummm... let's just say not exactly how you envisioned them. Not a whole lot positive from back then, in ANY respect, for her. She's awesome.

I respect anyone who wants to help others, and you obviously do. We may differ in our approaches and our views as to what constitutes true help, but that's OK. As a person who spent 31 years (I know... I repeat myself) teaching public school, with thousands of students over the years, and at least thirty one "career days" under my belt, I find the idea that girls in the past few decades don't know that they can do anything they want to impossible to accept. Every day... EVERY day... in school, young girls are motivated and encouraged to reach for the skies, literally and figuratively, told that they are strong, intelligent, and at LEAST as capable as any boy in school. Our boys, on the other hand, receive very different treatment. It is this inequality, especially as the father of three sons, that is no more acceptable to me than the inequality that USED to exist decades ago disfavoring girls. Girls are taught that they are wonderful people and know that they can do anything. Boys are subconsciously taught they are evil and responsible for all of the world's ills. Obviously, it's not QUITE that extreme, but the reality is definitely slanted that way. Definitely. I've lived it, daily, for a very long time.

I agree with you re/ media influence, wholeheartedly. I can't stand "popular" anything... pop culture is anything but. Pop music isn't music. It's a shame media, social and otherwise, is hurting the positive messages girls get in school. We should be encouraging all of our children, both genders, EQUALLY, to explore every opportunity in which they show interest and aptitude. I agree that denying a child an opportunity due to gender is egregious and unforgivable. I just don't think that happens. Unless it's a plane full of girls on Delta... ;)

Thanks again for the reply. Best to you.
 
coolplane47 said:
Hi Y'all!

I'm a pretty new female student pilot hoping to pursue a career in corporate aviation.
Just curious if sexism/misogyny towards women is still a common problem in professional aviation. Has anyone had any experiences with this? I have read several articles that make this sound like a huge issue, but I know that not everything you read on the internet is true (to quote Abraham Lincoln!) and I would like to get a broader view of the subject.

To all the guys reading this: Please don't be offended! So far, everyone I have met in aviation (part 61 training at a non-towered airport + gliding) has been 110% kind, encouraging, and supportive.

Thanks in advance!
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..okay, so I didn't read the thread and I am not sure what went down upthread to cause this to be locked for a bit..

As a dude, mid 30's, my observation is

Sure, male and female pilots are treated differently, but in my experience I haven't seen overtly derogatory behavior.. however given how relatively uncommon it is for women to pursue aviation and how high the "geek" factor is from most pilots women do tend to get a lot of attention.. by this I mean if you were to post in our Facebook group that you're looking for a safety to split time with you'd have a million eager responses.. if I post that I'd get one lukewarm "maybe" and ultimately our schedules would never quite sync.. but, at least one female aviator I know used the "girl factor" to her advantage, the busy CFI who's booked several weeks out can suddenly find a few hours to do a couple lessons per week.. things like that

But I haven't seen of or heard anything overtly derogatory, at least in our local community.. and some of the female aviators I know served in the military flying KC-135.. so that earns some auto-respect. Of course there are some ill placed jokes, as this thread (apparently) demonstrated


**I think what you'll find though much stronger is ageism/elitism.. where if you're under 60 you are a "low time magenta line loser, don't talk to me" and also in this field "money talks" .. and cliches are true. Show up at a fly out in a rented PA28 or C172 you'll be the youngest person there and ignored, but show up in a Bonanza and suddenly you have a hundred friends..

But that's also life, humans aren't free of judgment.. and as long as we stay vigilant of that and generally follow the golden rule and set your expectations right you'll be fine

Good luck!
 
You won't have to look far to encounter sexists or sexism in any career or vocation. Because some people are just twits. But this unpleasant minority should not dissuade you from pursuing your career. While you can't make sexists disappear, you can hopefully identify supportive mentors throughout your career to help you learn, professionally grow, and navigate around those who would treat you other than as a professional. Those mentors will be out there, and they are worth their weight in gold.
 
Groundpounder said:
Pretty funny that a bunch of men are answering her question.
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I'm pretty sure that men are a large majority of who's here, so it's no mystery that we're providing the majority of replies.

When I was ready to take my private-pilot checkride, I was surprised when my CFI asked if I minded using a female examiner, but that was 29 years ago. Hopefully things have improved since them, but as a guy I'm obviously not in a position to say one way or the other.
 
Palmpilot said:
but as a guy I'm obviously not in a position to say one way or the other
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True, but as a guy and as a member of someone who makes up the majority of pilots that's also on us to try and correct whatever sexism might exist in this vocation and to call people out who make the community unwelcoming
 
JOhnH said:
And some of us guys just can't help looking at pretty women, which I have to admit is pretty rude.
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I sure hope that most women don't consider that rude, although staring would obviously qualify.

And remember, some guys that act like jerks just think they are being funny, like when @Velocity173 asked for pictures.
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Now that DID seem rude to me.
 
Tantalum said:
True, but as a guy and as a member of someone who makes up the majority of pilots that's also on us to try and correct whatever sexism might exist in this vocation and to call people out who make the community unwelcoming
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I've read that a few times, and I've got a headache.... that word salad needs some proof-reading vinaigrette ..... help?
 
weilke said:
Has anyone used the phrase 'white knight' yet ?
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Accusing other men of white-knighting has always seemed to me to be a prime example of white-knighting!
 
Palmpilot said:
I sure hope that most women don't consider that rude, although staring would obviously qualify.
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Regarding the earlier quote where @JOhnH wrote, "And some of us guys just can't help looking at pretty women, which I have to admit is pretty rude."....

That got me thinking...

Why do men and women spend time combing/brushing/doing their hair, dressing attractively, etc., if they don't want anyone to notice? Is it just for building up self-esteem so THEY like what they see when the look in the mirror, but no one else is supposed to look or notice? Makes no sense. There's a pretty obvious line between appreciation/admiration and lascivious behavior... I trust that appreciation and admiration are still OK.
 
MuseChaser said:
I've read that a few times, and I've got a headache.... that word salad needs some proof-reading vinaigrette ..... help?
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basically, see someone acting like an idiot then call them out.. or at least don't laugh along with it
 
coolplane47 said:
Commas are important! If I was pretty I would have used my face in my profile pic, not a pink Taylor craft I found on the internet . . .
My apologies for the misunderstanding!
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It was obvious to me that you meant pretty new, not pretty and new.

I loved the pink taildragger, by the way!
 
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coolplane47 said:
I'm just trying to widen my view and not believe every click bait article that I read. I don't think I ever even mention my personal opinions on this subject.
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There's certainly nothing wrong with asking the question! I wish I had asked more questions when I was young. Could have saved myself a lot of grief!
 
MauleSkinner said:
So if it was a bunch of grumpy old guys who opened up a similar trip for boys only, and made sure there was an all-male flight crew, what do you think the response would and/or should be?
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Well, wasn’t that the way of professional aviation for many historical years?
 
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Groundpounder said:
I was not referring to POA posters, I was referring to the world in general. Go to any article about what Delta did that has a comment section, and you'll see lots of grumpy old men bitching.

And grumpy is an adverb, not an adjective. If that offends you.....well......
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And here I thought Grumpy was one of the 7 dwarfs.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Well, the F-bomb is the most versatile word in the English language. It can be used as just about any form (noun, adverb, adjective, etc).
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Funny, I always thought “kludge” started with the letter K. I use it as a verb, noun, adverb, adjective, and invective all the time. It’s the programmer’s utility word.
 
coolplane47 said:
Commas are important! If I was pretty I would have used my face in my profile pic, not a pink Taylor craft I found on the internet . . .
My apologies for the misunderstanding!
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Plane doesn't care how you look. If you happen to fly me to a meeting, I don't care either.
 
I'll just leave this here:

https://ladieslovetaildraggers.com/

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