Saab to be shuttered
- Thread starter kevin47881
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wsuffa
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Guess the Snaabs will have to by Beemers now.... 
woodstock
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Glad Mercedes got away from Chrysler in time. It's like the reverse-Midas effect.
sba55
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Mercedes's acquisition of Chrysler was a pretty bad idea. And it gave us ugly cars like the Crossfire....
Can't say I'll miss Saab. For the last 15 years, it's been a mystery to me why people would be an overpriced and technically inferior car. Must have been the coolness factor....
Ddayle
Line Up and Wait
Saab..what the mechanic does when it shows UP (again) ,what the owner does when he gets the bill. like most european cars.. overpriced , hard to maintain, useless junk when they get old.
flyersfan31
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Freiburgfan31
The old 900 was a cool looking car, IMHO. They were into turbos before they were cool. I liked that little turbo gauge.
That said, I know, anecdotally at least, that they didn't have the longest-lived trannys.
That said, I know, anecdotally at least, that they didn't have the longest-lived trannys.
NC Pilot
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Next will be Volvo. Right now they are negotiating with the Chinese for purchase, but there is some question as to whether they will come to a deal. Unemployment will be high in Gothenburg for a while.
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
They never understood the key goes in the dashboard, not in the console...
flyersfan31
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I always dug that. Kinda like being in a special club, if you knew how to start a SAAB. You had to be in the club to get out of one too (the key wouldn't come out unless you put the car in reverse, which required lifting that barely-noticeable flange on the gear shift.) Took me about 15minutes to figure that out after driving a borrowed 900.
woodstock
Final Approach
I always dug that. Kinda like being in a special club, if you knew how to start a SAAB. You had to be in the club to get out of one too (the key wouldn't come out unless you put the car in reverse, which required lifting that barely-noticeable flange on the gear shift.) Took me about 15minutes to figure that out after driving a borrowed 900.
It's kind of the same feeling with putting a Mercedes into reverse. There's a trick to it and once you figure it out, you're good. The first time I drove one in Germany I had to ask the rental desk to show me. This applies to manuals of course.
And oh yeah, my Benz is a 6 speed. How many 4-door sedans are 6-speed sticks here in the US, I ask you?
flyersfan31
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We bought a Volvo S70 T5 with a 5sp and had to special order it back in '97. There was only one available in the US at the time. They thought I was nuts. "Sure you don't want an automatic??" Like heck!
I am sad to admit that wife's 530i is an automatic with the manual shift function. She was upset about it - she prefers manual. I told her to play with the manual shift. She got tired of that. No clutch, no fun.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
As opposed to an overpriced and unreliable car that is inadequate in the snow and needs to be trailered because putting miles on it decreases its resale value too much. Hmm...
I always liked the way Saabs drove, the interiors were nice and thought out, and they did well in bad weather. They weren't the easiest to work on, though.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
My VW is one. Seems the only 6-speeds are coming out of Germany.
I have a BMW too. I just love the German cars. They are so well built and engineered. I have only ridden in a SAAB so I have no real opinion of them, but if they are like their other Swedish vehicle, Vovlo, then they can't be all that bad.
Does anyone know if this is going to affect Saab aircraft?
RickH
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm sorry to see them go, but GM only managed to turn a profit one of the 12 years they owned SAAB and they were in the red before that which is why GM bought them in the first place. I lost most of my interest in SAAB when when discontinued the '98 in favor of the 900. I miss the old 3-cyl 2-stroke GT too, but nostalgia won't pay the rent.
Well...
...it worked both ways. Chrysler was doing just fine before Dieter et al took over.
The companies were simply culturally incompatible, did not belong together.
wabower
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As the buzz-worders like to say "the anticipated synergistic benefits did not materialize over time, and we were forced to devleop alternative strategies which culminated in our recently-announced decision . . . "
Which in western OK would have been "I think we screwed the pooch."
Which in western OK would have been "I think we screwed the pooch."
All the Saab (auto) commercials this year had the tagline "designed by aircraft engineers" or something like that. Then in tiny print at the bottom of the screen was the disclaimer that one currently has nothing to do with the other.
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
A friend of mine bought a Ford Fusion with a 6-speed. It's a nice car, really.
Trapper John
Trapper John
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That was pretty disingenuous on GM's part, huh?. I think when GM corporatized the Saabs, they lost a lot of their loyal buyer base, and that was the beginning of the end.
Trapper John
woodstock
Final Approach
The funny thing is... most people I know who have American cars love them.. the problem is that they scared off a lot of buyers in the early years and that was that. My parents haven't owned an American car in at least 25 years.
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
Sure, the U.S. carmakers still have an uphill climb. But there are some really decent American cars being made now (Ford especially), hopefully people that got stung buying junk a long time ago will give them a second look.
I dunno how GM is going to turn out. I think shutting down Oldsmobile was really dumb, because Olds was turning out the best cars in GM at the time. I drove a Saturn Aura not long ago and it was a nice car. But now they trashcanned Saturn and Pontiac...but GM still has 2 brands of pickup trucks. I don't get it.
Trapper John
wsuffa
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I would not own a GM or Chrysler. I got burned 20 years ago on a Chevy, their zone rep, and two different dealers. We argued over the lemon law after going through 3 trannies and a torque converter in 18,000 miles of city/highway driving. They had my money and couldn't care less. Never again.
Ford, I would own, esp. their trucks. Ford has improved quality immensely compared to the other US makes. It's the only one that stands up against the foreign competition.
I was looking hard at the Ford Focus (aka Mazda 3) a couple of years ago based on very positive experiences as a rental. For the money, it was near the top of the list (decided on a Civic instead, but the Focus was a close second).
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wabower
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I've had two suburbans for more than 20 years and 200k miles with no significant issues, very few shop visits, very little money spent. Hard to think that any other vehicle would have performed better for reliability and low MX expense.
woodstock
Final Approach
What is funny is... you'd think the American car manufacturers would have learned from the first wave in the 70s/80s... they did, somewhat.. but they followed the short term money (hey, it's a free market) instead of looking long term or at least diversifying.
I agree re: Ford trucks. My parents actually did like their Ford trucks wayyy back in the day. My brother gets a new Ford pickup every 4-5 years - they are hauling horses and all the accoutrements thereof (you know, hay...) and needs a big tough truck.
Ted
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Back up here. First the American cars were the newest things (we're talking long, long time ago). There was a time when Ford was an extremely innovative company. The fact that those brains figured out how to turn out a B-24 an hour is no less than a marvel of all the concepts that they later forgot and Toyota stole from them.
In the 70s and 80s you saw a number of vehicles that were lackluster at best. Meanwhile, imports took advantage of that opportunity to build up a reputation that they no longer deserve, but people who remember getting some of these lackluster vehicles now have brand loyalty to a manufacturer with some good business practices. People have now decided that American cars are junk, even though that really isn't true. With a few exceptions, most of the highest mileage cars I see out there these days are... American. Things you wouldn't expect to see with high miles like a Chevy Cavalier or Ford Focus. Crown Victorias and Town Cars with hundreds of thousands of miles. Meanwhile Mercedes and Toyota have been resting on their laurels while quality has decreased and complexity is through the roof (but they market it as being engineered well, which works for people who don't understand what that really means).
The American car companies have an uphill battle both because of a bad reputation that they developed (which the foreign makers have jumped on and will ride as long as they can), some bad management practices that focus on setting out fires rather than planning ahead, and bad accounting practices that focus on pinching pennies rather than making something that is perceived as high quality (perception is what sells, sadly). All that said, what's coming out of those doors is just fine quality wise in general. There are a few foreign cars I'd consider buying, but really if I'm in the market to buy something else, I'm probably just going to ask myself what option from Ford, GM, or Chrysler makes the most sense and buy that.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
Are you implying that you don't like the cars personally or you perceive them as low quality? I'd challenge you that your BMW and Mercedes have spent just as much time in the shop (if not more) than your average American car. Most of my friends who buy a German car new have not had good luck with them as far as reliability goes, not to mention poor performance in snow.
Trapper John
Ejection Handle Pulled
And that's the part that GM at least never understood or cared about, IMO. Chevrolet and their Zone service people screwed me around over warping brake rotors on a Celebrity I had in the late '80s, that culminated in their telling me that, "all FWD cars do that" and I remembered that.
Honda, on the other hand, sent me a letter on my '89 Civic with 90,000 miles offering voluntarily to replace an ignition system component that they said didn't meet their quality standards.
Since then I've bought 0 Chevrolets and 5 Honda products...
Trapper John
woodstock
Final Approach
Early years of an individual- not the company - sorry, should have clarified. I.e. when people who are now in their 50s-60s first started buying the cars they were pieces of crap. That said, my own first car (that I bought myself) was a Mustang and I loved it. Mostly because it was a Mustang and went really fast.
woodstock
Final Approach
BMW - not once in the 18 months since I brought it home (and I hope that continues...).
The Benz is a piece of crap though. I love it, when it's running. It's almost entirely an electrical/computer issue with that car though - not the "parts". In other words, the tranny has never gone bad nor the engine - but the electrical system and computer bits have screwed it up a number of times. I've not had anything major happen to it in 2.5 years - I haven't made it a daily driver in 18 months of that time though.
Ps. Even though the MB isn't my daily driver, it still makes me smile to drive it - it's still a tight and solid car. It just costs an arm and a leg to service. If the new ones have the same problems I wouldn't buy another one. I'd buy another BMW in a heartbeat though, absolutely love that car. The MB is 9 years old and has about 88K miles on it.
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wabower
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Quality of Benz (late 90's) and BMW (early 2000's) nosedived siginificantly, which opened the door for Lexus. I drove top-line Benz' from 72 to 85, then switched to BMW. After three good ones, the 94 7-series was so bad that I dumped it and bought a Lex 400. In order to sell them, BMW was finally forced to offer a bumper-to-bumper 5-year warranty. I'm told they are better now, but not interested in spending money to find out.
The car quality guys that I trust say that the mechanical quality and reliability of US cars is close enough (as good and in some cases better) than the equivalent imports, to the point that most owners won't be able to notice any difference over their ownership period, but that the ergonomics of the imports remains slightly better. My friend who gets a new Caddy every six months as part of his employment package and is a pretty good judge of mechanical devices says Cadillac has finally started building good cars.
The plan here is to either get another Lex 430 or a 460 in the spring, maybe another Burb or Yukon sometime in the future, and keep the 911 for nice days.
The car quality guys that I trust say that the mechanical quality and reliability of US cars is close enough (as good and in some cases better) than the equivalent imports, to the point that most owners won't be able to notice any difference over their ownership period, but that the ergonomics of the imports remains slightly better. My friend who gets a new Caddy every six months as part of his employment package and is a pretty good judge of mechanical devices says Cadillac has finally started building good cars.
The plan here is to either get another Lex 430 or a 460 in the spring, maybe another Burb or Yukon sometime in the future, and keep the 911 for nice days.
flyersfan31
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The Fusion/Milan is a very nice car to drive. Roomy too. If Ford had sense they'd hop it up and they'd have a BMW-beater on their hands.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
One of the things that I've found about American vehicles (especially those with V8s) is that they are remarkably satisfying to drive, even though they are frequently less "sophisticated".
I'm glad your BMW has been good to you so far. Your Benz is more typical of what I've heard from friends who've had these things. To me, the life of a vehicle doesn't really start until it hits 100k. No vehicle should need much service in that time frame, period. One of my friends has managed to have two Minis and one Audi in the past few years, which have been in the shop so much they've had two of them lemoned and have put about as many miles on loaner cars as they have on the cars they actually purchased.
PilotAlan
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I have come to the conclusion that with Ford and Chrysler, the upmarket vehicles seem to do OK, but the downmarket vehicles use the same cheapo crap from the parts bin.
GM just makes junk cars.
My nephew has a Grand Prix that's about 5 years old. I drove it the other day, and the power steering pump has the GM squeal that their cars have had for 20 years.
My mother had a late 90s Ford Contour that was a piece of junk. She likes in middle-of-nowhere Texas and literally all her miles are highway miles. After 70k miles, it was an worn out, unreliable heap that I insisted she trade it in.
Chysler's upmarket stuff seems good, and does their Jeep products.
I have owned several Jeeps, and had no issues. But friends that have Dodge products that share the same platform have had real build quality issues.
We bought a Jeep Commander a few years ago, it came with a lifetime powertrain warranty. We haven't had to use it, and actually haven't touched anything for repairs.
On the other hand, we have a 2004 Jaguar XJ8, it has 78,000 miles, and no repairs at all. Runs like a top, everything works like the day it came out of the factory, and gives no indication of not continuing to do so.
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PilotAlan
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GM, in particular, is using the same parts bin they have for decades.
Why does every GM four cylinder still have the low-speed, high-torque, starter that sound like it's on its last legs when it's brand new *and which is very intolerant of a low battery)?
Why does 80% of their line use the same crap window switches they have 15 years, and which tend to break? Why do their general-duty power steering pumps still tend to squeal like they have for 25 years?
When was the last time GM introduced a totally new engine that was not a V8?
With GM, particularly, all their engineering money and priority has been in the top of the line.
If you pay for it, you can get new design reliable components. But their general-duty stuff is junk, and that's what turns people off and prevents them from buying GM stuff down the line.
And, why do you see Cavaliers with 200,000 miles on them? Because you can buy them next to nothing and fix them cheap, because every shadetree mechanic knows downmarket GM products. They may still be on the road, but they tend to be rolling piles with next to nothing working properly (including the engine, transmission, steering, electricals, and brakes).
Meanwhile a Honda or Toyota downmarket car will likely be running pretty well at 200,000 miles.
gprellwitz
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Grant Prellwitz
To get this back on topic, apparently Spyker is trying to resurrect the deal.
But so far GM is having none of it and is still planning to wind the unit down.
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flyersfan31
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FWIW, my wife's BMW 530i (2003) has been absolutely 100% trouble free.
So has my '04 Toyota Sienna.
The '88 VW Golf I once had? I have nothing good to say about that experience.
Had '02 and '00 Ford Explorers. No problems, they were 2yr leases.
Had a '97 Volvo S70 T5. A few irritating problems
Had a '95 Ford Probe. Persistent electrical faults. Otherwise nice.
Had a '93 Honda Accord. 115,000 trouble free miles
I've been pretty lucky with cars.
So has my '04 Toyota Sienna.
The '88 VW Golf I once had? I have nothing good to say about that experience.
Had '02 and '00 Ford Explorers. No problems, they were 2yr leases.
Had a '97 Volvo S70 T5. A few irritating problems
Had a '95 Ford Probe. Persistent electrical faults. Otherwise nice.
Had a '93 Honda Accord. 115,000 trouble free miles
I've been pretty lucky with cars.
Ted
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iFlyNothing
I don't know if you've been a mechanic or worked on your own cars very much, but your statement would indicate that you either don't have much experience working on cars or your experience is vastly different from mine. At my shop we saw all makes and models from all countries. Honda and Toyota quality was great in the late 80s and early 90s. Towards the late 90s, a noticable decrease in quality started. Meahwhile the American cars might need a part every now and then, but wouldn't have some of the major problems that you'd see from the foreign cars. I don't know what you define as working "properly." If something's going along cobbled together then that's generally the fault of a bad mechanic. It's more a testament to the build of these vehicles that they tolerate being cobbled together and not working properly in spite of poor repair.
By the way, your 2004 XJ8 isn't much of a Jaguar. That was built off of the DEW98AL platform (Ford), which is a slightly modified variant of the DEW98 platform used in the Lincoln LS and Jaguar S-type. Most of what you've got there that you're satisfied with qualtiy wise is a good ol' American car. Have you driven a Ford lately? Yes, yes you have. Jaguar's been using American parts for decades. The V12s had a GM TH400 behind them (later a 4L80E), plus Delco window motors. The Lucas ignition system was actually a GM HEI and the power steering pump was, you guessed it, GM Saginaw. Funny, I've not had a one of those fail on me, even if they have whined from time to time (although the old Ford power steering pumps whined the worst - also not had those fail on me).
ron22
Cleared for Takeoff
Just to move ths back off topic.
My wifes last car was a Chev Lumina that we got rid of with over 200,000 miles. Car had no major problems or work done to it. I just figured it was time for a new car.
Her current car is a Buick Century getting close to 200,000 miles and we have had no major problems with it either.
In my opinion all car companies have come a all way on quality. On american cars it is just more noticable becuase they did have a time when they produced junk.
My wifes last car was a Chev Lumina that we got rid of with over 200,000 miles. Car had no major problems or work done to it. I just figured it was time for a new car.
Her current car is a Buick Century getting close to 200,000 miles and we have had no major problems with it either.
In my opinion all car companies have come a all way on quality. On american cars it is just more noticable becuase they did have a time when they produced junk.
woodstock
Final Approach
My Mustang had 150K miles when I sold it. No major needed work. Un-needed work, yes, because in the early years I took it to the track. It was a tank.
Good car. Too bad the 18 yr old who bought it managed to total it within three weeks. I was really bummed. Not entirely his fault BTW - someone cut him off and then said person hit the brakes to avoid hitting the person in front of HIM.
Good car. Too bad the 18 yr old who bought it managed to total it within three weeks. I was really bummed. Not entirely his fault BTW - someone cut him off and then said person hit the brakes to avoid hitting the person in front of HIM.