Runs out of gas, family sues ATC

iflyvfr said:
The one area that caught my attention is ATC knew he had a problem and yet they gave him instructions to give up precious altitude. He was at 12k and they immediately told him to descend to 6. Had he said "uh no, I'm staying here for now until I get this sorted out" it may have worked out (he declined the advice to lower his gear much later).

Regardless, another reminder to not pass up an airport that's closer.
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They cleared him to descend; I doubt he need instruction on how to descend in his particular aircraft, and the controller may very well have not been qualified to instruct on that topic, regardless. ATC provides clearances, which a pilot accepts, or rejects. It was his call to descend, or respond with "unable", or a simple "no effing way", etc.
 
I did not read all posts here, so it may have already been mentioned, but....

If anyone is to get sued here (and I truly believe nobody should), it seems like a look into the CFI training/checkout records for this particular type should be looked at.
 
Kritchlow said:
I did not read all posts here, so it may have already been mentioned, but....

If anyone is to get sued here (and I truly believe nobody should), it seems like a look into the CFI training/checkout records for this particular type should be looked at.
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Well, that's its own story... refer back to luvflyin's post #78 in this thread.
 
Kritchlow said:
I did not read all posts here, so it may have already been mentioned, but....

If anyone is to get sued here (and I truly believe nobody should), it seems like a look into the CFI training/checkout records for this particular type should be looked at.
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Don’t know for sure about the Navajo (and I should but it’s 1:30 AM and I don’t care), but there’s all sorts of types that my certificates let me fly without so much as a checkout, let alone any systems training.

The only people enforcing any of that are insurers. FAA doesn’t care.

Ted has to have special training for the MU2 but not for a crap ton of other twins. Same as me.

And probably worse, insurance companies don’t want to fully jump into that deep end for liability reasons, they often don’t require specific training, they just say “must have ten hours in type or ten hours with a CFI” or similar, and they assume (usually correctly) that the CFI will do a good job. If the pilot meets the hour requirements there is likely nothing that specifically said “properly teach all systems, including the following items...” and a requirement to document all of that.

Which means neither FAA nor the insurer will care what his training record was. At most they’ll as the CFI who’ll say they did it right (especially with a dead trainee, nobody around to ask if they’re lying) and that’ll be the end of that.

Besides that, everyone involved in the process will have to admit that some students forget things. Once you add that, the CFI, even if they’re awful, they’re likely off the hook. Right or wrong.

I could go buy an twin aircraft with hideous systems that really need proper training, choose to fly it uninsured until I meet the basic hour requirements, and then buy insurance and never see a CFI in that cockpit.

SOME insurance companies for SOME types nowadays mandate recurrent sim training at SimCom or FlightSafety, but not for all types. And even then, a pilot disinterested in systems and systems knowledge will probably squeak by at one of those places. (Yeah, I said it.) They can document that the pilot didn’t seem to get it, but that may not even make it back to the insurer, depending on how the insurer handles it.

So yeah, “we” do need to figure out what is happening in training, but there’s a lot of types where no training is mandated by anyone. Types that will kill ya quick if you don’t have solid training, too.

With the hiring frenzy on, there’s also the usual human error of pressures to pass people when they probably shouldn’t be, too. Do you risk a multimillion dollar sim contract flunking a marginal pilot, or do you give them a bunch of “free” remedial training, document it, and say they’re good to go...?

There’s many who say quietly that is what’s going on in types that do require documented training. I’m not saying it, just mentioning the possibility for discussion purposes.

Plus every instructor wants the student to succeed. It’s a fine line between giving more instruction and thinking the student will “figure it out” if they barely make the required grade, and needing to put a stop to their career for a bit by saying “no, you’re just not getting this”.

The two mediocre pilots in the Learjet at TEB is probably an example of the outcome of the cracks in the training system. Both had failed rides and such, but had “extra training” and were labeled good to go. Put either of them in a cockpit with a good or great pilot in the other seat, maybe they shape up and no problems at all. Put the two of them in a cockpit together... they stall a speedy unforgiving jet by not staying ahead of it, and smack into a parking lot short of the runway.

Someone will be mad at me for picking on the dead, but they wouldn’t be dead if they’d flown the jet correctly, or even just decided things weren’t working right and did a go-around and a second mediocre approach. The CVR is pretty clear they weren’t really doing it right. Ultimately the Captain takes the majority of blame, his low concern for what was developing and his refusal to take the aircraft when asked, really put the icing on that cake on that accident.

Did this dude have training in this type? Don’t know. Did he have unremarkable performance and need remedial training? Don’t know. Are there pilots who have had both who fly great afterward? Definitely. It’s hard to fault the “lets train them some more” system overall, but some are squeaking past who don’t really “get it”.
 
Besides, even without an emergency if the controller asks you to maintain an altitude you don't want, you can ask for a different one.
In an emergency, you tell him what you are doing and let him deal with the rest.
 
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Sundancer said:
They cleared him to descend; I doubt he need instruction on how to descend in his particular aircraft, and the controller may very well have not been qualified to instruct on that topic, regardless. ATC provides clearances, which a pilot accepts, or rejects. It was his call to descend, or respond with "unable", or a simple "no effing way", etc.
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This is what I meant when I said the descent was at his descretion. At that point in the flight, one engine was still making power, and the pilot accepted the altitude change. It only became part of the accident chain when the other engine quit.

When the event began, the pilot displayed a nonchalance that didn't correspond with his time in type. That bravado pretty much continued until he realized he wasn't going to make the runway.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If the pilot was famous, like John Denver, we could blame the design of the aircraft.
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I never realized how good his PR people were until I had a mild argument with my own mother about that fool.

It went something like this...

“But they interviewed people who said it was bad and he had some kind of difficulty reaching it.”

“And they didn’t interview the people who thought he was a moron and about to have his certificate yanked for alcoholism, and if you can’t operate the flight controls of something you don’t take off in it anyway to do low level flying with no safety margin.”

She still doesn’t believe it was his fault.
 
denverpilot said:
I never realized how good his PR people were until I had a mild argument with my own mother about that fool.

It went something like this...

“But they interviewed people who said it was bad and he had some kind of difficulty reaching it.”

“And they didn’t interview the people who thought he was a moron and about to have his certificate yanked for alcoholism, and if you can’t operate the flight controls of something you don’t take off in it anyway to do low level flying with no safety margin.”

She still doesn’t believe it was his fault.
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That's less about PR and more about how star power blinds people. He was a cool guy, and I like his music, but at that moment in his life, he had no business getting into the left side of an aircraft.
 
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