Roy Halladay's Icon A5 down off of Tampa Coast

steviedeviant said:
I’ll be honest, I think that too when I hear things like this. But then again, just yesterday we had a fatal car accident in our area and yet I never think I shouldn’t drive. I guess it is just how our mind works.
Click to expand...

You might think differently if you were driving 1 of 15 (or so) vehicles in the entire world, and among the crashes were the head test driver and a designer. It gives one pause, don't you think? It certainly, in and of itself, does not unequivocally indicate the end for Icon, but it sure doesn't look like an outstandingly positive development in the Icon story.
 
wanttaja said:
The problem is margins. If you're at 500 feet, two seconds of inattention probably doesn't matter. If you're at 25 feet, it probably does. Similarly, if an aircraft problem occurs...more time to analyze it and prepare if you're 30 seconds from water impact than 3 seconds.

And if you're going to fly at 100 feet, probably might as well remove the BRS.

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...

Agreed. Plus I think that while a given pilot might not want to fly low and fast over land due to the fear of collision with an obstacle or rising terrain, that fear is greatly diminished over water. Couple that with an overconfident pilot not thinking he might lose altitude without noticing especially while maneuvering and you have a recipe for disaster.

I think the plane is probably solid. However as others have noted, the manner in which it is marketed and the types of people that as a result of such marketing might buy it will in my opinion lead to many more accidents and deaths. An A5 should provide reasonable, prudent and careful pilots with many years of safe flying.
 
TexDeuce said:
If it turns out it is all pilot error, why should Icon the company take the hit? It turns out the prior fatality was a bad miscalculation in a canyon not having enough room to maneuver.

On paper the Icon A5 is one of the safest airplanes ever made. If it turns out the plane isn't at fault it still will be one of the safest planes ever made.

There are plenty of planes I deem dangerous enough and give you less room for error. The Icon isn't one of them as far as we know.

It seems to be the way the plane is being flown, buzzing around low altitude that inherently is a much riskier proposition.
Click to expand...

Because.........Lawyers. ;)
 
So stupid question but is it virtually impossible to get out of a plane in water just due to the amount of water pressure on the canopy/door?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This fast and low over water gives me the bumblebees.
The potential to become trapped upside down in a cabin filling with water might beat in flight fire as my top flying fear.

Note: "heebeejeebees" auto corrected to "bumblebees". Here forward the expression will be "gives me the bumblebees." Please assimilate.
Click to expand...
I just thought you were trying to say, what is bigger than butterflies in your stomach, Bumblebees!!! :)
 
SkyDog58 said:
Recall that a Private Pilot can exercise Sport Pilot privileges. Once a Sport Pilot has his certificate, all add ons are just endorsements not an additional rating as with a private. The limitation is that it must be a LSA seaplane. He would have not been eligible to fly a non sport seaplane unless he got an actual ASES rating.
Click to expand...

That.

For most people getting it in a normal plane it's a rating add on to their PPL/CPL/ATP

Not sure why icon didn't just train and test to the PPL standard since he already held a PPL
 
JB1842 said:
Big difference. The car company is receiving billions in tax money and credits. I bet there would be a lot more successful airplane startups if they got the same deal.
Click to expand...

Government support for NEW technology moving to computer use is the standard. Aircraft companies got that years ago.
 
CC268 said:
So stupid question but is it virtually impossible to get out of a plane in water just due to the amount of water pressure on the canopy/door?
Click to expand...

I'd say depends on the aircraft and how much water. Submerged, I think you'd have to wait until the cabin is full to equalize the pressure on both ends before opening a traditional door.

The UH-60 has door windows that pull inward in the event of submersion. Unfortunately, I don't know of too many aircraft that are equipped with that type of emergency egress.
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd say depends on the aircraft and how much water. Submerged, I think you'd have to wait until the cabin is full to equalize the pressure on both ends before opening a traditional door.

The UH-60 has door windows that pull inward in the event of submersion. Unfortunately, I don't know of too many aircraft that are equipped with that type of emergency egress.
Click to expand...

Wow that is scary...so hold your breath and wait for the cabin to fill up with water then try to get out lol

So really ditching in water is one of the worst places to go.
 
Last edited:
In the short clip I didn't really see anyone attempt to dive in... I think i would
 
CC268 said:
Wow that is scary...so hold your breath and wait for the cabin to fill up with water then try to get out
Click to expand...

Agreed - really scary. Considering the canopy tilts up, I am unsure how a person would be able to open the canopy if it's shallow water and the canopy is resting on the bottom. Probably different if the plane were floating a bit. We'll have to see the FAA report to understand what happened and how the aircraft came to rest.

I keep a bottle (or two) of those lightweight oxygen bottles in my flight bag. I don't know if that would have helped or not. And I have a pocket tool that has a glass breaking tip on it. I don't know how well that would work on polycarbonate though. Maybe not a bad idea to get some scrap polycarbonate of the approximate thickness as my canopy to experiment with. These crashes are sobering, but I'd like to learn from them and be prepared as much as I can...
 
Velocity173 said:
I'd say depends on the aircraft and how much water. Submerged, I think you'd have to wait until the cabin is full to equalize the pressure on both ends before opening a traditional door.

The UH-60 has door windows that pull inward in the event of submersion. Unfortunately, I don't know of too many aircraft that are equipped with that type of emergency egress.
Click to expand...

And all that is provided he was conscious. Looks like the plane was flipped inverted, if he was knocked cold, he well could have drowned while he was out.
 
CC268 said:
Wow that is scary...so hold your breath and wait for the cabin to fill up with water then try to get out lol

So really ditching in water is one of the worst places to go.
Click to expand...

I would bet the checklist would have you crack open a door or window first.

edit: or hatch.
 
rtk11 said:
Agreed - really scary. Considering the canopy tilts up, I am unsure how a person would be able to open the canopy if it's shallow water and the canopy is resting on the bottom. Probably different if the plane were floating a bit. We'll have to see the FAA report to understand what happened and how the aircraft came to rest.

I keep a bottle (or two) of those lightweight oxygen bottles in my flight bag. I don't know if that would have helped or not. And I have a pocket tool that has a glass breaking tip on it. I don't know how well that would work on polycarbonate though. Maybe not a bad idea to get some scrap polycarbonate of the approximate thickness as my canopy to experiment with. These crashes are sobering, but I'd like to learn from them and be prepared as much as I can...
Click to expand...

Yea that would be a very interesting experiment. That’s the scary thing is..i don’t think polycarbonate breaks very easily, let alone creating a hole big enough to escape out of. Can’t get out through the door...your pretty much screwed. I think I’d go for trees over water.
 
Zeldman said:
I would bet the checklist would have you crack open a door or window first.
Click to expand...

But even if you did open the door first (which is what I would do) would the pressure of the water allow you to keep it open enough?
 
CC268 said:
Yea that would be a very interesting experiment. That’s the scary thing is..i don’t think polycarbonate breaks very easily, let alone creating a hole big enough to escape out of. Can’t get out through the door...your pretty much screwed. I think I’d go for trees over water.
Click to expand...

Some planes I've flown have inside releases to the baggage doors, so that can be another exit in an emergency.
 
CC268 said:
But even if you did open the door first (which is what I would do) would the pressure of the water allow you to keep it open enough?
Click to expand...

As small as it is, and provided I was still conscious, and in a state of adrenalin and panic,.... good question.
 
CC268 said:
Wow that is scary...so hold your breath and wait for the cabin to fill up with water then try to get out lol

So really ditching in water is one of the worst places to go.
Click to expand...

I don't know, if you survive the impact, I'd say you have a decent amount of time to unstrap and egress. Years ago there was a Velocity that got into a deep stall and crashed just off St Augustine at over 1,500 FPM. Pilot unstrapped and the seas were calm enough that the plane floated and was towed into shore. Obviously all planes aren't going to float like that but I think most, if intact, won't sink like rocks either.
 
CC268 said:
But even if you did open the door first (which is what I would do) would the pressure of the water allow you to keep it open enough?
Click to expand...

That would only be a problem if the cabin was watertight. Water will leak in and the pressure inside and out will equalize. Provided that the canopy isn't wedged, it should open. It would probably be a good idea to have a way to pull the hinge pins, like is done on the doors of those aerobatic airplanes that have doors.

Is drowning a particularly worse way to die than is being burned in a gasoline fire?
 
FormerHangie said:
<snip>It would probably be a good idea to have a way to pull the hinge pins, like is done on the doors of those aerobatic airplanes that have doors.

Is drowning a particularly worse way to die than is being burned in a gasoline fire?
Click to expand...

Good point. It would be good to have a way to jettison or unhinge a door for emergency egress, especially those with one piece canopies.

In terms of dying... I want it to be quick AND peaceful (e.g. In my sleep.) Any other way would just suck.
 
Anyone know if this particular A5 was equipped with a 'chute? Most evidence seems to indicate hot-dogging, but some eye-witnesses mention erratic changes in altitude, like maybe pitch control was broken. If so, a chute ride might have ended better than an uncontrolled high-speed water landing.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Some planes I've flown have inside releases to the baggage doors, so that can be another exit in an emergency.
Click to expand...
There's a better example on hand: SeaRey, an experimental amphibian largely similar in configuration to A5, has its canopy sliding to the rear in halves, precisely to permit an escape if the aircraft overturns in shallow water.
 
EricVKX said:
In the short clip I didn't really see anyone attempt to dive in... I think i would
Click to expand...
That was my exact thought, everyone managed to get their phones out though. Seems to me like now days whenever there is some sort of disaster, a lot of people are more concerned with recording it on their phone than trying to help.
 
FormerHangie said:
That would only be a problem if the cabin was watertight. Water will leak in and the pressure inside and out will equalize. Provided that the canopy isn't wedged, it should open. It would probably be a good idea to have a way to pull the hinge pins, like is done on the doors of those aerobatic airplanes that have doors.

Is drowning a particularly worse way to die than is being burned in a gasoline fire?
Click to expand...
Not quite a plane, but Mythbusters submerge cars in water to test how to get out. Once the car was fully submerged and the pressures equalized the doors opened easily provided they were not damaged. They used the trapped residual air at the top of the cabin to breath, allowed the car to sink and mostly fill the interior and then went for it.

Success required not panicking, using the air bubble, and being patient. Non of it easy to do in a true emergency.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
regarding that mythbuster episode, if i remember correctly the door was just as easy to open when the car first hit the water and there tip was to get out as soon as possible and not wait for it to submerge. im going to go look for the video because i think they busted the myth that you had to wait
 
update on opening a door under water...it just depends how deep you are in the water..heres some results from multiple test mythbusters did https://mythresults.com/episode72

it seems like the steps are try to get out immediately before you start to sink, try to break a window, then just wait while you sink for the pressure to equalize. not much fun
 
mtnflyr said:
update on opening a door under water...it just depends how deep you are in the water..heres some results from multiple test mythbusters did https://mythresults.com/episode72

it seems like the steps are try to get out immediately before you start to sink, try to break a window, then just wait while you sink for the pressure to equalize. not much fun
Click to expand...
So the trick is you must do it immediately before fully submerged or wait for the pressure to equialize.

The special glass breaking hammer is the only reliable way (more or less) to break the window. Not sure how that applies to polycarbonate.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
FastEddieB said:
What about doors with electric locks you can’t unlock once everything is shorted?
Click to expand...

How long does it take to short out the electrical system?

I have seen a couple cars underwater with the headlights still on.
 
It's too early to tell if this will be the end of Icon, but I'd say it is likely. I'm in aviation insurance and know that the underwriters were already skeptical about their business model of teaching rich thrill seekers to fly and sell them their planes. Now 3 of about 20 airframes are wrecked with the chief test pilot among the fatalities. Sure it was deemed pilot error, but if the test pilot crashed in one, what is a rich guy with the bare minimum hours going to do in one? Well, now we know unfortunately.

So if these things airframes become un-insurable, then it's t&*ts up for Icon. If insurers decide to require 500-1000 hours, well, at the Icon price point, a 2000ish Cessna 206 on floats can be had, so what's the point?

And this isn't even mentioning the litigation for this crash. It might not be a mechanical issue, but certainly if I'm the widow (who didn't want my husband to buy one in the first place) I'm angling for that, PLUS Icon's push to put novice pilots into their cockpits. Icon will have to defend both fronts. Which circles back to Icon's own products liability insurer, who will be paying for the defense and eventualy settlement. If Icon company itself loses it's own insurance after this litigation, then buh bye.
 
Zeldman said:
How long does it take to short out the electrical system?

I have seen a couple cars underwater with the headlights still on.
Click to expand...

Fresh water doesn't conduct very well. I used regular flashlights as diving lights in springs (a few times) and they work fine. They rust as they dry out if you don't dry them out.

Salt water conducts much better and would be more likely to short out. Also, 12V systems are not as susceptible to water shorting.

John
 
CT4ME said:
Anyone know if this particular A5 was equipped with a 'chute? Most evidence seems to indicate hot-dogging, but some eye-witnesses mention erratic changes in altitude, like maybe pitch control was broken. If so, a chute ride might have ended better than an uncontrolled high-speed water landing.
Click to expand...

In some of the videos of him flying,I see a red handle above his head.
 
CC268 said:
So stupid question but is it virtually impossible to get out of a plane in water just due to the amount of water pressure on the canopy/door?
Click to expand...

Just below surface will be OK if enough bottom clearance is available. As depth and outside water pressure increase it becomes a matter of strength and leverage available to crack the door or hatch or window open to get water coming in, then it will be much easier to open at any depth, even if going deeper.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Plane has both a 'chute and an AoA, should be super safe, no?

https://www.iconaircraft.com/a5#safety
Click to expand...

Most likely the airplane is super safe. Some pilots on the other hand?

I laughed at the early reports of mayday calls. Got time for that, you probably have time to pull the chute. Of course, if you screw the pooch down low, you probably don't have time or altitude for either.
 
NTSB is on scene ,will not comment on the videos.The black boxes were recovered.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top